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[Issue] Titans and Tracking.

Author
Romandra
These are not the droids you're looking for
#21 - 2012-01-27 19:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Romandra
I can't seem to edit my previous post witbout the BBCode parser breaking, so:

Romandra wrote:

I do understand your point about radial velocity but again, I believe that still strongly relates to the ops posting - XL guns on dreads and titans hitting for max damage on such incredibly small, moving objects seems quite silly.


This is made even more ridiculous based on how the dread and titan weaponry on caldari titans/dreads and 50% of the weaponry on naglfars works: they all hit for incredibly terrible damage 100% of the time, regardless of your ship fit or drugs, regardless of angular or radial or transversal velocity, whenever a target ship is simply "too small."

While I believe this is nerfed too heavily, I also feel like this is much more inline with how things should be for all titan/dread weaponry.

edit: the point is not that titans CAN get high enough tracking to hit small, low-sig, moving targets, it's that they should still be able to do that without such overwhelming volley damage - ie, exactly what capital torpedo or cruise volleys do.

A hypothetical: max-volley hit on a non-moving 1,000m sig ship gets full damage. A max-volley on a non-moving 50m sig ship gets hit with 5% of that max damage.
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#22 - 2012-01-27 21:14:25 UTC

Better Example
https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_kill.php?id=474339

I think it's kind of crap that a titan can casually blast a rifter but my dread is only good for POS bashing.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544

Lavayar
ANGELGARD.
Red Alliance
#23 - 2012-02-01 14:10:06 UTC
I believe all caps should shoot caps and structures not rifters.
Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-02-01 14:12:32 UTC
Wolodymyr wrote:

Better Example
https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_kill.php?id=474339

I think it's kind of crap that a titan can casually blast a rifter but my dread is only good for POS bashing.



And whats the cost difference between a dread and a titan?
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-02-01 21:24:34 UTC
Temmu Guerra wrote:
Wolodymyr wrote:

Better Example
https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_kill.php?id=474339

I think it's kind of crap that a titan can casually blast a rifter but my dread is only good for POS bashing.



And whats the cost difference between a dread and a titan?

What is the point to your question? It's a matter of the size of ship hitting another ship of a much smaller size. Cost really has nothing to do with it. While a Titan should never be able to hit a moving rifter, a rifter should not be able to kill a titan.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

Leer0y Brown
Pegasus Battle Group
#26 - 2012-02-02 19:31:36 UTC
stay away from the dread... Seriously, not even sure why its being lumped in with these titans.

Recently T2 Siege modules just came out; giving a much needed boost to the Dreads, but regardless, a T2 siege / T1 Siege module grants a 50% tracking speed penalty. This penalty fairly well nullifies the dreads from being able to hit tiny stuff unlike there titan big brothers that can nail cruisers etc. Plus, titans long range and ridiculous alpha means that a glancing blow will shred a cruiser.

I do agree that titans in theory should only be able to hit BC and BS ships effectively, however, the way the current gun formula is written, this is nearly impossible to accomplish.

Now that titan's can't DD sub-caps I have a lot less complaints. With log off timers gone, dropping blobs of supers becomes a much more dangerous proposition. +1 to more dead supers.
Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-02-02 19:46:34 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Temmu Guerra wrote:
Wolodymyr wrote:

Better Example
https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_kill.php?id=474339

I think it's kind of crap that a titan can casually blast a rifter but my dread is only good for POS bashing.



And whats the cost difference between a dread and a titan?

What is the point to your question? It's a matter of the size of ship hitting another ship of a much smaller size. Cost really has nothing to do with it. While a Titan should never be able to hit a moving rifter, a rifter should not be able to kill a titan.


My point is when you start trying to compared dreads to titans they cant be identical. There has to be some justification for the titan cost. And what point of the titan sacrificing its tank to be able to do this do you people not get. When the titan is nothing but a giant tracking boat they are fairly easy to kill.
So man up and come up with a way to kill them. This whole bitching about the titan tracking is getting old. IMO they got nerfed to much the first go around.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2012-02-03 06:34:33 UTC
Temmu Guerra wrote:
My point is when you start trying to compared dreads to titans they cant be identical. There has to be some justification for the titan cost.


Hmm, where do I start?

- They deal dread DPS without the need for a siege mode
- They can bridge fleets from the relative safety of POS shields
- They can run six ganglinks without any command processors
- In addition to the ability to fit six ganglinks, the hulls themselves give insane bonuses to fleets - the Erebus' massive armor bonus, the Leviathan's massive shield HP bonus, and the Avatar's capacitor regen bonus are all extremely useful to capitals and subcapitals alike.
- Their doomsdays can put 3,000,000 racial damage on any capital-sized ship

I think the cost is fairly justified!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-02-03 11:23:47 UTC
I find it kinda funny that after motherships got nerfed into insignificance against sub-caps, as did DDDs, people are now up in arms against titans just shooting things at all.

While it may seem a bit silly that titans can alpha almost any ship, it is simply the practical application of a well established tracking formula. We all know that bit guns can hit small ships under the right circumstances. It's just the way the tracking formula is.

The truth about all the LOLmails people is that the same as trying to fight an alpha-bs fleet with frigates, people are discovering that it is near impossible to beat the tracking from all of the ships all of the time. That's the key here.

People scream about how frigs should always be able to beat tracking, and that is true but only against one ship. There is no practical way to dodge all of their tracking unless you are orbiting very fast a very long way away. And we have all known that this is true for a long time.

Some people aren't going to be happy until supercaps are totally useless except for pos bashing, most likely because they don't have a superfleet but are likely to fight people who do. They'll be complaining about jump portals soon enough, and then about clone bays, and then about capitals being able to carry other ships too.

What we need here is a little sanity. If you are in the situation where you are being shot by titans, my advice is to run at 90 degrees to the direction of fire.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#30 - 2012-02-03 14:45:59 UTC
No, the key here is that CCP grossly underestimated us and our ability to mass-produce Titan's like they were frigs .. the tracking formula is "tried and true", but since it was clearly not meant to balance the current situation where a double digit number of Titan's can kill any and all things something else must be introduced to plug the hole.

Why are supers still immune any way, it made sense when they were born as they were intended to be few and far between, but now?
Perhaps a revision of eWar could include a contest a'la what is used for ECM to be calculated before effect is applied and supers could then be granted a high'ish base number whereas other ships have only a few points (or 0) .. in other words make them susceptible to TD/ECM/Damp spam and there will be a way to counter Titan spam.

Either that or removal of immunity through nerf-bat, specialized module or sov. dependency.
Grath Telkin
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#31 - 2012-02-03 16:43:38 UTC
Oh look, another super thread where Andski is crying his eyes out (Titans can't do dread dps and fit 6 gang links, but spin your yarn how you like Andski, nobody can stop the flood of your crying anyway short of CCP outright removing supers, something that they've said they won't do).

There is more wrong in this thread than any one person can address.

Yes, your dread can hit sub caps just fine.


Yes, you can make caldari and minnie caps hit just fine (with missiles) and do tremendous damage.



Yes, you can make a BS hit a frigate with no problem at all.


Its all in what you put on and in the ship.



90% of this thread needs to go back and try again (except Andski, who just needs to stop, its getting ridiculous for this poor dude).

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-02-03 19:06:39 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
No, the key here is that CCP grossly underestimated us and our ability to mass-produce Titan's like they were frigs .. the tracking formula is "tried and true", but since it was clearly not meant to balance the current situation where a double digit number of Titan's can kill any and all things something else must be introduced to plug the hole.

Why are supers still immune any way, it made sense when they were born as they were intended to be few and far between, but now?
Perhaps a revision of eWar could include a contest a'la what is used for ECM to be calculated before effect is applied and supers could then be granted a high'ish base number whereas other ships have only a few points (or 0) .. in other words make them susceptible to TD/ECM/Damp spam and there will be a way to counter Titan spam.

Either that or removal of immunity through nerf-bat, specialized module or sov. dependency.


While CCP never thought that we would produce titans in the numbers that people have done they always knew that things with titan guns would be able to shoot smaller targets because its just an extension of the existing mechanics. And it is in fact existing mechanics that are to blame for the current proliferation of titans into the battlefield.

Agressive use of titans is the only realistic way to even up the numbers in a fire fight. They are a ridiculously expensive hard counter to alpha bs, without which there would be no answer to whichever power block can bring the biggest bs fleet. Is there an answer to titan blobbing ? Not as of yet. But then again titans being used agressively havent been arou d that long.

The point im trying to make here is that the answer is in the metagame. Its not in nerfing the titans. Every fleet has a cou ter, but similarly every idea has its time. Raging because titans have become cool again is exactly the same as all those people screeching about drakes being over powered.

Successful does not mean overpowered. Soon enough there will be an answer to titans and someone will whelp twenty of them in a day. And then everyone will complain about whatever is able to kill dozens of titans is overpowered. Its all cyclical, and its all relative.

For the sake of perspective, remember that alpha maelstroms one shot anything subcapital in game too. But in theory they shouldnt because of tracking and gun sig. But they work just fine. This is the same asthat, but each ship costs billions more and needs a bajillion sp. To be honest im ok with that.

I think that any alliance that wants to win a fight bad enough to exert sixty titans on a single fight is going to win no matter what. Be it through titans or some otherway.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#33 - 2012-02-03 19:25:39 UTC
Valea Silpha wrote:

Agressive use of titans is the only realistic way to even up the numbers in a fire fight. They are a ridiculously expensive hard counter to alpha bs, without which there would be no answer to whichever power block can bring the biggest bs fleet.

Just wanted point out the fights recently where PL and various others have gone toe to toe with the CFC hordes, with half the men, and held the field at the end of the day.

BS spam can be countered by strategy and skill by smaller numbers(counter compositions, people refer to them as). Titan blobs can only be countered by more titans. That breaks the games fundamental rock-paper-scissors balance.

People say that you have to sacrifice your tank to get the cruiser blapping abilities, and this is true. Ignores the fact that you can refit off the capital next to you as soon as you get targeted so as to not lose the tank for all intents and purposes.

Titans are balanced as long as no more than 1-2 are on the field, its when you end up blobbing them that they are broken.

Perhaps a simple solution is to disallow refitting in space if you have an aggression timer? (even the invisible one we get in 0.0).

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Grath Telkin
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#34 - 2012-02-03 20:18:55 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:


BS spam can be countered by strategy and skill by smaller numbers(counter compositions, people refer to them as). Titan blobs can only be countered by more titans. That breaks the games fundamental rock-paper-scissors balance.

People say that you have to sacrifice your tank to get the cruiser blapping abilities, and this is true. Ignores the fact that you can refit off the capital next to you as soon as you get targeted so as to not lose the tank for all intents and purposes.


While some of what you say is true, I take issue with these 2 points.

1) Enough BS become physically impossible to counter, its just a fact, theres just simply not enough people playing eve to counter them past a certain point. The CFC currently contains the largest sum of warm bodies, and has the loudest voice opposed to them. The reason is 2 fold, in that you currently can't be matched simply in ships alone, but you can be matched in super numbers so you simply don't like titans in their current incarnation.

2) With enough caps in a pile, it becomes impossible to refit. You see, I don't expect you to know, but if you were in a gigantic cap ball you'd have gotten that canned message you get any time more than 12 caps are close to you and you try to refit.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#35 - 2012-02-03 20:23:29 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:


BS spam can be countered by strategy and skill by smaller numbers(counter compositions, people refer to them as). Titan blobs can only be countered by more titans. That breaks the games fundamental rock-paper-scissors balance.

People say that you have to sacrifice your tank to get the cruiser blapping abilities, and this is true. Ignores the fact that you can refit off the capital next to you as soon as you get targeted so as to not lose the tank for all intents and purposes.


While some of what you say is true, I take issue with these 2 points.

1) Enough BS become physically impossible to counter, its just a fact, theres just simply not enough people playing eve to counter them past a certain point. The CFC currently contains the largest sum of warm bodies, and has the loudest voice opposed to them. The reason is 2 fold, in that you currently can't be matched simply in ships alone, but you can be matched in super numbers so you simply don't like titans in their current incarnation.

2) With enough caps in a pile, it becomes impossible to refit. You see, I don't expect you to know, but if you were in a gigantic cap ball you'd have gotten that canned message you get any time more than 12 caps are close to you and you try to refit.

I take it your opposed to the thought of forcing titans to be an FC of a large fleet in order to online any system other than jump/warp then Blink

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

low26
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-02-03 21:35:06 UTC
Ever since I started this game anything that counters a blob of t1 ships is always "overpowered" The problem here is that other than a few alliances nobody commits capitals to battle over fear of loosing them. Well tough crap, put them out there to loose like the others do and you will kill some caps.

PL/NC. have allot of cap pilots because they actually use their caps and have active cap replacement programs and therefore attracted allot of capital pilots. Start whining at your alliance leaders to promote cap fleets and cap replacement instead of hording the ISK or RMT'ing it or whatever the heck they do with it.

This OMG he WTFpowned my drake army with capitals is getting real old. Get some balls and some skill and quit crying like little girls..And yes titans can be killed by BS blobs if you do it right.
Grath Telkin
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#37 - 2012-02-03 23:09:50 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:

I take it your opposed to the thought of forcing titans to be an FC of a large fleet in order to online any system other than jump/warp then Blink


Its past the point that a solution like that is viable, think of my alliance. We have over 100 active titans, and we're not the only one like this. You essentially make the ship useless.

Theres too many for such a simplistic solution as that. CCP won't nerf the ship into uselessness no matter how much anybody wants it to be that way, its just something they won't do.

So any actual change suggestion has to be something more realistic thats in the scope of something they might do, and they'll never take the fun out of the ship, its always been in it to one point or another, Titans will stay titanic, even if everybody in game has one.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2012-02-04 07:35:32 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Oh look, another super thread where Andski is crying his eyes out (Titans can't do dread dps and fit 6 gang links, but spin your yarn how you like Andski, nobody can stop the flood of your crying anyway short of CCP outright removing supers, something that they've said they won't do).


I never said that they can do both at once but feel free to keep putting words in my mouth!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#39 - 2012-02-04 10:18:29 UTC
Wolodymyr wrote:

Better Example
https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_kill.php?id=474339

I think it's kind of crap that a titan can casually blast a rifter but my dread is only good for POS bashing.

You can fit your dread to kill Rifters too, you know. They do after all use the same weapons as a Titan.
Cade Windstalker
#40 - 2012-02-04 19:34:17 UTC
Lucas Quaan wrote:
Wolodymyr wrote:

Better Example
https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_kill.php?id=474339

I think it's kind of crap that a titan can casually blast a rifter but my dread is only good for POS bashing.

You can fit your dread to kill Rifters too, you know. They do after all use the same weapons as a Titan.


You guys would know >.>

https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_pilot.php?id=Kejontes

(FYI everyone you guys blew up had fun and we all learned that Titans in system means don't engage obvious bait =P )