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The proof CCP doesn't listen or play or understand EVE.

Author
Spookyjay
Brain Farmers Inc
#1 - 2017-07-25 22:59:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Spookyjay
So If you watched the in development video you will have noticed the announcement of more pirate shipyards.
This is hugely concerning that time is being wasted on developing these. They are totaly pointless. nobody is interested in running them. Why? because it requires 60 ish people to run and there is little to no reward for the majority of those 60ish pilots.
Proof is in the blood raider one. No one is bothering with it. It's been weeks and there is basically zero effort to find or run it.
Honestly Devs. Start watching and listening to your players. No one is interested in running a site they will get nothing out of. This has been discussed at length in our alliance so probably in other alliances and the same thing happens each time. Every one says "why would i want to go on that fleet?". If they go on it, There a huge chance of losing a ship to npc (probably an expensive one). If you don't get killed by NPC, you will probably get killed by the hostile players who have turned up to just screw with you. Because it's basically a free dinner and If you then kill the thing and it drops loot, the chances of seeing anything from it are almost zero, as it will go straight to alliance wallet or a fleet commander.

The other side of this coin is the fact that you not only think we want more useless content. But you are actively ignoring the two things nearly every player has asked you to fix. Citadel spam and fozzy sov. This is turning into an incarna level scandal.
You want to add new faction capitals? Fine Put them in the belt super carrier and titan npc spawns on a 5% drop. So they are actually rare and actually accessible to individual pilots and actually give people a reason to belt rat instead of just smart bombing rock havens for 400mill a hour.
DEV TEAM.
GET A GRIP.
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2017-07-26 02:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Coralas
I'm completely for the development of shipyards for all pirate races, and I'd prefer that programmer time keeps getting sunk into it to iterate on the mechanics of the fleet combat. ie I'd be particularly happy if each racial shipyard was different and some solutions may be strongly blocked (ie ceptors) for some races.

The reason that I'm not interested in the blood raider event is its a long way away in a hostile space with a local entity that is more than capable of fielding 10x over the number of pilots required to beat it. Its an apex event because there is only one of them right now.

A similar spawn in syndicate would be different (even if the first spawns get farmed by orgs we can't compete with).

As far as losing ships go, that is something that I'm generally accept when I fleet up with a ship.

As far as loot goes, CCP already acknowledged ceptor looting was a bad idea, so an organisation that can control the grid and reliably loot, should have enough member cohesion to split the final reward fairly. Since I have 1bil in wallet all the time if I share a ded with someone I just split the drop on tooltip price or lowest contract if its a bp, and thus far other people that have looted encounters have either done similar or sent money when items have sold if they didn't have it handy at the time. ie cooperating over the drop is possible.

As far the initiative works, you guys like to shoot people. Are you scared that traffic might arrive in a cohesive 60 unit blob on the pipe that you are farming ?
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2017-07-26 05:26:57 UTC
Coralas wrote:
I'm completely for the development of shipyards for all pirate races, and I'd prefer that programmer time keeps getting sunk into it to iterate on the mechanics of the fleet combat. ie I'd be particularly happy if each racial shipyard was different and some solutions may be strongly blocked (ie ceptors) for some races.

The reason that I'm not interested in the blood raider event is its a long way away in a hostile space with a local entity that is more than capable of fielding 10x over the number of pilots required to beat it. Its an apex event because there is only one of them right now.

A similar spawn in syndicate would be different (even if the first spawns get farmed by orgs we can't compete with).

As far as losing ships go, that is something that I'm generally accept when I fleet up with a ship.

As far as loot goes, CCP already acknowledged ceptor looting was a bad idea, so an organisation that can control the grid and reliably loot, should have enough member cohesion to split the final reward fairly. Since I have 1bil in wallet all the time if I share a ded with someone I just split the drop on tooltip price or lowest contract if its a bp, and thus far other people that have looted encounters have either done similar or sent money when items have sold if they didn't have it handy at the time. ie cooperating over the drop is possible.

As far the initiative works, you guys like to shoot people. Are you scared that traffic might arrive in a cohesive 60 unit blob on the pipe that you are farming ?



the know the shipyard are only completeable by the people who own the region right. like null blocks.
it provides zero content for 99% of players and gives a small percentage of a drop for one guy. and theyre completely abusable as goons went and did the first ones in punishers. they were a bad idea poorly implemented and an overall waste of time.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#4 - 2017-07-26 07:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
My understanding is they are test bed for new tech that is being developed and are scalable down or up 60 man fleet is not that hard to do and NPC that can kill you is awesome.

Other ppl trying to kill you is what is usually going on in eve.

That is not to say citadel spawn isn't annoying and i would much more prefer that those are not visible if you choose in option not to do so and not deployable on any grid occupied by another structure that way i don't have to see them until i scan em or owner decide it is a freeport in settings,couldn't care less about null sec,cartels drama or politics if CCP cut them off today from rest of new eden eve would be a better place.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2017-07-26 07:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Coralas
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:


the know the shipyard are only completeable by the people who own the region right. like null blocks.
it provides zero content for 99% of players and gives a small percentage of a drop for one guy. and theyre completely abusable as goons went and did the first ones in punishers. they were a bad idea poorly implemented and an overall waste of time.


So when there are 5 up at once all over the galaxy, then a lot more people can access them, and some will be further away from blocs and a lot closer to other people that want to run them and there is the general principle that they need to keep developing fleet and gang pve content. They don't have to perfectly replicate the decisions on the blood raider one for other races.

Its also not an abuse to complete the content in the ships that are capable of completing the content, CCP just has to be encouraged to look at how the content is run, and you are simaltaneously complaining about it being for 1% of players, AND it being completed with a very accessible ship.

Also I'm glad if CCP stops part delivering things and keeps on working until they are nicely polished features.
Spookyjay
Brain Farmers Inc
#6 - 2017-07-26 09:11:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Spookyjay
Coralas wrote:
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:


the know the shipyard are only completeable by the people who own the region right. like null blocks.
it provides zero content for 99% of players and gives a small percentage of a drop for one guy. and theyre completely abusable as goons went and did the first ones in punishers. they were a bad idea poorly implemented and an overall waste of time.


So when there are 5 up at once all over the galaxy, then a lot more people can access them, and some will be further away from blocs and a lot closer to other people that want to run them and there is the general principle that they need to keep developing fleet and gang pve content. They don't have to perfectly replicate the decisions on the blood raider one for other races.

Its also not an abuse to complete the content in the ships that are capable of completing the content, CCP just has to be encouraged to look at how the content is run, and you are simaltaneously complaining about it being for 1% of players, AND it being completed with a very accessible ship.

Also I'm glad if CCP stops part delivering things and keeps on working until they are nicely polished features.



You are naive and miss the point. No one in EVE runs anything PVE for no reward. And these require 59/60 people to want to run them with no reward. Worse they are a bait for ganking by third parties. They are intrinsically flawed. Yes i am fine with the blood raider one as a test bed for advanced npc AI. BUT the entire failure of advanced NPC Ai is that no one wants to do PVE content in a group without equal rewards for each group member. So every instance of advanced NPC AI currently in game is avidly avoided. Now if they had used the same response fleet mechanic on npc titans in the belts that require maybe 4-10 players and had the faction capitals drop from that. It would of been great. Its at a scale a corp or small group can run it. and everyone would be able to share the rewards

And it wont matter if there are 1 or 5. As soon as a blob of dudes appears on the map a hostile player faction will find out and will come to third party and prevent the site ever being run. And it still does not address the problem that this crap is being developed while major game breaking problems in sov and structures are being totally ignored and denied.
Spookyjay
Brain Farmers Inc
#7 - 2017-07-26 09:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Spookyjay
Oh and lets not even start talking about escalation. Where Goons decide to run the blood raider one with the full supercap fleet and 200 fax. Resulting in NPC response having to be so op its game breaking. (I mean from pure lag).
JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2017-07-26 11:16:31 UTC
60 man raid
awesome
maybe we kill lich king at the end
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2017-07-26 13:01:47 UTC
Spookyjay wrote:



You are naive and miss the point. No one in EVE runs anything PVE for no reward. And these require 59/60 people to want to run them with no reward.



its only a 60 player event if you do it in frigates. You can do it with less players with other fleet configurations. Not only that, I never advocated that the other events be copy pastes of this one, nor would I expect that they all take the same numbers to defeat.

Quote:


Worse they are a bait for ganking by third parties.



Surely a pvp organisation like init, likes the idea of a large gankable group forming up to run something in syndicate or cloud ring.

Quote:


They are intrinsically flawed. Yes i am fine with the blood raider one as a test bed for advanced npc AI. BUT the entire failure of advanced NPC Ai is that no one wants to do PVE content in a group without equal rewards for each group member.



Goons have internal agreements on the loot, and internal trust that everyone will get a suitable reward. There are several people in CAS that I would trust to do the same, and surely you have people in init that are similarly trustable ? You seem to be describing an organisational problem as an encounter problem, when really, its an organisational problem.

Furthermore, once goons work out a strategy they'll just keep using it forever, which will rapidly diminish its value as a test bed. Putting it in front of peak autism doesn't necessarily mean its ready for everyone.

Quote:


So every instance of advanced NPC AI currently in game is avidly avoided. Now if they had used the same response fleet mechanic on npc titans in the belts that require maybe 4-10 players and had the faction capitals drop from that. It would of been great. Its at a scale a corp or small group can run it. and everyone would be able to share the rewards



there isn't any reason that the other events can't be sized to some arbitrary concept of a small corp, but incursions and wormholes already fill those size categories.

Quote:


And it wont matter if there are 1 or 5. As soon as a blob of dudes appears on the map a hostile player faction will find out and will come to third party and prevent the site ever being run. And it still does not address the problem that this crap is being developed while major game breaking problems in sov and structures are being totally ignored and denied.


CCP cannot possibly assign their entire workforce to sov, and YOU have the hide to call me naive.

In any case, in a place like syndicate, there are npc stations all over, you can have replacement ships, and/or pvp ships to hand and set your clones there too, and there currently happens to be a very large mercenary organisation based in FD that will likely accept money to protect an operation / get paid off to not attack it themselves.

ie nullsec is political, and politics can be worked to ones advantage, particularly if there is money on the table.



Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2017-07-26 13:04:03 UTC
Spookyjay wrote:
Oh and lets not even start talking about escalation. Where Goons decide to run the blood raider one with the full supercap fleet and 200 fax. Resulting in NPC response having to be so op its game breaking. (I mean from pure lag).


I don't think thats an unreasonable or unexpected outcome really. I also imagine lots of them laughed about it. Its also fun that the content made them try it.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#11 - 2017-07-26 13:28:46 UTC
Look...CCP will continue to build null sec only sites that pay out income to null sec only power blocs because they are directed to, and also CCP does not care a whit about the rest of their player base.

Just the idea that CCP plans on creating more of these proves my comment.
Tristan Valentina
Moira.
Villore Accords
#12 - 2017-07-26 13:36:23 UTC
As above CCP only makes content for the Null Sec Blocks. They get the content and the dev time.

Can you imagine how much fun a smaller version of something like this would be in Low Sec! You know where pirates actually hang out and trade can actually be messed with by something with that level of AI.

Oh well pipe dreams and such.
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2017-07-26 13:57:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Coralas
Tristan Valentina wrote:
As above CCP only makes content for the Null Sec Blocks. They get the content and the dev time.

Can you imagine how much fun a smaller version of something like this would be in Low Sec! You know where pirates actually hang out and trade can actually be messed with by something with that level of AI.

Oh well pipe dreams and such.


The OP is complaining that null has 1 visible dev assigned to null and he's doing content, not fixing sov. You guys are complaining that null has 1 dev assigned to content because its too much ?

Can't tell which one is worse, but both are pretty bad.
Djsaeu
Cresent Hawks
#14 - 2017-07-26 19:50:12 UTC
*BEEP..BEEP..BEEP*

Popcorn
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#15 - 2017-07-26 20:38:13 UTC
Indeed. Awesome thread shortly before the forums shut down Lol.

Remove standings and insurance.

Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2017-07-26 21:49:43 UTC
As an aside to this thread, the shipyard was killed again today, the shipyard was no longer fitted with 4 damps, it was fitted with 4 webs, there was ~120 people on the killmail, the fleet seemed to be battleships, cruisers and logi.

To be honest if it requires ~120 people then it feels more like in smaller entity regions, the entities may have to cooperate rather than compete over it, which is its own interesting political issue.
Bjorn Tyrson
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#17 - 2017-07-28 00:16:40 UTC
Spookyjay wrote:

And these require 59/60 people to want to run them with no reward. Worse they are a bait for ganking by third parties.


If the take from these sites is not being distributed to all the people who participated in it, then the fault lies with the people organizing the fleet, not with CCP. if you aint getting your fair share, either demand your cut, or find a better group to fly with.

and yes, they are bait for third parties. THATS THE POINT!!! its not supposed to be 100% safe content that can be farmed to death, it is designed to encourage pvp action.
Spookyjay
Brain Farmers Inc
#18 - 2017-07-28 15:24:36 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
Spookyjay wrote:

And these require 59/60 people to want to run them with no reward. Worse they are a bait for ganking by third parties.


If the take from these sites is not being distributed to all the people who participated in it, then the fault lies with the people organizing the fleet, not with CCP. if you aint getting your fair share, either demand your cut, or find a better group to fly with.

and yes, they are bait for third parties. THATS THE POINT!!! its not supposed to be 100% safe content that can be farmed to death, it is designed to encourage pvp action.


if they want to encourage pvp. They should fix sov and structures so people have something to actually fight over.
Bjorn Tyrson
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#19 - 2017-07-28 17:56:28 UTC
I sincerely hope they do fix that, and soon, because its current state is just bad for everything. and I do hope they are working on it.
HOWEVER ccp has multiple teams that each work on different aspects of the game.
I can't find a list anywhere of exactly which teams work on which content. but I would sincerely hope that the pvp balance team is not the exact same team that works on creating new pve content (although they likely work together)

Just because they are developing new pve content doesn't mean that they don't have other teams working on how to rebalance the pvp and sov systems. there are also only so many people you can have working on one project at a time before they start just getting in each others way and slowing the process down.
its not just a matter of "stop working on this part of the game and have everyone work on this other part" that won't actually get the fixes needed rolled out any faster, and in fact might slow them down.

I'm glad that they are working on new PVE content, even if this first iteration isn't perfect, it was always intended to be a "proof of concept" that they can iterate on in future. we have desperately needed a complete overhaul to the pve mechanics, and this could very well be the first step (replacing the massively over-farmed incursion system maybe?)

This isn't an either-or sittuation, they are capable of working on both. (although if they aren't then seriously they need to get on that)