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Cargo Pilots Unite!!!!

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Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-01-24 09:26:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
One of the basic principles of EVE is an open market. Courier contracts are priced as they are because there are people willing to haul at those rates. If it's too low for you, that's fine - because I can just find another hauler who will do it at that price.

What you're proposing is similar to a miner saying "selling Tritanium at 2.5 ISK each is too low, there should be a fixed minimum sell price of 5 ISK."

Now if you want to do something constructive, do as your thread title says, talk to the "cargo pilots", unite them, and get everyone to refuse any contract priced too low. Or even accept it and break it, to further inconvenience those issuing them. If there was a significant drop in people hauling for the current rates, we would have to increase the payouts or haul things ourselves.
LeHarfang
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#42 - 2012-01-24 09:55:27 UTC  |  Edited by: LeHarfang
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
One of the basic principles of EVE is an open market. Courier contracts are priced as they are because there are people willing to haul at those rates. If it's too low for you, that's fine - because I can just find another hauler who will do it at that price.

What you're proposing is similar to a miner saying "selling Tritanium at 2.5 ISK each is too low, there should be a fixed minimum sell price of 5 ISK."

Now if you want to do something constructive, do as your thread title says, talk to the "cargo pilots", unite them, and get everyone to refuse any contract priced too low. Or even accept it and break it, to further inconvenience those issuing them. If there was a significant drop in people hauling for the current rates, we would have to increase the payouts or haul things ourselves.


Of course i'm not gonna waste my time for pennies while the guy is asking for an impossible. And, yeah, having an open market is what makes Eve a good game, in the eyes of most (if not all) people who plays it.

So basically, this thread does'nt belong in the features & ideas discussion section. It's a message to players, not the dev. If cargo haulers are tired of paying ****** prices, they can do like that guy said and i did, dont haul.

Now that i think about it, one problem with this is that it could pretty much kill the shipping business in eve since it's so easy to haul your own stuff for free if there is no haulers to haul your stuff. No need for supply if there is no demands.
Atticus Fynch
#43 - 2012-01-24 13:38:23 UTC
LeHarfang wrote:

Now that i think about it, one problem with this is that it could pretty much kill the shipping business in eve since it's so easy to haul your own stuff for free if there is no haulers to haul your stuff. No need for supply if there is no demands.


Investing time to train up for haulers and freighters is not something people with pew-pew agendas want to do. That is why there will always be a need for haulers. As of this post, the public hauling business is dying. Mainly because there is a monopoly taking place by a couple of shipping corps.

So not only are public contracts getting fewer and fewer but what remains are the dregs of contracts asking the most collateral for the fewest pay over 20-30+ jumps.

A change is sorely needed.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

Roast Em
Perkone
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-01-24 14:00:46 UTC
+1
Porkita
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-01-24 14:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Porkita
I don't know why you want these things changed. They work as intented. Couriers have a healthy economy like nothing else in the game, let me explain why:

Currently the reward determines which public contracts will be picked up fast and which will have to wait longer. There exist very profittable public couriers, you just don't happen to see them often when you don't keep following them, because they are picked very fast. Those issuers paying a good reward are rewarded by an early delivery. Those not willing to pay, get their stuff very slowly or not at all delivered.

Players decide on their own, if they are willing to have something like a 1000 ISK/jump or a 1M ISK/jump rate, by taking or avoiding specific contracts. I don't see why there is the need to babysit everyone by defining what should be the status quo on couriers. What works for you, might not work for others.

A fixed rate is going to kill competition and it is going to kill the diversity of reasons that couriers are used. It is not going to make couriers to be more profitable, it is instead going to lower the amount of public couriers a lot, as it just won't be profitable anymore at all in many cases.

A fixed rate is going to make more rewarding couriers probably less rewarding, especially on long routes, because it dictates what something should be.

There is competition in the hauling business. Lack of more competition is only, because it takes a huge planning to create a hauling corp and keep it running with available pilots and competitive services. Many players are just not willing to do all that planning and keeping it up, no fixed rate will change that.

Eve is a Sandbox. Couriers are 100% sandbox. Players decide if something works or not. If they pick couriers with a 1000ISK up, those putting those rewards will keep doing it. Players have the power to change this on their own by not picking up couriers which rewards they consider ridiculous, even then not when they are going to do that route anyway.

In the time I have been working for Push Industries I have seen the necessity for a variety of rewards to exist, all being dictated by circumstances and individual situations. We have couriers ranging from 100K to 100M+ ISK. A fixed rate is just not going to allow this diversity to exist, that represents the needs and possibilities for everyone, from the new player to the veterans, from the occassional issuer to manufacturers and traders.

In Push the collateral is only in a limited way combined to the reward. We have a multiplier for high-value freight. This works actually great like that. Otherwise this is not combined in any way to the reward per jump or other extra services which we offer, like the rush service. Like someone else said, not the collateral dictates the price in the first place. To have it do, would be just wrong. To have a percentage do it, would make things even more wrong.

if a change would happen to couriers, the next thing to be asked for would be to set a fixed rate for manufacturers and their income (say set minimum prices for items on market)... there is a lot of stuff that is unprofitable to produce on the market (like there is a lot of couriers that are unprofittable to haul). The next thing after that would be... well you see my point?

What I like most in EVE compared to other MMOs is, that it does not tell you what something has to be. The players, the economy and other factors decide what it should be. We can think, experience and decide, we don't need babysitting rules, because some are not willing to make decisions on their own.

The current courier system absolutely represents EVE's "reward vs risk" principle too. Lowsec or Nullsec transports are generally done for a much higher rate, in public as also private couriers. A fixed rate again would not allow for this diversity as it would dictate, they should be the same as highsec couriers.

There is no need to move stuff, because now you can push it!

Atticus Fynch
#46 - 2012-01-24 14:40:50 UTC
Porkita wrote:

A fixed rate is going to make more rewarding couriers probably less rewarding, especially on long routes, because it dictates what something should be.



A fixed rate is a minimum requirment. if you feel a shipment should pay more, then you can add more. You just cant go below the minimum rate. Again, private contratcs can continue to be whatever you want.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

Porkita
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-01-24 14:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Porkita
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Porkita wrote:

A fixed rate is going to make more rewarding couriers probably less rewarding, especially on long routes, because it dictates what something should be.



A fixed rate is a minimum requirment. if you feel a shipment should pay more, then you can add more. You just cant go below the minimum rate. Again, private contratcs can continue to be whatever you want.



No matter if private contracts can be whatever they want to... they will not be, because public couriers are a competition to private contracts. Any fixed or minimum rates will have an effect on the private hauling business too.

We have customers, that use both. Private contracts with us and public contracts at the same time. Putting anything "should be like" is going to limit people's free decisions. I don't see the reason to do so.

You want higher rewards for taking public couriers? If so, keep watching the couriers to be able to pick up those really rewarding instead of the leftovers. Or start your own hauling corporation. Don't try though to be applied what YOU think will be the right thing to the sandbox, which won't be for others .

There is no need to move stuff, because now you can push it!

Ai Shun
#48 - 2012-01-24 18:46:07 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
A change is sorely needed.


So what about that idea of starting a hauling corp for the independents?
Zaxix
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2012-01-24 21:35:01 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
Atticus Fynch wrote:
A change is sorely needed.


So what about that idea of starting a hauling corp for the independents?

It already exists; that's what Red Frog is. Red Frog itself makes no money from its pilots. It's just a brand, a queue, and a bunch of independent haulers doing their own thing. We don't have requirements for X number of deliveries or Y number of days active or any of that. The directors are essentially long term volunteers to keep things going. Nobody's a boss.

Bokononist

 

SketS47
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-01-24 21:43:58 UTC
+1 this will 'revive' a dead profession! One I enjoyed much on my previous char

While ur at it, also think of a few more 'hauler skills' ?
Ai Shun
#51 - 2012-01-24 21:58:46 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:
Atticus Fynch wrote:
A change is sorely needed.


So what about that idea of starting a hauling corp for the independents?

It already exists; that's what Red Frog is. Red Frog itself makes no money from its pilots. It's just a brand, a queue, and a bunch of independent haulers doing their own thing. We don't have requirements for X number of deliveries or Y number of days active or any of that. The directors are essentially long term volunteers to keep things going. Nobody's a boss.


Understood, but Atticus wanted to introduce more competition and is looking for a better pay-off. I'm offering him a suggestion already available within EVE Online. Now I'm just waiting for a response. Although, I should probably assume the silence means he's not interested.

I am looking for a hauling corp at the moment. I'm about 19 days away from being able to fully fly a Crane (With the appropriate skills trained to V) and it's about time I stopped hauling public contracts.

How does Red Frog divvy up the contracts allocated to them? First in first served?
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#52 - 2012-01-28 16:04:48 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:


How does Red Frog divvy up the contracts allocated to them? First in first served?


there's a pool of contract, you choose which contract you want to do, deliver it, and get the reward.

it's pretty straight forward, but you need a freighter with 860k cargo to work for us. No industrial allowed for RF Contracts.

Push works differently, you need to ATK the oldest contract (afaik), and there is micro-push with smaller load/collateral that you can do in an indy. you still get 100% of the reward with them, too.

check out channel "profit" to see our current recruitment status!

Miranda Ka
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#53 - 2012-02-29 11:47:58 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:


How does Red Frog divvy up the contracts allocated to them? First in first served?


there's a pool of contract, you choose which contract you want to do, deliver it, and get the reward.

it's pretty straight forward, but you need a freighter with 860k cargo to work for us. No industrial allowed for RF Contracts.

Push works differently, you need to ATK the oldest contract (afaik), and there is micro-push with smaller load/collateral that you can do in an indy. you still get 100% of the reward with them, too.

check out channel "profit" to see our current recruitment status!



You're done your homework well :) Pretty much everything is correct there.
Yes, we are pushing freight mostly ATK, since we focus on really fast deliveries.
Oldest contracts are generally priorized, but of course we're not asking people to run from Rens to Jita to take the oldest contract when the second oldest is from Hek to Rens :)

For more details, see our recruitment post:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52000



As for the original discussion:
A fixed percentage of the collateral is just not going to work.
I think enough examples were given already (laughably low reward for long routes with low collateral; ridiculously high reward for short routes with high collateral).
And 7.5%? Now you're just trollin :)
Get an idea of the freight business in EVE and about the reward-per-hour in it, before posting suggestions like this. With 7.5% minimum reward, all haulers would be trillionaires in no time...
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#54 - 2012-03-02 02:22:44 UTC
you have to know your competition! :)



Tidurious
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2012-03-02 05:39:08 UTC
This sounds like a lot of whining from someone who should probably join a hauler corp. I've used PUSH Industries several times - they've done great work, and they're quick, as mentioned earlier. I'm willing to pay for that service.

Just because you're not happy with what you've been making, that doesn't entitle you to force others to pay more. If folks aren't willing to pay enough, no one will move their stuff. It's as simple as that. There is NO legitimate reason to force players to pay a certain amount to move their stuff.

Stop whining or stop playing.
Ai Shun
#56 - 2012-03-02 05:41:46 UTC
Tidurious wrote:
This sounds like a lot of whining from someone who should probably join a hauler corp. I've used PUSH Industries several times - they've done great work, and they're quick, as mentioned earlier. I'm willing to pay for that service.


Agreed. I've been using them exclusively for a while now. If only there was a way to get a "Frequent Flyer" discount; because often it is a small cargo that I need moved for trade purposes.

Tidurious wrote:
Stop whining or stop playing.


He has stopped playing and biomassed the character.
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#57 - 2012-03-02 05:59:40 UTC
corvus acanum wrote:
I don't haul but I agree with you on this. If someone is going to ask a billion or more isk in collateral to move something and then only offer ten million isk that is stupid. In the real world that would never happen. That kind of mentality is why courier contracts hardly seem to work at all they are just not worth the money. I would like to see something like this happen as well.

If their contract is terrible then don't accept it. Nobody is forcing you to take bad contracts, so don't force them to pay you more than they are willing to.

If nobody accepts their contracts then they'll have to offer more money to get their stuff moved.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#58 - 2012-03-02 06:19:43 UTC
The fair reward for a contract is the lowest price that anyone will accept for hauling your cargo. Thankfully there are enough people looking to fill deadheads that you can put ridiculously low rewards in for your contracts and still have them hauled.

Courier contracts are most beneficial to people who are already hauling stuff anyway. I've found that sending my junk from A to B in many small packages ends up with a faster delivery time than sending it all as one big package. Those freighter pilots are looking to maximise the return on their investment. If they've got spare space, they'll look for a low-value courier contract (remembering that carrying more than 1B ISK worth of stuff in a freighter is begging to be suicide ganked in Uedama)

The current low rewards for courier contracts simply reflect the ease with which most courier contracts can be fulfilled, and the nature of the people who generally accept courier contracts.

Attempting to regulate the courier contract market will just strangle it. This is not about what is "fair" or "just". This is about fools trying to use public courier contracts as an income stream, when they are competing with people who are simply trying to defray the cost of deadhead runs. You are trying to make a living, they are trying to make some pin money. It is not the market that needs to be corrected, it is your understanding of the market and your expectations of reward from participating in this market.

Remember, any time the world doesn't meet your expectations, it is not the world that must change.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#59 - 2012-03-05 08:54:50 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
Not supported.

If you don't like the pay available, start or join a hauling corp like Red Frog. There is no need to institute this solution when all you have to do is ignore low paying contracts. The underlying logic of your proposition is essentially that people should be forced to pay a certain amount because the collateral is so large. The collateral issue is only one of liquidity. You aren't losing the money; you're temporarily losing access to it. The cost of hauling is about the time; it's not about the amount of the collateral. If there is a contract for 50 jumps (longest possible station to station pure hisec route) for an item with collateral of 100k, 7500 is a laughable reward. And if a contract is for Jita 4-4 to Jita 4-5 with a collateral of 2 billion, a reward of 150 million is absurdly expensive.

If what you want is better pay for contracts overall, do what I and many others have, don't EVER take crap contracts. So, haulers of eve unite... and stop taking crappy contracts.


^^This^^

Former trucker here, so I can confirm that this time, what works IRL will work in EVE:

Tell people who give "cheap freight" as we call it, that they can go **** themselves.

The herd (IE the useful idiots whom, with pitiful eagerness, take cheap freight for peanuts and then whinge on the CB all day about how they're barely keeping their trucks running) will then be culled in due course.

The smart ones will survive and prosper. The dumb ones...will die dumb, and broke.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

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