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Three Mining Ideas
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Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#1 - 2012-01-30 15:55:57 UTC
Covert Rorqual booster

Tag-A-Roid, roid jumping by jump bridge

Asteroid Minefield

Covert Rorqual booster: This is dependant on the rorqual not intereacting with anything directly while cloaked, just boosting. If it wants to load ore, then it decloaks for the transfer from the can or hauler.
While cloaked, it can give it's boost bonus, and compress ore.
CAN transition between siege and regular mode while cloaked. Cannot warp cloaked.
Like a BlackOps ship, can use the covert Cyno.

Tag-A-Roid: This uses an industrial jump bridge, only usable on asteroids and ice asteroids. The ship itself must travel normally between systems. The tagging ship carries a set of beacons in a special probe launcher. The beacons need to be fire at the target asteroid, where they are transported by the bridge at a fuel cost related to the asteroids mass.

Asteroid Minefield: Hostile forces can rig smartbombs inside asteroids. These smartbombs go off once the asteroid is completely mined, or down to a specific percentage based off the skill level of the planting bomber. (Skill 5, and it goes off at 40% remaining. Damage yield per balance, but I am thinking like the bombs used by a SB for damage and radius.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-01-30 17:57:44 UTC
You can't boost while cloaked.

lolwut?

Why? Just why?
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#3 - 2012-01-30 18:31:12 UTC
mxzf wrote:
You can't boost while cloaked.

lolwut?

Why? Just why?


Exactly my point. The rorqual, under current preferred conditions, sits in a POS, in siege mode.

If you want more activity, you must attract it. It won't just appear without cause.

Enable the rorqual to boost while cloaked. This will attract people to take this places, where instead of the absolute defense of POS shields, they can have the more subtle defense of stealth.
(Are they more productive, NO. Will they be used more often, because they can more safely go places where they lack a POS? YES)

Then, add to that, with the rorqual now boosting capable 'safely' in more systems, more mining ops will take place.

Can they boost without being protected? Yes, currently they can. The problem is, too many see this as unacceptable risk, and won't do it. Because they won't risk it, their is LESS activity to join in.

That's why.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#4 - 2012-01-30 19:20:34 UTC
+1

Nice theory, but you assume the (... how do you pronounce that name?) first reply person wants more activity.

Me, I would want something like a cyno flag on my overview if one of those mines blew up.
If that happens, I want my ship sensors able to detect that anywhere in the system.

Let's see, two ideas that make mining more 'attractive', and one that gives mean spirited pranksters a happy moment.

Winning.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#5 - 2012-01-30 19:31:32 UTC
mxzf wrote:

Why? Just why?



would have sufficed for all three mx.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#6 - 2012-01-30 21:55:23 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
mxzf wrote:

Why? Just why?



would have sufficed for all three mx.


Here is Why...

It makes mining more attractive.

Making nullsec more attractive brings more people there to play.

More people playing in nullsec means more action for everyone.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#7 - 2012-01-31 00:29:53 UTC
Confirming that all Rorquals just sit in a POS Twisted, http://rvbganked.co.uk/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2551

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#8 - 2012-01-31 15:12:11 UTC
Grey Azorria wrote:
Confirming that all Rorquals just sit in a POS Twisted, http://rvbganked.co.uk/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2551

Wow, that was a lot of action on a mining ship, lol!

This makes my point beautifully, one rorqual gave all these people a good time.

I think we want more of these party ships flying around Nullsec, and making it more attractive to them is the best way to do it.
Cool
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#9 - 2012-02-01 18:43:40 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Grey Azorria wrote:
Confirming that all Rorquals just sit in a POS Twisted, http://rvbganked.co.uk/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2551

Wow, that was a lot of action on a mining ship, lol!

This makes my point beautifully, one rorqual gave all these people a good time.

I think we want more of these party ships flying around Nullsec, and making it more attractive to them is the best way to do it.
Cool

I heard that.

A lot of people talk about wanting more people in low and null sec.

Well, here is one way to attract them.

You need game changes they like, in order to draw them, unless someone decides to bribe them all with beer and pizza.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#10 - 2012-02-01 19:36:34 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
mxzf wrote:

Why? Just why?



would have sufficed for all three mx.


Here is Why...

It makes mining more attractive.

Making nullsec more attractive brings more people there to play.

More people playing in nullsec means more action for everyone.



Yeah, bringing a rorq out as a target could make things fun for the side killing it, I highly doubt that the miners who are watching it burn would think that's "fun".

The mentality of pilots in low/null is pretty much the polar opposite of the mindset of pilots in hisec. Disclaimer -- the following is vast generalisation, and may not hold true for all players in a general security band.

Hisec - Hmm, $Activity is harder than I thought. Maybe I should get another level in $Skill, jump into a new boat, or faction fit this one. Should maybe get an alt so I don't have to deal with those idiots who keep ninja salvaging my missions.

Lowsec - Hmm, this is going great, can't believe these carebears set up a small tower... Shocked ... OH ****! CYNO! ... waitaminute, the new pilot's in the same corp as the guys who own this POS. [in corp] Guys! That carebear corp just brought a Chimera into $SYSTEM, It's just me and $Corpie here. we've got a point and a cyno, anyone want a carrier KM?

nullsec - Hmm, they've onlined three of the four SBUs in $SYSTEM ... and they're setting up the fourth. (someone on alliance comms) OK guys, we've got their support fleet tied up 10 jumps out. Everyone jump through and get ready to kick these bastards out of our system. Once everyone's through, we'll take out the closest SBU, and see what kind of escalation we get from them. SC Wing, we'll call you in once we get to the first SBU $Person will be setting up the cyno.


One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#11 - 2012-02-01 21:01:57 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
mxzf wrote:

Why? Just why?



would have sufficed for all three mx.


Here is Why...

It makes mining more attractive.

Making nullsec more attractive brings more people there to play.

More people playing in nullsec means more action for everyone.



Yeah, bringing a rorq out as a target could make things fun for the side killing it, I highly doubt that the miners who are watching it burn would think that's "fun".

The mentality of pilots in low/null is pretty much the polar opposite of the mindset of pilots in hisec. Disclaimer -- the following is vast generalisation, and may not hold true for all players in a general security band.

Hisec - Hmm, $Activity is harder than I thought. Maybe I should get another level in $Skill, jump into a new boat, or faction fit this one. Should maybe get an alt so I don't have to deal with those idiots who keep ninja salvaging my missions.

Lowsec - Hmm, this is going great, can't believe these carebears set up a small tower... Shocked ... OH ****! CYNO! ... waitaminute, the new pilot's in the same corp as the guys who own this POS. [in corp] Guys! That carebear corp just brought a Chimera into $SYSTEM, It's just me and $Corpie here. we've got a point and a cyno, anyone want a carrier KM?

nullsec - Hmm, they've onlined three of the four SBUs in $SYSTEM ... and they're setting up the fourth. (someone on alliance comms) OK guys, we've got their support fleet tied up 10 jumps out. Everyone jump through and get ready to kick these bastards out of our system. Once everyone's through, we'll take out the closest SBU, and see what kind of escalation we get from them. SC Wing, we'll call you in once we get to the first SBU $Person will be setting up the cyno.



I like your style, it feels like I got a glimpse of a couple of short stories in that.

I doubt the rorqual would be in danger, if it was being careful enough. It is creating the perception that the rorqual could operate safely that needs to be fostered.
Make sure it is a non combat ship, (no hard points to it already), and give it a cloak.
Let it operate cloaked for compressing ore and boosting. Require it to drop cloaks when grabbing cans, or transferring cargo from them, like any other ship. Cannot warp cloaked I think she said too.

Not sure on the other two ideas, but the cloaky rorqual might be cool. And it might tempt some carebears, who cannot use it in high sec, I don't think....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#12 - 2012-02-01 21:50:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Nikk Narrel wrote:

I like your style, it feels like I got a glimpse of a couple of short stories in that.


I wouldn't call them stories so much as putting together the viewpoints from the forums... However, I have flown in corps that lived in high/low/null ... so there is a bit of experience that I can throw in as well.

Nikk Narrel wrote:

I doubt the rorqual would be in danger, if it was being careful enough. It is creating the perception that the rorqual could operate safely that needs to be fostered.
Make sure it is a non combat ship, (no hard points to it already), and give it a cloak.
Let it operate cloaked for compressing ore and boosting. Require it to drop cloaks when grabbing cans, or transferring cargo from them, like any other ship. Cannot warp cloaked I think she said too.

Not sure on the other two ideas, but the cloaky rorqual might be cool. And it might tempt some carebears, who cannot use it in high sec, I don't think....


There's a reason that a Rorq gets thrown into a POS shield ... it's a 2bn hull that when it's doing its thing (ore compression), it is completely and utterly immobile. The siege cycle lasts for 5 minutes, that's a hell of a long time to be stuck if something "bad" happens ... for example, a roaming gang hops into the lowsec system you're mining in.

Throw it into a POS bubble, and you're safe from it getting pointed. Back when I lived in null, there were a few ops where the process went sort of like this.

1. Rorq cynos to the target system.
2. small pos is thrown up, fueled for the weekend, and fully stronted.
3. throw up a LSAA so you have somewhere for the haulers to dump rock
4. miners/haulers show up, either in barges, or their stuff was cynoed in the rorq
5. defence guys (3-5 man roaming gang) bubble the gates, and signal the all clear
6. miners jump into the belt, rorq sieges
7. ???
8. when finished, move the ore out to be refined. pull down the bubbles, get the barges back home.

Now, the bubbles obviously won't work in low, and there are other considerations to be made with regard to POS size.

Really the trouble that "indy" types have in this is that they can't/won't get some PvP muscle to help protect them. Last time we did some mining in low, I had people cloaked on the gates watching for neutrals/reds coming in, a fleet of 5-6 combat ships (BC on up) with 2-4 fast tackles who pretty much roamed the system ratting unless they were needed at a gate.

so that's 10-12 pilots who aren't even *mining* on the mining op. However, we're able to have those kind of pilots around, because the corp isn't 100% carebear/miner. There are many small "Industrial" corporations who don't have any combat support, so can't mine like that...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#13 - 2012-02-01 23:33:55 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

I like your style, it feels like I got a glimpse of a couple of short stories in that.


I wouldn't call them stories so much as putting together the viewpoints from the forums... However, I have flown in corps that lived in high/low/null ... so there is a bit of experience that I can throw in as well.

Nikk Narrel wrote:

I doubt the rorqual would be in danger, if it was being careful enough. It is creating the perception that the rorqual could operate safely that needs to be fostered.
Make sure it is a non combat ship, (no hard points to it already), and give it a cloak.
Let it operate cloaked for compressing ore and boosting. Require it to drop cloaks when grabbing cans, or transferring cargo from them, like any other ship. Cannot warp cloaked I think she said too.

Not sure on the other two ideas, but the cloaky rorqual might be cool. And it might tempt some carebears, who cannot use it in high sec, I don't think....


There's a reason that a Rorq gets thrown into a POS shield ... it's a 2bn hull that when it's doing its thing (ore compression), it is completely and utterly immobile. The siege cycle lasts for 5 minutes, that's a hell of a long time to be stuck if something "bad" happens ... for example, a roaming gang hops into the lowsec system you're mining in.

Throw it into a POS bubble, and you're safe from it getting pointed. Back when I lived in null, there were a few ops where the process went sort of like this.

1. Rorq cynos to the target system.
2. small pos is thrown up, fueled for the weekend, and fully stronted.
3. throw up a LSAA so you have somewhere for the haulers to dump rock
4. miners/haulers show up, either in barges, or their stuff was cynoed in the rorq
5. defence guys (3-5 man roaming gang) bubble the gates, and signal the all clear
6. miners jump into the belt, rorq sieges
7. ???
8. when finished, move the ore out to be refined. pull down the bubbles, get the barges back home.

Now, the bubbles obviously won't work in low, and there are other considerations to be made with regard to POS size.

Really the trouble that "indy" types have in this is that they can't/won't get some PvP muscle to help protect them. Last time we did some mining in low, I had people cloaked on the gates watching for neutrals/reds coming in, a fleet of 5-6 combat ships (BC on up) with 2-4 fast tackles who pretty much roamed the system ratting unless they were needed at a gate.

so that's 10-12 pilots who aren't even *mining* on the mining op. However, we're able to have those kind of pilots around, because the corp isn't 100% carebear/miner. There are many small "Industrial" corporations who don't have any combat support, so can't mine like that...

I admire your experience, and respect it as you described here.

Your op would be something that should be in textbooks, for any null sec corp considering mining.

That being said, attracting high sec players means acknowledging their play style.
In too many cases, this means they have smaller social circles, assuming they even have corps in most cases.

They are probably looking at a 6 man operation often, and with the rorq boosting, the rest are probably in exhumers.
If they can arrange a defense ship, that's great. The cloak on the rorqual is it's only real defense in my suggested idea.
The barges can sacrifice a slot for a prototype cloak, and try to hide at a safespot.

I am suggesting some details on the idea that obviously there is no friendly POS handy, and the outpost, if any, may not be reliable to run to.

The whole scheme has to look doable by high sec miners, to tempt them into coming for the tempting ores of null sec.
I figure WHs are out of their league for this, since they are not used to needing to dscan continuously on the chance someone wants to have a surprise party.

If they get hooked on the ores, and the risks being manageable, then they can look into changing their play style more, and becoming a proper null resident.
Amaroq Dricaldari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-02-02 05:32:32 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Why? Just why?

Do you ever say anything productive?

This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#15 - 2012-02-02 19:05:27 UTC
Friendly bump.

Anything that would encourage more activity, especially productive activity like mining, I appreciate.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#16 - 2012-02-02 22:42:26 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Grey Azorria wrote:
Confirming that all Rorquals just sit in a POS Twisted, http://rvbganked.co.uk/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=2551

Wow, that was a lot of action on a mining ship, lol!

This makes my point beautifully, one rorqual gave all these people a good time.

I think we want more of these party ships flying around Nullsec, and making it more attractive to them is the best way to do it.
Cool

I heard that.

A lot of people talk about wanting more people in low and null sec.

Well, here is one way to attract them.

You need game changes they like, in order to draw them, unless someone decides to bribe them all with beer and pizza.


The cloaked rorqual idea is getting a lot of chatter, what about the industrial jump bridge, or the asteroid booby traps?
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#17 - 2012-02-02 23:06:52 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
The cloaked rorqual idea is getting a lot of chatter, what about the industrial jump bridge, or the asteroid booby traps?


I actually meant my first reply to address all three of them. Bridging to asteroids is one of the crazier things I've seen in a bit and I'm not seeing any valid reason for it at all ("it sounds cool" is never a valid reason). And I'm still waiting for an answer to "Why? Just why?" about the booby-trapped asteroids.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#18 - 2012-02-03 15:03:15 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Mary Annabelle wrote:
The cloaked rorqual idea is getting a lot of chatter, what about the industrial jump bridge, or the asteroid booby traps?


I actually meant my first reply to address all three of them. Bridging to asteroids is one of the crazier things I've seen in a bit and I'm not seeing any valid reason for it at all ("it sounds cool" is never a valid reason). And I'm still waiting for an answer to "Why? Just why?" about the booby-trapped asteroids.

Booby trapped asteroids are an easy hit.

Miners are PvP types, but are not that noticeable when the shoot your face types are around.
Half of their competition is a race to get minerals before the next guy shows up. The other half is understated, since they don't have a lot of options for sabotage.

Miners will be happy to see their competition go boom. More so, if the mines can be flagged as NPC after setting, or self inflicted because they are set off by another's actions. (What, I left a mine? Not my fault he wanted to play with that asteroid...)
(That would mean it could be used in High Sec, btw)

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#19 - 2012-02-03 17:00:09 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:

I admire your experience, and respect it as you described here.

Your op would be something that should be in textbooks, for any null sec corp considering mining.

That being said, attracting high sec players means acknowledging their play style.
In too many cases, this means they have smaller social circles, assuming they even have corps in most cases.

They are probably looking at a 6 man operation often, and with the rorq boosting, the rest are probably in exhumers.
If they can arrange a defense ship, that's great. The cloak on the rorqual is it's only real defense in my suggested idea.
The barges can sacrifice a slot for a prototype cloak, and try to hide at a safespot.

I am suggesting some details on the idea that obviously there is no friendly POS handy, and the outpost, if any, may not be reliable to run to.

The whole scheme has to look doable by high sec miners, to tempt them into coming for the tempting ores of null sec.
I figure WHs are out of their league for this, since they are not used to needing to dscan continuously on the chance someone wants to have a surprise party.

If they get hooked on the ores, and the risks being manageable, then they can look into changing their play style more, and becoming a proper null resident.


A 6 man operation could pull lowsec mining off ... but things get ugly in the logistics of getting the rocks out.

Here's what they'd need:
1. QUIET lowsec system. Deadend, or lowsec island no one goes into (you can find these in a number of places)
2. Small POS, with a few days fuel (it's getting torn down at the end), and at least half a stront bay (gives you about 22-24 hours GTFO time in case they bring something big)
3. Orca (for boosts)
5. Hauler in an iteron 5, with tractor beam so he doesn't need to get close to the miners
6. someone in a fast tackle watching the gate(s)
7. 3-4 miners

If you're bringing a rorq out to play, then I wouldn't go with anything less than a large with minimum 3/3/2/1 hardeners inside. This takes something like 30 dreads to RF in a single siege cycle ... so, in a lot of instances you're going to get people just saying "not worth it" and moving on.

To be honest though, the real problem with this is that you have 3 or 4 (or more) 6-man "industrial" corporations who all want to do something like this ... on their own terms, and by themselves. If those same corps would all work together (either merging into one corp ... or I suppose as an alliance), they would be much better off in getting out into low (or null) ... because now they have the numbers to easily set up a proper "fleet".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#20 - 2012-02-03 23:11:51 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
A 6 man operation could pull lowsec mining off ... but things get ugly in the logistics of getting the rocks out.

Here's what they'd need:
1. QUIET lowsec system. Deadend, or lowsec island no one goes into (you can find these in a number of places)
2. Small POS, with a few days fuel (it's getting torn down at the end), and at least half a stront bay (gives you about 22-24 hours GTFO time in case they bring something big)
3. Orca (for boosts)
5. Hauler in an iteron 5, with tractor beam so he doesn't need to get close to the miners
6. someone in a fast tackle watching the gate(s)
7. 3-4 miners

If you're bringing a rorq out to play, then I wouldn't go with anything less than a large with minimum 3/3/2/1 hardeners inside. This takes something like 30 dreads to RF in a single siege cycle ... so, in a lot of instances you're going to get people just saying "not worth it" and moving on.

To be honest though, the real problem with this is that you have 3 or 4 (or more) 6-man "industrial" corporations who all want to do something like this ... on their own terms, and by themselves. If those same corps would all work together (either merging into one corp ... or I suppose as an alliance), they would be much better off in getting out into low (or null) ... because now they have the numbers to easily set up a proper "fleet".


Again, you have a talent for ops planning. I suspect you do this for your alliance, or could easily fill in for whoever does.

The only problem, is that the high sec players we are trying to tempt, probably could not figure this out on their own. They possibly lack the experience, or the planning ability itself.

So we throw in something, almost like a gimmick, that makes them think about doing it. The cloaking rorqual is what gets them thinking, next they consider how many mining ships, and how they should be outfitted.
After a while, (I am hoping), you have players inspired to try low or null sec mining. The rorqual could be all it takes to make them open their eyes and consider it.

Now, the mined asteroid booby-trap idea, that is another aspect. It makes high sec mining a little less safe, making the jump to mining in low or null not as big of a risk jump. Nowhere is truly safe, so why not take a risk for some real rewards?
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