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CSM Elections - Pretty much rigged voting?

First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#121 - 2012-01-30 10:01:40 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
I have no faith in the election voting process at all.

A candidate basically has his hundreds of alliance mate votes, and their alts on top. Pretty much seals the candidates seat and we can say is pretty much rigged voting..

People in small corps/alliances even though they may have lots of eve experience, would never get voted because of this.. So thats why i guess a lot of ppl dont stand and ppl dont vote either...

I still think that CCP should be the people to effectively 'interview' candidates from all areas (null, low, empire, pvp, trade) and they choose who they think is the best person to be on the CSM. Thats pretty much the only way to ensure fairness.


You're talking as if someone in an alliance running for the CSM has some magical ability to command every single account in that alliance to 100% reliably vote for him.

Have you ever been in a 0.0 alliance? Which one?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#122 - 2012-01-30 10:42:35 UTC
Some observations of all these similar CSM threads:

- anti-CSM claims are always presented without any evidence
- constructive posts with references to evidence, such as CSM minute meetings, Crucible etc are disregarded
- personal, subjective opinions about certain alliances are presented as "common opinion"

According to these people nulllsec is an evil, monolithic bloc with free ISK raining from the skies, full of veterans who have used their 5+ years or game time and 6 accounts solely in the purpose of griefing hisec noobs and destroying EVE.

Also, Mittani is really Putin and just bought sisilian mafia and Exxon with RMT botting money.


.

Ulair Memmet
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2012-01-30 15:21:02 UTC
@OP
Democracy has never meant that the right people get power, but the popular ones.
But it's better than having no elections at all. CCP choosing the CSM members would make the whole thing useless.
WhyTry1
Comply Or Die
Lord of Worlds Alliance
#124 - 2012-01-30 15:29:00 UTC
Ulair Memmet wrote:
@OP
Democracy has never meant that the right people get power, but the popular ones.
But it's better than having no elections at all. CCP choosing the CSM members would make the whole thing useless.



look seriously ppl need to stop talking about this democracy crap. When real politicians are up for election they campaign and get votes from people that ARE NOT DIRECTLY LINKED with them. If this was done in real life then it would be classed as vote rigging.
In eve it is THEIR OWN players that vote for them, and when its candidates of large alliances, then the amount of votes the get from both their own members and alts pretty much guarantee a seat on the CSM. This is not right, quite simply not.

Yes in real life politics tend to go for a certain party, like conservative, labour, lib dems, purely because of the partym and the candidate is only voted for becuase they are in that party not becuase of their own abilities. However there are NOT parties in eve like RL. So you cant compare it that way either.

Eve politics/democracy is NOT the same as RL politics, so stop comparing the two...

Yes of course other people outside these large alliances have a chance so to speak, my issue is that these candidates are getting on the CSM purely becuase their own members voted for them, and have direct links with them. If these guys where not part of the large alliances, they would never get voted for, never!
Zytani
The Motley Crew Reborn
#125 - 2012-01-30 15:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zytani
we should just use Chribba's Dice to elect our csm members

each active account gets asigned one number then ccp roll the dice for each csm seat available

which ever number gets called gets a seat at the csm.

get called but dont wanna be on csm? have ccp place an "opt out of CSM elections" check box in your account management page and have it turned on by default.... if you wanna run for csm then u can uncheck that box
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#126 - 2012-01-30 15:54:31 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
Ulair Memmet wrote:
@OP
Democracy has never meant that the right people get power, but the popular ones.
But it's better than having no elections at all. CCP choosing the CSM members would make the whole thing useless.



look seriously ppl need to stop talking about this democracy crap. When real politicians are up for election they campaign and get votes from people that ARE NOT DIRECTLY LINKED with them. If this was done in real life then it would be classed as vote rigging.
In eve it is THEIR OWN players that vote for them, and when its candidates of large alliances, then the amount of votes the get from both their own members and alts pretty much guarantee a seat on the CSM. This is not right, quite simply not.

Yes in real life politics tend to go for a certain party, like conservative, labour, lib dems, purely because of the partym and the candidate is only voted for becuase they are in that party not becuase of their own abilities. However there are NOT parties in eve like RL. So you cant compare it that way either.

Eve politics/democracy is NOT the same as RL politics, so stop comparing the two...

Yes of course other people outside these large alliances have a chance so to speak, my issue is that these candidates are getting on the CSM purely becuase their own members voted for them, and have direct links with them. If these guys where not part of the large alliances, they would never get voted for, never!


So, when I vote for my Senator as he runs for president, he's fixing the election by using the votes of people who already support him? Or when an entire family is involved in politics and each member goes campaigning to help the other family members, that's election fraud?

Sure, at a national level, very few people have the connections to gain a large number of votes from groups not specifically set up to help consolidate power (parties), but you see this sort of thing all the time at a local level. You have the small town mayor who's family has always been mayor, the small town sheriff (an elected position usually) who was supported by his brother the mayor, and as such wins in a landslide every term.

In real politics, no matter how they are affiliated with the candidate, so long as a voter is eligible to vote, their vote counts.

Now IF you could prove buying votes or threats were involved, you might have a case, BUT that was explicitly condoned in the CSM elections, since this is EVE and HTFU.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Caldari Acolyte
Shark Enterprises
#127 - 2012-01-30 16:13:17 UTC
Im not much for CSM's and won't get into the argument, But there should be term limits for obvious reasons.
Demonfuge Malevolent
To small to care
#128 - 2012-01-30 16:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Demonfuge Malevolent
When does the CSM voting begin?
WhyTry1
Comply Or Die
Lord of Worlds Alliance
#129 - 2012-01-30 16:43:27 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Now IF you could prove buying votes or threats were involved, you might have a case, BUT that was explicitly condoned in the CSM elections, since this is EVE and HTFU.


So you seriously believe HONESTLY that this does not happen? Seriously?

HTFU has nothing to do with this topic whatsoever...
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2012-01-30 16:46:41 UTC
Someone's mad he's not popular Twisted

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-01-30 16:47:12 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Someone's mad he's not popular Twisted

It's me. I feel so inadequate. Hug? Cry

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#132 - 2012-01-30 16:48:43 UTC
Roime wrote:
Some observations of all these similar CSM threads:

- anti-CSM claims are always presented without any evidence
- constructive posts with references to evidence, such as CSM minute meetings, Crucible etc are disregarded
- personal, subjective opinions about certain alliances are presented as "common opinion"

According to these people nulllsec is an evil, monolithic bloc with free ISK raining from the skies, full of veterans who have used their 5+ years or game time and 6 accounts solely in the purpose of griefing hisec noobs and destroying EVE.

Also, Mittani is really Putin and just bought sisilian mafia and Exxon with RMT botting money.



I wish Mittani was Putin.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#133 - 2012-01-30 17:52:22 UTC
An election is rigged because the person with the most votes won. Amazing.

Ferox #1

Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2012-01-30 19:42:51 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
I have no faith in the election voting process at all.

A candidate basically has his hundreds of alliance mate votes, and their alts on top. Pretty much seals the candidates seat and we can say is pretty much rigged voting..

People in small corps/alliances even though they may have lots of eve experience, would never get voted because of this.. So thats why i guess a lot of ppl dont stand and ppl dont vote either...

I still think that CCP should be the people to effectively 'interview' candidates from all areas (null, low, empire, pvp, trade) and they choose who they think is the best person to be on the CSM. Thats pretty much the only way to ensure fairness.

I would say having one representative for each of those areas and no chairman would be the way to go but still leave the voting up to the players. Allow one vote per player overall so that one alliance can't control it all either. Whoever gets the most votes in each category is that years CSM for that category.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#135 - 2012-01-31 00:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Lyris Nairn wrote:
I wish Mittani was Putin.

As effective as Mittani is at being CSM chairman he's kind of a total dork. Putin is way cooler.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#136 - 2012-01-31 01:39:25 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


Now IF you could prove buying votes or threats were involved, you might have a case, BUT that was explicitly condoned in the CSM elections, since this is EVE and HTFU.


So you seriously believe HONESTLY that this does not happen? Seriously?

HTFU has nothing to do with this topic whatsoever...


I like Big BUTs and I cannot lie.
You other brothers can't deny.
When a Rule's not broken an itty bitty inch,
and corruption's put in its place
I get EVE'd, wanna pull out my rules.

Point being that you missed that CAPSLOCKED "BUT" in my post. I'm fairly certain activity that would be defined in the USA as electoral fraud occurred. Now that we agree that that activity occurred, the onus is on you to show that it is disallowed by the rules of the CSM Elections (not the rules of the USA). Since I doubt you'll actually do that, I'll offer what would be my rebuttal;

Most activities that would be defined in the USA as electoral fraud were EXPLICITLY Condoned BY CCP in the last CSM election. This included threats (in game only ofc), Bribery, and other sorts of coercion.

tl;dr I seriously believe HONESTLY that this does happen. Seriously. It's also EXPLICITLY ALLOWED.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Thor Kerrigan
The High and Mighty
Carebear Abortion Clinic
#137 - 2012-01-31 02:52:57 UTC
The biggest failure is the lack of a serious candidate. If someone truly wanted to represent the "majority" of players, there are tools to promote yourself but it requires hard work and dedication. It requires a strong agenda that represents what most people want in this game. If one can get the collective votes of 75% of Caldari highsec, you can bet they will be elected on the CSM. However, no true highsec player cares enough about the game to really become a CSM member, since the qualities described above represent the most hardcore EVE players found predominantly in 0.0 alliances.

It seems the majority of EVE players (highsec) need to accept the fact they do not care enough about the real game to have a say in the CSM.
Cass Lie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#138 - 2012-01-31 10:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Cass Lie
This whole "preconception" of widespread botting/RMT (in null) is a legacy from the fall of the NC, when the propaganda machines on both sides were going full gear and no claim needed evidence as long as it was smearing enough. Since then this whole notion has somewhat become common knowledge and many people accept it without second thinking.

Sure, I have had corpmates go bot hunting to drones with stealth bombers and drag bubbles, because they were certain that sooner or later they will find a bot. But I heard similar things said about certain southern regions, northern regions etc. I think in general, if a region is quiet enough for a long enough time, some botting operations may/will occur (and drones actually were one of the most stable areas in null). But to draw from that some colosal RMT/botting conspiracy, well that is quite a leap.

P.S.: I heard that that ratting Nyx was actually lost when the owner decided to play dead drunk and fell asleep in a middle of an anom. Sounds more plausible than someone being stupid enough to write such a bad bot.
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#139 - 2012-01-31 10:37:54 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Ira Theos wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
WhyTry1 wrote:
I have no faith in the election voting process at all.

A candidate basically has his hundreds of alliance mate votes, and their alts on top. Pretty much seals the candidates seat and we can say is pretty much rigged voting..

People in small corps/alliances even though they may have lots of eve experience, would never get voted because of this.. So thats why i guess a lot of ppl dont stand and ppl dont vote either...

I still think that CCP should be the people to effectively 'interview' candidates from all areas (null, low, empire, pvp, trade) and they choose who they think is the best person to be on the CSM. Thats pretty much the only way to ensure fairness.


No it isn't because all that would happen then is CCP would be accused of picking people who they have person relationships with.



So you would prefer to have it populated with people who have a personal relationship with the Mittani?

(and before anyone asks, I'm not an alt of the OP and don't know him at all.)


Your point is what?

Whether you hate or like The Mittani, the reason he is able to get so many votes is because of his influence in game.

Maybe in a few years if you have done as half as much as he has done then maybe you can get people to vote for you instead.

Also, if we follow your idea then the The Mittani is guaranteed a place on the CSM for life considering he is good friends with many CCP employees, so your idea is even more fail.






But hardly anyone voted for him in the grand scheme of things. The csm voting needs more publicity and a way of gradually reducing candidates during the voting process so there is less wastage.

That all said, the currest csm has been the best by far from a number of stand points.
Akatenshi Xi
Elite Shadow Society
#140 - 2012-01-31 13:58:09 UTC
CSM is a stupid idea. There will always be something wrong with it.

CCP is too out of touch to do its own dirty work and really read their own forums and know what players want they have to resort to a group of retards representing probably the null sec powerblocks whom barely get to actually play the game itself if they are actually running their organizations, unless they are complete ''no-lifers''. Why them? Because they have the biggest coalitions and alliances to get votes from, while players who have far more years of real experience in eve who are in npc/small corp or alliance have no chance of being put into CSM and actually affecting some good changes from their experience.

Just take some polls, ask some questions, get responses. Ignore the trolls. DEVs get to work and stop farting around with fail updates that no one cared about in the first place. Fix **** that has been wrong for years in the game. UI would be a good place to start (this doesn't include ripping off a start bar from your desktop)