These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

They won't stop at nerfing the Drake...
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#161 - 2012-01-26 21:39:01 UTC
SnowxCrash wrote:
Wait, so they're taking away the resist bonus, and giving a velocity bonus, and nerfing the range of missles on it? Why? It doesn't make any sense to me...What's fun about the Drake is that it can tank so well, without that I don't see the point in flying it anymore. It was cheap, could tank hard, do decent dps at a nice range. The perfect ship for new players like myself. Now it's going to be some lame redux of a caracal...How's that interesting? Better yet, why was this necessary? I just got popped and pod'd in my Drake, inside a WH that put my regen at 380hps, and you're trying to tell me it's tanking was OP in pvp?

Ship's like that Drake shouldn't get nerfed around the premise that the flyer would have 20m+sp. There's few enough reasons to encourage new players to stay in Eve, and the Drake has been that for me.


WHY WHY WHY WON'T YOU LET THIS THREAD DIE.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#162 - 2012-01-26 23:05:59 UTC  |  Edited by: SnowxCrash
Petrus Blackshell wrote:


WHY WHY WHY WON'T YOU LET THIS THREAD DIE.


Because I'm a new pilot who can barely replace his Drake and imps after getting podd'd? To me the idea of a BC being a speedboat just seems stupid. I don't understand why this nerf seems necessary. If Drakes zergs really are a big problem why don't people get in manticores and drop several hundred thousand dmg into it? Maybe I'm too much of a noob to realize why that's a stupid thing to do. idk. All I really know is that I got popped with 70%+ resists with 380hps and couldn't do **** about it and it sounds to me that if a zerg of Drakes is impossible for someone to kill then they're bad at this game. I've met my fair share of Bad Kids in other game forums and the one thing they have in common is that they're always calling for nerfs and applauding when they happen with little to no consideration about how it affects other aspects of the game. Aspects like myself, a new player. Before the Drake ships were just meh meh and more meh with all different flavors of bland. Putting in rigs which make cruisers fun was too expensive, I can't fly any t2, before the Drake no ship did anything remarkable which could lead to any sort of elation. If it wasn't for the Drake I probably would've gotten bored with Eve and left again. No doubt someone's going to tell me to go ahead and quit no one wants you here yadada to which all I have to say is there's a reason Eve has such a low sub retention, and nerfing ships so that you can all fly happy in Canes will only add to the problem.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2012-01-26 23:22:55 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkAegix
SnowxCrash wrote:

Because I'm a new pilot who can barely replace his Drake and imps after getting podd'd? To me the idea of a BC being a speedboat just seems stupid. I don't understand why this nerf seems necessary. If Drakes zergs really are a big problem why don't people get in manticores and drop several hundred thousand dmg into it? Maybe I'm too much of a noob to realize why that's a stupid thing to do. idk. All I really know is that I got popped with 70%+ resists with 380hps and couldn't do **** about it and it sounds to me that if a zerg of Drakes is impossible for someone to kill then they're bad at this game. I've met my fair share of Bad Kids in other game forums and the one thing they have in common is that they're always calling for nerfs and applauding when they happen with little to no consideration about how it affects other aspects of the game. Aspects like myself, a new player. Before the Drake ships were just meh meh and more meh with all different flavors of bland. Putting in rigs which make cruisers fun was too expensive, I can't fly any t2, before the Drake no ship did anything remarkable which could lead to any sort of elation. If it wasn't for the Drake I probably would've gotten bored with Eve and left again. No doubt someone's going to tell me to go ahead and quit no one wants you here yadada to which all I have to say is there's a reason Eve has such a low sub retention, and nerfing ships so that you can all fly happy in Canes will only add to the problem.

It's not really a Drake nerf.
Just a reimagining. Anyway, it should be better for missions now, because of the RoF bonus.
A fit with 3 hardeners, 2 LSE, 2 shield relays and purger rigs will be able to get about 480hp/s against Guristas.

This is very, very good for the PVP HAM Drake, as well. They'll be able to kite at the very edge of warp disruptor range, while still doing max damage with the short-range missile variety.

The Drake will also be able to get about 650dps with Rage HAMs, and ~25km missile range.
A nanocane with neuts gets about 325dps at that range, and it's limited to explosive damage instead of any type it wants when kiting.
The HAM Drake will be able to get about a 75k ehp tank. Compare that the the nanocane, which has about a 58k ehp tank.

The Drake could do too many things too well. Soon, it will be doing some things better, but other things worse.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2012-01-26 23:25:49 UTC
yeah man, comparing how drake fleets mash up against harbi and myrm flee-

oh wait there's no such thing as harbi or myrm fleets because the drake is that much better.
SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#165 - 2012-01-26 23:58:38 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:

It's not really a Drake nerf.
Just a reimagining. Anyway, it should be better for missions now, because of the RoF bonus.
A fit with 3 hardeners, 2 LSE, 2 shield relays and purger rigs will be able to get about 480hp/s against Guristas.

This is very, very good for the PVP HAM Drake, as well. They'll be able to kite at the very edge of warp disruptor range, while still doing max damage with the short-range missile variety.

The Drake will also be able to get about 650dps with Rage HAMs, and ~25km missile range.
A nanocane with neuts gets about 325dps at that range, and it's limited to explosive damage instead of any type it wants when kiting.
The HAM Drake will be able to get about a 75k ehp tank. Compare that the the nanocane, which has about a 58k ehp tank.

The Drake could do too many things too well. Soon, it will be doing some things better, but other things worse.


When I said 380hps I wasn't using EFT talking about some calculated value. It was a flat 380hps IG due to the WH bonus to shields. In any event what you've said does nothing to address the concerns of a new player. To me this balance discussion with, CSM(some group of players?), sounds to me like it's full of players who've been playing for years and probably have SP caps on their corp and are so far removed from what it's like to be a new player it never crosses their mind when discussing changes like this. You guys keep talking about ehp left and right like that's a primary concern in pve, you discuss pvp fits in order to talk about how it's not really a nerf, all the while never touching on how this change will make the Drake a dull and unremarkable ship for new players still learning mechanics through pve. When's the last time you guys flew a Drake even? Seems to me most of your current information on performance comes from EFT, rather than experience, or even observation of new players flying them. You all seem like you're in a citadel of high SP pushing for changes to the game that only makes the barrier of entry ever greater to fulfill.

From the standpoint of a new player, how CCPs been doing things seems, weird. First there's a push to get people to play with a 60day deal. Then there's a lot of changes being done which make it seem like CCP is always there to change the game, to balance and add content, and then the changes entail renaming items and nerfing the ship many who joined the 60d deal enjoy flying or are looking forward to fly. Meanwhile you all cheer them on about how great the change will be. Nerfing one of the few t1 ships that can be really fun to fly is as ridiculous an idea to me as a BC that's a speedboat.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#166 - 2012-01-27 00:15:02 UTC
SnowxCrash wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:


WHY WHY WHY WON'T YOU LET THIS THREAD DIE.


Because I'm a new pilot who can barely replace his Drake and imps after getting podd'd? To me the idea of a BC being a speedboat just seems stupid. I don't understand why this nerf seems necessary. If Drakes zergs really are a big problem why don't people get in manticores and drop several hundred thousand dmg into it? Maybe I'm too much of a noob to realize why that's a stupid thing to do. idk. All I really know is that I got popped with 70%+ resists with 380hps and couldn't do **** about it and it sounds to me that if a zerg of Drakes is impossible for someone to kill then they're bad at this game. I've met my fair share of Bad Kids in other game forums and the one thing they have in common is that they're always calling for nerfs and applauding when they happen with little to no consideration about how it affects other aspects of the game. Aspects like myself, a new player. Before the Drake ships were just meh meh and more meh with all different flavors of bland. Putting in rigs which make cruisers fun was too expensive, I can't fly any t2, before the Drake no ship did anything remarkable which could lead to any sort of elation. If it wasn't for the Drake I probably would've gotten bored with Eve and left again. No doubt someone's going to tell me to go ahead and quit no one wants you here yadada to which all I have to say is there's a reason Eve has such a low sub retention, and nerfing ships so that you can all fly happy in Canes will only add to the problem.


Bro.

I was going to write a whole long response explaining to you why the Drake not being bad at anything in particular is causing overuse and leading to stale gameplay, but instead I'm going to tell you to just read this thread. It has the reasons for the nerf explained more than once.

Also, "a zerg of ____" is not a phrase. You're looking for "blob", "swarm", "gang", or "fleet". "Zerg" is an alien race from Starcraft II, not a collective noun meaning "a lot".

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
SnowxCrash
Perkone
Caldari State
#167 - 2012-01-27 00:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: SnowxCrash
Petrus Blackshell wrote:


Bro.

I was going to write a whole long response explaining to you why the Drake not being bad at anything in particular is causing overuse and leading to stale gameplay, but instead I'm going to tell you to just read this thread. It has the reasons for the nerf explained more than once.

Also, "a zerg of ____" is not a phrase. You're looking for "blob", "swarm", "gang", or "fleet". "Zerg" is an alien race from Starcraft II, not a collective noun meaning "a lot".


I did read the thread, and like I said those explanations center wholly around Drake zergs in PvP without addressing my concerns as a new player and even when talking about teh pvp zergs don't really explain why they're really a nuisance. In any event, you should play more games brah. Maybe you'd have caught on that zerg is a correct term to describe a host of enemies swarming you, idk how you couldn't already know this...Oh ****, I'm on a bridge..this explains things...
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2012-01-27 02:28:09 UTC
SnowxCrash wrote:

When I said 380hps I wasn't using EFT talking about some calculated value. It was a flat 380hps IG due to the WH bonus to shields. In any event what you've said does nothing to address the concerns of a new player. To me this balance discussion with, CSM(some group of players?), sounds to me like it's full of players who've been playing for years and probably have SP caps on their corp and are so far removed from what it's like to be a new player it never crosses their mind when discussing changes like this. You guys keep talking about ehp left and right like that's a primary concern in pve, you discuss pvp fits in order to talk about how it's not really a nerf, all the while never touching on how this change will make the Drake a dull and unremarkable ship for new players still learning mechanics through pve. When's the last time you guys flew a Drake even? Seems to me most of your current information on performance comes from EFT, rather than experience, or even observation of new players flying them. You all seem like you're in a citadel of high SP pushing for changes to the game that only makes the barrier of entry ever greater to fulfill.

I'm not elitist, so don't you go thinking I am P
I don't really know how to tackle your post because it's a really big wall, so I'll just make some points:
-Your Drake's flat 380hp/s won't change. It's losing a resist bonus, not shield amount/regen speed
--Flat hp/s never matters, it's the total ehp/s which is what everyone cares about
-The CSM are an elected group of players to represent the playerbase for CCP. Yes, they're all bittervets and many don't care about newer players
-I'm not talking about EHP for PVE. EHP is barely ever a consideration for PVE.
-It's true that this is extremely excellent for the PVP HAM Drake. However, this can stretch into PVE, too. Heavy missiles will have ludicrous range, damage types will be fully selectable, and heavy assault missiles may be a very, very viable choice to blitz through the easier missions
-I don't fly Drakes; I fly Maelstroms, T1 cruisers, Myrmidons and Maelstroms. Not exactly the most elite of bittervet ships.
-Performance information DOES come from EFT/pyfa!

Anyway, I assume you think this raises the barrier for entry because the ship will be less forgiving, now? Perhaps. However, this new Drake will obliterate its way through level 3s, while level 4s are best left to any battleship for newer players. When it comes to wormhole fleets, the Rokh will be the new, forgiving ship.

The Drake will still be quite forgiving for newer players. It's just that instead of frantically training up the missile range skills, new players will be training the shield support skills (Not including the compensation skills), instead. All while dealing higher damage against targets. Particularly useful if the player doesn't read the ship bonus, and wouldn't have used kinetic missiles with the Drake (I still remember my laser/autocannon/railgun Catalyst)
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#169 - 2012-01-27 02:55:36 UTC
PvE Drake will be fine. Recharge makes the PvE drake work.
PvP Drake relies on a different buffering but it will still do its job, then die like every other ship that can't just cyno out.

No, nerfs won't stop with Drake and cut the politicals, it's a nerf plain and simple. It isn't the first it won't be the last and in the end it's just more SP you can use somewhere later on. Drake skills work for Golem too. As well as most minmatar and serious, train medium Artillery Spec 4. The quicker everyone is flying Huginn the quicker they will get thier turn at the chopping block.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#170 - 2012-01-27 03:04:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrrashae
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
SnowxCrash wrote:
Wait, so they're taking away the resist bonus, and giving a velocity bonus, and nerfing the range of missles on it? Why? It doesn't make any sense to me...What's fun about the Drake is that it can tank so well, without that I don't see the point in flying it anymore. It was cheap, could tank hard, do decent dps at a nice range. The perfect ship for new players like myself. Now it's going to be some lame redux of a caracal...How's that interesting? Better yet, why was this necessary? I just got popped and pod'd in my Drake, inside a WH that put my regen at 380hps, and you're trying to tell me it's tanking was OP in pvp?

Ship's like that Drake shouldn't get nerfed around the premise that the flyer would have 20m+sp. There's few enough reasons to encourage new players to stay in Eve, and the Drake has been that for me.


WHY WHY WHY WON'T YOU LET THIS THREAD DIE.


He raises a fair point, at least for/from his perspective.

We were all beginners once.

[/Necro]

Ni.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2012-01-27 03:16:56 UTC
as long as they don't mess with the slots i should be ok...
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#172 - 2012-01-27 06:23:52 UTC
Ioci wrote:
PvE Drake will be fine. Recharge makes the PvE drake work.
PvP Drake relies on a different buffering but it will still do its job, then die like every other ship that can't just cyno out.

No, nerfs won't stop with Drake and cut the politicals, it's a nerf plain and simple. It isn't the first it won't be the last and in the end it's just more SP you can use somewhere later on. Drake skills work for Golem too. As well as most minmatar and serious, train medium Artillery Spec 4. The quicker everyone is flying Huginn the quicker they will get thier turn at the chopping block.


I would absolutely love for a ship with weaknesses like the Huginn to be FOTM. But it won't be, because it has weaknesses.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Msgerbs
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2012-01-27 06:46:55 UTC
Can somebody please show me where the drake was changed? I don't see it anywhere...
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#174 - 2012-01-27 07:00:56 UTC
Msgerbs wrote:
Can somebody please show me where the drake was changed? I don't see it anywhere...

It hasn't yet, all these whine threads are regarding a change that CCP and CSM agreed they want to implement, outlined in the CSM December Summit. It's part of a larger move to balance BCs (buffing up tier 1s, and making all BCs slower in general).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Msgerbs
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2012-01-27 07:02:05 UTC
Does that mean Gallente BCs get buffed and the Hurricane gets nerfed? Surely it can't be true.
Tithi
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#176 - 2012-01-27 07:31:14 UTC
I don't care if they nerf it or not, as long as I can stop seeing them everywhere, doing everything, all the time.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#177 - 2012-01-27 07:34:20 UTC
I don't know why this debate rages... the drake is fine a hurricane is the terror of drakes and will often rock them. The drake is a fine versatile ship but it's not overpowered.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Elistea
BLUE Regiment.
#178 - 2012-01-27 08:07:19 UTC
"They won't stop at nerfing the Drake... "

g00d!