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the dumbing down of names to bring in new blood?

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Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-01-26 13:54:02 UTC
ITT: Greyscale explains why CCP arbitrarily changed prop mods from one set of semi-archaic and incomprehensible names to another set of just-as-archaic and incomprehensible and now difficult-to-search-in-the-market names.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
I'thari
#82 - 2012-01-26 13:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: I'thari
Ayumi Hinoki wrote:
Again, you're just afraid of change :]

I suppose so, I'd hate, for example, to have Rupture being renamed to "tech 1 tier 3 minmatar cruiser" or somesuch

Disclaimer:

Every single character used in this post is a work of fiction. Any similarities with real-world alphabet, or - god forbid - language is purely unintnetional!
Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2012-01-26 13:56:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Cathy Drall
I must admit I was a little upset when my containers called "Scourge Fury" didn't contain Scourge Fury missiles anymore.

I got over it though. Roll
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-01-26 13:57:27 UTC
While you're at it Greyscale, can you rename the Avatar "Golden Ding Dong" because that's what I think of every time I see it and that name makes so much more sense. TIA

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#85 - 2012-01-26 13:57:58 UTC
'Technobabble roleplaying fluff' Mk. (insert meta level) (module type)

'Technobabble roleplaying fluff' Mk. 2 1MN MicroWarpDrive I
'Technobabble roleplaying fluff' Mk. 3 150mm Autocannon I
'Technobabble roleplaying fluff' Mk. 4 Large Shield Extender I
Siiee
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-01-26 14:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Siiee
CCP Lemur wrote:
But I like the new system way better since I don't have to go through dozens of clicks and comparisons to find the thing I want. So no meaningful complexity at all is lost only a naming scheme that was based on randomness alone.


Why must the in game name of the module be the only thing used to search and identify "the thing you want"? I won't argue that any meaningful complexity is lost, but you've managed to suck a whoooole lot of flavor out of the game. When I'm running around in a game I don't look forward to upgrading to a "big gun level 3" I want to get a "ShootTec XT-5897 BOSS Magnum" and I know that that gun is the one I want to get because it's next on the list when I look at the shop under "big guns". Hell, the names can be randomly generated (see Borderlands) and it still doesn't leave me any more confused because there are other popups or overlays or menu sorting options that give me the information I need to make a decision. The name is the last thing that should matter when making my decision on what item to get, but it certainly has a disproportionately large effect on how badass it makes me feel while I'm using it.

So in short you solved the right problem, with what may be the worst possible solution.

To add insult to injury you then took the most simple minded, ham fisted way of doing it. In just the time it's taken me to write this post I was able to come up with an excellent alternative, " 'Thunderbolt' EM Heavy Missile " accomplishes absolutely everything that you find improved with the new names, requires even less mental involvement from your impatient newcomers, and still retains all the flavor of the original. I'm sure that this very same thing and many similar schemes have been suggested by dozens of other players since the patch went live. No one at CCP made any attempt to keep things interesting?
Diana Valenti
Disposable Spies
#87 - 2012-01-26 14:02:42 UTC
Names were cool, they no need to be changed.
Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons
Silver Dragonz
#88 - 2012-01-26 14:18:35 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
OP is an idiot.
Also, they should read up on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I, too, could say that CCP are going to replace all offensive modules with a single 'Shooty Shooty' turret, and then claim that the above will happen because a few modules have been renamed.

However, I won't, because I have a functioning brain, whereas the OP is about as intelligent as a sack of potatoes.



Don't insult the sack of potatoes.
In the grand scheme of things... You're all pubbies. So HTFU.   "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses." - Elwood Blues
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#89 - 2012-01-26 14:20:35 UTC
Siiee wrote:
CCP Lemur wrote:
But I like the new system way better since I don't have to go through dozens of clicks and comparisons to find the thing I want. So no meaningful complexity at all is lost only a naming scheme that was based on randomness alone.


Why must the in game name of the module be the only thing used to search and identify "the thing you want"? I won't argue that any meaningful complexity is lost, but you've managed to suck a whoooole lot of flavor out of the game. When I'm running around in a game I don't look forward to upgrading to a "big gun level 3" I want to get a "ShootTec XT-5897 BOSS Magnum" and I know that that gun is the one I want to get because it's next on the list when I look at the shop under "big guns". Hell, the names can be randomly generated (see Borderlands) and it still doesn't leave me any more confused because there are other popups or overlays or menu sorting options that give me the information I need to make a decision. The name is the last thing that should matter when making my decision on what item to get, but it certainly has a disproportionately large effect on how badass it makes me feel while I'm using it.

So in short you solved the right problem, with what may be the worst possible solution.

To add insult to injury you then took the most simple minded, ham fisted way of doing it. In just the time it's taken me to write this post I was able to come up with an excellent alternative, " 'Thunderbolt' EM Heavy Missile " accomplishes absolutely everything that you find improved with the new names, requires even less mental involvement from your impatient newcomers, and still retains all the flavor of the original. I'm sure that this very same thing and many similar schemes have been suggested by dozens of other players since the patch went live. No one at CCP made any attempt to keep things interesting?


Well said.

@CCP your goal is fine, but I don't see how any sensible person would choose what you did over other available solutions. I can only assume you didn't bother thinking up alternative ways to achieve your goal, you assigned a unimaginative dumbass, a lazy ass person or someone who doesn't know what immersion is to do the thinking for you or the team who came up with the solution had a leader who ignored any alternatives to his idea. It doesn't really matter what happened, but the result is less flavor and immersion in a game already suffering from the lack of them for no real reason.
Lilly Shiroimozu
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-01-26 14:21:47 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The less time you have to spend fighting the game, the more time you have left over to play it. Any simplification which increases the amount of time players can be interacting with each other, while keeping the interaction sufficiently interesting, is a good simplification.


I may be ripping this out of context, but that block of text reflects a mindset
which is a pure one way track down to zero. Making things sound less interesting aka ...
... boring, common, usual, dull, etc ... will not help the cause.

You're removing feeling from the game. As stupid as it may sound for people who uber-believe in logic,
(and thus have no clue what i'm talking about anyway)
an awesomely named mod (like the Y-T and the Y-S) promotes feelings towards the ship,
which is what you want. It bonds and binds. The value of a mod doesn't do that at all,
but having stuff that sounds awesome does.

Any noob that can use modules that sound "cool" will go "wow that sounds cool!".
Which is a simplification of the processes that happen everywhere in the world,
all day long, just because things have names that appeal.

Now think about what you did.

You are removing emotions from the game.


Noobs!


That's a fair point, and it's something that our writers are wrestling with. There was a lot of discussion about this change, trust me Smile



Why not just leave the flavor names and add the extra information about their size and meta level to the old names. Makes everyone happy.

Y-T blahblahblah 10MN (experimental improved whatever you want to name the meta levels) afterburner


Same with missiles, keep flavor names and add on their damage and missle type

blahblahblah thermal heavy assault missile

Again makes everyone happy.
Sakura Imoru
Perkone
Caldari State
#91 - 2012-01-26 14:25:40 UTC
If there is one type of item that is in a dire need for new names, then it's the hardwirings What?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-01-26 14:42:10 UTC
Eliminating some the unneeded ambiguity from module names doesn't dumb the game down at all.

For example, why are "Medium Beam Laser" and "Medium Pulse Laser" and their variants named as such when they are classified as small turrets? You also have "Assault Missile Launchers" and "Heavy Assault Missile Launchers" - the former uses long-range missiles, the latter uses short-range missiles, and they are completely unrelated.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Razin
The Scope
#93 - 2012-01-26 14:58:33 UTC
Ravcharas wrote:
'Technobabble roleplaying fluff' Mk. (insert meta level) (module type)

'Technobabble roleplaying fluff' Mk. 2 1MN MicroWarpDrive I
'Technobabble roleplaying fluff' Mk. 3 150mm Autocannon I
'Technobabble roleplaying fluff' Mk. 4 Large Shield Extender I

Yeah, you'd think CCP would realize this as the path of least resistance that gets them to exactly where they were going. There are even posts in the test server forum section describing this approach.

ccp-psyduck.jpg
Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#94 - 2012-01-26 15:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Trainwreck McGee
The change was unnecessary and a waste of CCP's time

But who cares we will all forget about this in a week

OP its time to untie those panties of yours

CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool
greythorne012511
Doomheim
#95 - 2012-01-26 15:03:13 UTC
I came here from Entropia, a game that is even more complex than EVE. No one there ever complained about "complexity" (or, as the proponents of simplicity here would say "whined"). Why? Entropia is a very immersive game, and complexity, with all its artistry, diversity, and texture, was appreciated. EVE, too, can be very immersive, but there is tension between those who appreciate the beauty of complexity and those who are unable to appreciate it.

Intolerance of complexity, of uncertainty, does not mean that a person is dumb, or stupid, or whatever, it just means that one cannot tolerate ambiguity, a trait of the rigid and the authoritarian personailty, as well as of the unimaginative. Also, understandably, a new player might find the complexity rather daunting, but why did they come here in the first place if not to engage in a complex game? Is it really so hard to click "show info" and spend a few seconds reading?


Yes, the game is still complex with or without names like "Foxfire" and "Thorn", but it loses a certain artistry, a richness that cannot be realized with the new, generic names. The game has become slightly less immersive, slightly less real, if you will. And really, the names now placed on the rockets are too heavy, and lack the quick, prickly quality of the old names.

Though the analogy is not entirely apt, 1984 comes to mind. In the world of 1984, Big Brother worked to reduce all sppech, all thought, all existence to something bland and grey. This was being done to exert total control over people. In EVE, Big Brother, as it were, is making things bland and grey for no other reason than to make make things bland and grey to appease a need for "simplicity".

Thank you, OP.

(BTW, my red flowers are coming up, and so are some of the white ones and even a yellow one. I must get into my green car with the tan interior and go see Mr. Old-Man-With-White-Hair about some fertiliser. Afterward, I will dine at the eating place, and eat green stuff and drink brown liquid.)
Bent Barrel
#96 - 2012-01-26 15:06:22 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

That's a fair point, and it's something that our writers are wrestling with. There was a lot of discussion about this change, trust me Smile


What the writers and Devs missed is the practical point (at least for MWDs, but the missiles are similar).

For a new player, he still has to show info to learn the attributes and memorize the module names he wants to use. For an old player, he was in the same position in the past, now he is back there again.

Summary:

1. You did NOT help the newbs.
2. You made veterans research things again.

And the worst point, you removed UNIQUE FLAVOUR from the game.

All in all, change for changes sake. It did not accomplish a single thing positive.
Razin
The Scope
#97 - 2012-01-26 15:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Razin
Andski wrote:
Eliminating some the unneeded ambiguity from module names doesn't dumb the game down at all.

For example, why are "Medium Beam Laser" and "Medium Pulse Laser" and their variants named as such when they are classified as small turrets? You also have "Assault Missile Launchers" and "Heavy Assault Missile Launchers" - the former uses long-range missiles, the latter uses short-range missiles, and they are completely unrelated.

What you describe are legitimate concerns that can be addresses in ways that don't detract from the game's established culture or making the nomenclature even more confusing (see renaming of prop modules). However CCP decided to "fix" what wasn't really broken at all, and in such a way that made it look like a complete afterthought despite Grayscale's claim of "a lot of discussion".
Jovan Geldon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-01-26 15:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jovan Geldon
Siiee wrote:
CCP Lemur wrote:
But I like the new system way better since I don't have to go through dozens of clicks and comparisons to find the thing I want. So no meaningful complexity at all is lost only a naming scheme that was based on randomness alone.


Why must the in game name of the module be the only thing used to search and identify "the thing you want"? I won't argue that any meaningful complexity is lost, but you've managed to suck a whoooole lot of flavor out of the game. When I'm running around in a game I don't look forward to upgrading to a "big gun level 3" I want to get a "ShootTec XT-5897 BOSS Magnum" and I know that that gun is the one I want to get because it's next on the list when I look at the shop under "big guns". Hell, the names can be randomly generated (see Borderlands) and it still doesn't leave me any more confused because there are other popups or overlays or menu sorting options that give me the information I need to make a decision. The name is the last thing that should matter when making my decision on what item to get, but it certainly has a disproportionately large effect on how badass it makes me feel while I'm using it.

So in short you solved the right problem, with what may be the worst possible solution.

To add insult to injury you then took the most simple minded, ham fisted way of doing it. In just the time it's taken me to write this post I was able to come up with an excellent alternative, " 'Thunderbolt' EM Heavy Missile " accomplishes absolutely everything that you find improved with the new names, requires even less mental involvement from your impatient newcomers, and still retains all the flavor of the original. I'm sure that this very same thing and many similar schemes have been suggested by dozens of other players since the patch went live. No one at CCP made any attempt to keep things interesting?


This sums up my thoughts better than I could.

Finding the items you wanted was never a problem because their names were hard to remember, it was because the entire interface you have to use to get at them is needlessly difficult. You should be able to quickly and easily search for items based on not only name, but meta level, classification (T1/T2/faction/deadspace/officer), type, size, slot used, hell even CPU/PG usage (trawling through EFT to find something that fits in that last utility mid is a pain). Maybe something like that "Type Browser" thing I saw at the Bug Hunter demo at FanFest 2011, just with a lot more criteria added to it.

Also, can you seriously not think of a better way to link things in chat than "Type it out -> Highlight -> Right-click -> Auto-Link -> Choose appropriate type"?
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2012-01-26 15:27:28 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP Lemur wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
there is complexity that revolves around decisions and trade-offs.

then there is complexity that revolves around memorizing random stuff.

One type adds to the game, the other doesn't.


This fine lady hits the point home. Yes, people love the old names and we all got accustomed to them since back in the days. But I like the new system way better since I don't have to go through dozens of clicks and comparisons to find the thing I want. So no meaningful complexity at all is lost only a naming scheme that was based on randomness alone.


Except now you can't find the missile type you want without sorting through another dozen missile types you don't want.

Mjolnir Rocket is insufficient because it doesn't show the t2 variants because the naming scheme doesn't match.

And still, Trauma is an awful name, and Nova is just... ya.

Nova means "new". It doesn't mean anything to do with thermic reactions. "Supernova" has to do with the birth of a star.

"Nova Torpedo" means "New Torpedo".


The names are stupid. Seriously, straight out. Change them again to something that isn't useless.

Also, there is no reason that "Guided Missiles" and "unguided missiles" should share the same names anyways. They're very different. This whole "I want EM missiles to share the same name" needs to have been handled a different way.



To be fair, "nova" has more to do with explosions than "bane" or "havoc" ever did.
Grukni
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-01-26 15:43:59 UTC
What will be the next?

' Limited Caldari Battlecruiser' for the Drake?

Me don't approve this change.