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RMT & Botting - pertaining to who does what, where and under said auspices whom

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-02-02 01:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Title:

RMT & Botting - pertaining to who does what, where and under said auspices whom





Quote:
Disclaimer:

First off, I have never botted or engaged in RMT. I will get that out of the way right now (so pay attention forum mods, this thread is for research and discussion only). I do not support RMT nor do I support botting)





My Purpose:

This thread is intended to be a resource for future use. I will tread delicately, because I am certain that providing links to illegal sites is illegal on these forums, it will cause me grief that I don’t need from CCP…and so I will do the best I can.


It is not that RMT bugs me as badly as I let on, nor is it the unfair advantage that macrobots provide. What really frosts my hiney is the unending insistence, both actively and passively by certain people on these forums, that the existence of RMT and botting in MMOs, including EVE Online, are somehow overstated... or it is somehow enigmatic and/or cannot be proved through simple research and google searches.

This post will be FREAKING HUGE, and there will be no TR;DL provided.

The purpose of this resource is to convey one obvious fact, RMT and Macrobots currently pervade ALL MMORPGs to a great degree, and their existence and effect on the game is BY NO MEANS OVERSTATED regardless of what the trolls upchuck everyday.

Quote:

CCP mod forgive me if I break any rules.
I will do my very best not to.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-02-02 01:01:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
PDF basic Introduction (what Exactly Is RMT & How Can We Understand It)


Quote:
http://www.
gelman.gwu.edu/eckles-library/eckles-prize-documents-1/Augustus%20Urschel.pdf




In late 2006, the MMORPG community witnessed one of the most massive scams in online gaming history. The crime scene was EVE Online, a massively multiplayer online role playing game (MMORPG) where users fly a myriad of spaceships around a fictional universe.

One gamer playing as the avatar “Cally” went so far as to form a fully functioning financial institution, which he called Eve Investment Bank. The bank grew immensely in popularity until one year after the bank’s opening, when Cally grew tired of running the institution. Because he had unlimitedaccess to the entire system, he cleaned out the banks coffers and all of his client’s invested assets. The white collar bandit made off with 700 billion ISK (the currency of EVE Online) which, using the game’s ISK‐to‐gametime trading system (which allows you to use ISK to buy $15 worth of gametime), could beconverted to about USD 100,000.1 It was the single biggest online scam in the history of MMORPGs.

Most importantly, this anecdote showed the world that trading virtual goods and currencies with real world ones is a serious economic force.

While the macroeconomic structure of EVE online remained unchanged by this event, it adversely affected a large number of players who associated with the game, and some pointed fingers at the ability to cash out game currency for real money as a prime motive for the crime. This ability to exchange virtual goods for real dollars (or vice‐versa) is a somewhat controversial process known as real money trading (RMT).


the sale of virtual wealth is an economic response to shoddy game design. Not only is it possible to understand and model exactly why most RMTs occur in the first place, it is also possible reduce or even effectively eliminate RMT through better game design.




RMT in MMORPGs Today


The prevailing theme of MMORPGs is the “rags‐to‐riches” experience, where players start out as lowly, powerless nobodies and climb their way to power, wealth, and fame through the game’s quests, stories, and challenges.2 Players on this quest to glory will inevitably acquire virtual wealth during their online journeys.

The practice of buying in‐game currency and items has become so prevalent that many MMORPG develops have taken drastic action against it because most MMORPGs operate on a subscription model. Developers feel that RMTs can potentially enable players to bypass content and cut into subscription profits, so players must agree to the End User License Agreement (or EULA) which are virtual contracts that waives a player’s rights to claim ownership over their virtually generated property. This means that all RMTs conducted within structured MMORPGs are technically illegal.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-02-02 01:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Conclusion: Combat RMT by Improving Game Content


While it may seem obvious to the point of idiocy, games are supposed to be fun.

Threatening players with sanctions or bans may deter some players from preforming a RMT, but it will not fix the underlying problems of the MMORPG. Players seek RMTs when
they are unhappy or unsatisfied with in‐game ways to generate wealth. The simplest solution to the problem of RMTs is to make virtual wealth generation more fun.


“At low levels of RMT, the externality [to the game developer profits] is $0.”34 So while MMORPG developers consider RMTs to be a spreading plague in their online words, it is largely a self‐created one that can be born at small level. RMTs are the natural economic response to boring gameplay. If developers want to see the sale of their virtual wealth cease they should focus on making its acquisition feel more like a game and less like work. If the demand for RMTs is reduced by introducing more entertaining gameplay, it follows that RMTs will be far less prevalent in that virtual world.



Additional Citations

Quote:


An Article In Scientific America Magazine

Quote:
http://www.
scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=real-money-from-virtual-worlds


(you have to subscribe to read the whole article)
A gold farmer in China who plays games and sells virtual currency can earn the same wage and, sometimes, more than might be paid for assembling toys in a factory for 12 hours a day.



Quote:
Scientific Magazine Blog

Quote:
http://blogs.
scientificamerican.com/observations/2011/05/27/chinese-prison-inmates-forced-to-moonlight-as-world-of-warcraft-gold-farmers-for-guards/



Earlier this week, the Guardian newspaper based in London told the story of a former prisoner at northeast China’s Jixi labor camp who spent his days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines and his weary nights forcibly playing World of Warcraft (WoW) for hours on end to build up virtual currency that his jailers could sell for actual money.

The ex-con claims that 300 inmates were forced to play video games in 12-hour shifts. Meanwhile, Jixi prison bosses were reportedly sometimes pulling in more than $900 daily from these efforts. The prisoner also claims that beatings were used to enforce the near-24-hour work schedule of physical labor and WoW play



Quote:
Much more such sites can be found with a simple google search.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-02-02 01:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom

The Ever Growing World Of Macrobots



Quote:
Google Search
Pages: 4,310,000



At the very top is a website, it has it’s own forum consisting of 16,000 messages and 8,794 users. The unique EULA of the site states this “EVE Online is property of its respective owner, CCP, who are in no way affiliated with this site or its products. You are responsible for using any and all feature of our bots and macros which may or may not be affected by a companies terms.”



Also On Their Main Page: ShockedShockedShocked

Recently CCP has been making an increased effort towards eradicating Real Money Trading (RMT) within EVE Online. RMT is the act of purchasing ISK for cash, through dealers on various websites. This is NOT SAFE and your character can be banned or deleted for doing these transactions. These dealers are under intensive watch by CCP and any transactions they make are monitored. Instead of directly purchasing ISK, purchase our mining and planetary interaction macro and make safe, worry free ISK. Making ISK with our mining macro and then purchasing a PLEX with the ISK you make will earn CCP income and is a much safer method. Bots contribute to the economy of EVE by producing PLEX's that provide a cash flow for CCP. The supply of PLEX on the market is higher than demand and the ISK for this supply must come from people who use bots. CCP rarely permanently ban bot users with a subscription, yet they are very likely to ban a bot user with a trial account because those users do not purchase PLEX and do not contribute to the economy. CCP says “Just say NO to RMT ISK” and we agree.




Google Search
Pages: 8,550,000


At the very top is a website selling virtual items and cash for multiple MMO’s. At the top in big red letters are these words “Using illegal leveling and gold service might terminate the account!” Which do not directly pertain to EVE, but since there are multiple EVE Items for sale… you get the point.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-02-02 01:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
But who does what, where and under said auspices whom??





Far to many people hide behind catchy phrases such as this, despite the epic mountain of evidence all over the internet. The truth of the matter is that there is no real answer to this question, because the existence of bots and RMT in all MMO’s have become far to commonplace and generalized throughout. Perhaps once, certain regions had a greater prevalence of these activities, but that time is now behind us. No fingers can be pointed because they are too prevalent, too diverse and too sparsely distributed.

There is no Auspices whom or organization under which these people operate under, operate through, or operate through their help and/or support. From null sec, to Empire, to the trade window in Jita… everywhere is currently fair game. The issue will only worsen with time, regardless of the best efforts of players and of CCP.

The only solution is to implement mechanics that merge game play with ISK grinding, doing so will lessen people’s desire for “gold farmed” items. Only that step can hope to eradicate RMT and macrobots. Sadly, no MMORPG developer seems to understand this principle, and so both RMT and botting is here to stay.

So… all that being said (and if you made it this far through the post) what this comes down to is this argument constantly being presented by forum trolls and RMT/Macrobot users, this “who does what, where and under said auspices whom”…. is a complete fallacy. It is a mask intended to get you asking the wrong question and tie up the truth in verbal nonsense. The truth is evident and easy to find. There is no one person, region or organization responsible.

The people who are responsible are the player base, and most of all… CCP. For creating a game that has such a profound division between “grinding” and “playing” their game. They, more then anyone or anything else, imprisoned Chinese gold farmers included, are responsible. RMT costs them money in many ways that I will not go into here. It would require another ridiculous mega post. But it would profit them in the long run, and enhance EVE Online many fold, if only they better addressed this issue.

In the meantime, we will continue to feel the after effects of these activities. Everything from account hacking to market inflation can be traced back to Macros and the ever growing proliferation of RMT.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-02-02 01:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Signed,
Counter forum troll extraordinaire, Eternum Praetorian.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-02-02 01:02:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Reserved.

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Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-02-02 01:17:43 UTC
i read every single bit of this.

a few things

1. Why do you care so much.
2. why do you care so much


Important. One way to get around it is to get in bed with the RMTers. and creat an alternate auction for real money. you have plex so you know the approximate value. People could cash out if other players what to buy there isk for real money. CCP can take a cut and be happy

Entropia universe do this

The new Diablo 3 model will also be doing this. it could be the future of gaming

I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Ai Shun
#9 - 2012-02-02 01:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ai Shun
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
now go read it and maybe you will get it.


In the other thread people specifically agreed with the generic claim that botting is prevalent in the MMO industry. There was no disagreement on this and the generic searches to find that information is fairly easy (As you have demonstrated)

What people took umbrage at was your insistence that specific people are involved in it, your inability to support that allegation and your attempts to twist it into the more generic MMO sphere as you are doing yet again.

Doesn't that seem fundamentally dishonest to you? You know the impact RMT has on games, you accuse someone and their alliance, refuse to back it up and then call them out on it?

REALLY?

Karn wrote:
Entropia universe do this


And do it very well. I'm not convinced Diablo III is going to be as successful, because they are meddling with the fundamental concept that made Diablo II so good. But we'll see.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2012-02-02 01:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
IMO botting is bad but its not currently 'destroying eve'. It COULD, if allowed to get out of control, but currently it doesnt appear to be.

In addition to that, ccp is making lumps of cash off these botters, and banning them would hurt CCP's profits (and in turn, hurt our game server and updates)

I'm hoping CCP finds a way to 'milk' the botters, banning enough of them and removing enough of their isk from circulation to keep eve stable, but at the same time, letting them keep pouring real cash into CCP's coffers to keep this game around another 10 years

And im no lawyer but, doesnt CCP technically own all isk/assets in the game? (i'm pretty sure the EULA states you dont own anything in the game world, CCP does) and if thats the case, selling isk would classifiy as selling stolen property wouldnt it? =P Theres gotta be a way to take a punch at the RMT'ers

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-02-02 01:32:16 UTC
Their existence also has a multitude of hidden costs however.
But I am to tired atm to go further into that atm. Sad

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Jita Alt666
#12 - 2012-02-02 01:53:52 UTC
Eternum Praetorian for CSM7!
Rory Orlenard
Eve Pilots Revolutionary Army
#13 - 2012-02-02 03:12:57 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
i read every single bit of this.



Important. One way to get around it is to get in bed with the RMTers. and creat an alternate auction for real money. you have plex so you know the approximate value. People could cash out if other players what to buy there isk for real money. CCP can take a cut and be happy



I truely believe you are on to something here. What makes the RMT market work is buyers - not RMTers - if you can figure out a way for us to undercut the sellers i'm in. I am also totally onboard for giving CCP a cut.
Ai Shun
#14 - 2012-02-02 03:26:24 UTC
Rory Orlenard wrote:
I truely believe you are on to something here. What makes the RMT market work is buyers - not RMTers - if you can figure out a way for us to undercut the sellers i'm in. I am also totally onboard for giving CCP a cut.


And PLEX is not good enough?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#15 - 2012-02-02 03:30:20 UTC
Rory Orlenard wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
i read every single bit of this.



Important. One way to get around it is to get in bed with the RMTers. and creat an alternate auction for real money. you have plex so you know the approximate value. People could cash out if other players what to buy there isk for real money. CCP can take a cut and be happy



I truely believe you are on to something here. What makes the RMT market work is buyers - not RMTers - if you can figure out a way for us to undercut the sellers i'm in. I am also totally onboard for giving CCP a cut.


So use RMT to combat RMT? That's what CCP did with PLEX.

Bad RMT is cheaper because it has to compete with Clean RMT. Since Bad RMT uses various illegitimate means to obtain ISK, it will always be cheaper that the Clean RMT market. And so long as people want to exchange $$ for ISK, there will be some people willing to take the risk to obtain more ISK for their $$. It's not a good thing, it's just how black markets work.

RL example: Moonshine. Moonshine is still produced illegally in small stills because the makers want to make Moonshine without paying the taxes that accompany operating a distillery. They are willing to take the risk to obtain more alcohol (for whatever purposes) for their $$ (Money is spent on some combination of equipment, ingredients, and taxes).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-02-02 03:35:21 UTC
Rory Orlenard wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
i read every single bit of this.



Important. One way to get around it is to get in bed with the RMTers. and creat an alternate auction for real money. you have plex so you know the approximate value. People could cash out if other players what to buy there isk for real money. CCP can take a cut and be happy



I truely believe you are on to something here. What makes the RMT market work is buyers - not RMTers - if you can figure out a way for us to undercut the sellers i'm in. I am also totally onboard for giving CCP a cut.


I would agree, but that seems like a distant second to there not being such a massive gap between grinding ISK and actually playing the game. I more worthwhile endeavor would be trying to figure out how playing the game, and having fun, could become part of making the isk.

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Zirse
Risktech Analytics
#17 - 2012-02-02 03:36:11 UTC
Rory Orlenard wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
i read every single bit of this.



Important. One way to get around it is to get in bed with the RMTers. and creat an alternate auction for real money. you have plex so you know the approximate value. People could cash out if other players what to buy there isk for real money. CCP can take a cut and be happy



I truely believe you are on to something here. What makes the RMT market work is buyers - not RMTers - if you can figure out a way for us to undercut the sellers i'm in. I am also totally onboard for giving CCP a cut.



EVE Online 'the game' would die very quickly.
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#18 - 2012-02-02 03:52:01 UTC
OP's conclusion is interesting at the very least, I don't necessarily share the opinion but having another viewpoint to consider is always nice. Too bad its getting drowned in forum drama Straight
Dr Silkworth
#19 - 2012-02-02 04:30:30 UTC
I liked OP. It was simple and not obfuscated. It helped me see a correlation between forum propaganda and RMT. For instance the heavy PVP versus PVE content plainly serves the RMT industry. More crap is coming out of the shadows now.

I like the idea that grinding should be less like work. It would require a radical rebalancing something of the like we have seen in incursions. Downside is this further destroys Industry or at least makes it more of a grind because you'd have to do more of it to make as much isk. Industry seems ripe for further future botting. Maybe it would get so bad that only RMT sites could sell affordable hulls and such. Hauling seems to need a major rebalanced to reduce this ugly grind that future industry is lined up for.

Another ugly grind is ship fitting, Some changes a while back on the fitting screen sure helped but not enough. I'd like to just make bulk purchases off of a saved fitting but this would stimulate RMT because it would make it easier to spend large sums of isk.

Well it just looks like, if we want to minimize botting we need to ax pvp and turn this game around into asteroids and spreadsheets where the real fun is. Except for that hauling.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-02-02 05:26:01 UTC
@ Eternum Praetorian

Enjoyed the post. Well conceived and written. Cudos for you!

One question for you: What makes you think that how RMT works in the game isn't exactly how CCP wants it to work? Ok two questions: And how do you know that CCP doesn't already profit from it?

I've always asserted that CCP's bot enforcement is selective based on certain criteria not specific to botting as a problem but botting/RMT as revenue generation for CCP.

Don't ban me, bro!
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