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Missions & Complexes

 
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Why should ccp nerf incursions?

First post
Author
Latvinia
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#121 - 2012-01-12 03:15:48 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
As I said before, in the part of my post you neatly cut off, CCP tried to balance incursions around that ideal and failed. They badly misjudged the ease with which VGs can be blitzed.

You also cannot compare HS incursions to LS or null purely on payout, due to the logistics of getting the ships there to run them. They also differ to wormholes or complexes in that they can be found easily on the map through the journal and do not require any scanning to find the sites, again this not only reduces the skill required to run them but greatly benefits pirates if you're going to try and run them in low/null.

The reality is that whilst you could go to a low sec system and run some incursions, gate camps, people trying to kill you and the fact that you aren't going to be in a comparable fleet to those running HS incursions eventually brings your isk/hour below that of HS sites.


And you and others keep ignoring the effect of competition. You cannot endlessly run around in a vanguard system doing one site after another. There is too much competition. There are routinely 5 to 10 groups (per system) running vanguard systems on an average weekend, for what 5 or 6 sites per system? The amount of time spent trying to find an open site (or one that is just started) then trying to outkill the other group leads to lower isk/hr numbers that people like to quote. The net effect is an even lower earning amount compared to losec and/or null.

Yes I think vanguards could be tweaked a bit (though I'd like to seem them harder, with perhaps random triggers and/or more snipers). But then I'd like to see that for sleepers too.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#122 - 2012-01-12 03:25:14 UTC
Latvinia wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
As I said before, in the part of my post you neatly cut off, CCP tried to balance incursions around that ideal and failed. They badly misjudged the ease with which VGs can be blitzed.

You also cannot compare HS incursions to LS or null purely on payout, due to the logistics of getting the ships there to run them. They also differ to wormholes or complexes in that they can be found easily on the map through the journal and do not require any scanning to find the sites, again this not only reduces the skill required to run them but greatly benefits pirates if you're going to try and run them in low/null.

The reality is that whilst you could go to a low sec system and run some incursions, gate camps, people trying to kill you and the fact that you aren't going to be in a comparable fleet to those running HS incursions eventually brings your isk/hour below that of HS sites.


And you and others keep ignoring the effect of competition. You cannot endlessly run around in a vanguard system doing one site after another. There is too much competition. There are routinely 5 to 10 groups (per system) running vanguard systems on an average weekend, for what 5 or 6 sites per system? The amount of time spent trying to find an open site (or one that is just started) then trying to outkill the other group leads to lower isk/hr numbers that people like to quote. The net effect is an even lower earning amount compared to losec and/or null.

Yes I think vanguards could be tweaked a bit (though I'd like to seem them harder, with perhaps random triggers and/or more snipers). But then I'd like to see that for sleepers too.

To be honest the main danger in WHs isn't the NPCs, it's the players. Although (more) random NPC spawns would make them a little less dull.

As for your 5-10 groups per system, as you said, that is purely at peak times on a weekend. If competition is the only limiting factor in isk/hour for incursions, and the only justification for such high payouts, then it's a fatal mistake. Because it allows people to blitz them at off peak hours and reap ridiculous amounts of ISK.

Personally I used to run them quite late at night, and sometimes early morning, and I never experienced any competition coming close to that number of groups. I don't think the ISK I made ever went below 80m an hour, even that was only on occasion when I joined below par groups in the BTL channel.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#123 - 2012-01-12 04:10:41 UTC
of course incursions could be rendered useless, alot of pve folks would get bored cause they dont want to run the same missions over and over so the amount of isk entering the game would slow down, then all the ppl who do wormholes and low/nullsec stuff who kill ships/find loot wouldnt be able to get thier billions of isk cause no one would have it, cept maybe the few who do grind the same mission agent over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Or the mining bots /shrug

so yeah thats it complain that the ppl who buy the stuff on the market are able to buy it, make it so you earn less cause people in turn make less. Less shiney ships to kill, less value in those rare purple fittings. Sounds good.

Really who's going to do missions for weeks to buy a single 1b item, no one
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#124 - 2012-01-12 04:50:48 UTC
Aramatheia wrote:
of course incursions could be rendered useless, alot of pve folks would get bored cause they dont want to run the same missions over and over so the amount of isk entering the game would slow down, then all the ppl who do wormholes and low/nullsec stuff who kill ships/find loot wouldnt be able to get thier billions of isk cause no one would have it, cept maybe the few who do grind the same mission agent over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Or the mining bots /shrug

so yeah thats it complain that the ppl who buy the stuff on the market are able to buy it, make it so you earn less cause people in turn make less. Less shiney ships to kill, less value in those rare purple fittings. Sounds good.

Really who's going to do missions for weeks to buy a single 1b item, no one

What is this I don't even?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#125 - 2012-01-12 08:05:46 UTC
Aramatheia wrote:

Really who's going to do missions for weeks to buy a single 1b item, no one


Thats exactly what people did. There wasn't even as many missions.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#126 - 2012-01-12 08:32:35 UTC
Aramatheia wrote:
of course incursions could be rendered useless, alot of pve folks would get bored cause they dont want to run the same missions over and over so the amount of isk entering the game would slow down, then all the ppl who do wormholes and low/nullsec stuff who kill ships/find loot wouldnt be able to get thier billions of isk cause no one would have it, cept maybe the few who do grind the same mission agent over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Or the mining bots /shrug

so yeah thats it complain that the ppl who buy the stuff on the market are able to buy it, make it so you earn less cause people in turn make less. Less shiney ships to kill, less value in those rare purple fittings. Sounds good.

Really who's going to do missions for weeks to buy a single 1b item, no one


The 1B item costs 1B because ISK lost value. It lost value because there's too much entering the game.

Now, some see this as an attempt at fighting RMT but it is not. RMTers too get to make more ISK to sell (even by just selling the same botted stuff, worth more ISK a piece now), RMTers too can learn and do 0.0 incursions in super-blued renters space where no one will look.

The sad truth is, once a new, challenging game feature becomes mainstream and optimized to the max, it becomes ripe for a nerf.
Look at so many previous iterations... L4 got nerfed once enough people started farming them with methodical efficiency, L5 were the hard thing then people started farming the hi sec ones with methodical efficiency and got them nerfed to low sec.
Same applied to ships (nano nerf), industry and much else.

Like everything in EvE, if something looks too good to be true, it probably is. Bandwagons get nerfed sooner or later.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#127 - 2012-01-12 09:04:01 UTC
your rampant posts with all your alts are getting annoying, every where I go I see nerf nerf nerf, go nerf yourself or go play the game.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#128 - 2012-01-12 09:07:52 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
your rampant posts with all your alts are getting annoying, every where I go I see nerf nerf nerf, go nerf yourself or go play the game.

Cool story bro, needs moar zombies.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#129 - 2012-01-22 10:49:52 UTC
Looking at recent events, my point has been proven, eve like eve should be.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#130 - 2012-01-23 15:29:18 UTC
Sjugar wrote:
Looking at recent events, my point has been proven, eve like eve should be.


You're right. CCP is looking into Incursions and believe that Vanguards are imbalanced compared to the rest of incursion sites.

A fix should come out soon.
Sakura Shiroi
Freelancers' Righteous Escalade
#131 - 2012-01-23 20:50:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sakura Shiroi
XXSketchxx wrote:
Sjugar wrote:
Looking at recent events, my point has been proven, eve like eve should be.


You're right. CCP is looking into Incursions and believe that Vanguards are imbalanced compared to the rest of incursion sites.

A fix should come out soon.


(Incursion-Part starts at Page 13, make sure to read all of it so the context is preserved)
http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2011/CSM_CCP_Mettings_7-9_12_2011.pdf
Page 15:

"Incursion Spawn rate too fast – It was brought up that many in the community feels that the overall Incursion event ends too soon. It was noted that the mothership site can be spotted in a very short time causing the actual incursion to only last a few days in high sec. Both CSM and CCP expressed a desire to increase the duration of an incursion. CCP was clear they want to keep the completion of the incursion event as organic as possible rather than putting in arbitrary tasks that have to be done, as that forces content on to players rather than allowing them to do it themselves. The CSM agreed with this sentiment and that perhaps some simple minimum timers on certain things could help extend the duration of a single incursion as needed."

And i agree that the risk/reward ist unbalanced, especially in vanguards (Also clarified in the Meeting)
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#132 - 2012-01-24 06:06:55 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

CCP knows Incursions are what they want to replace all hisec PVE with. Grouping is the future of EVE. Live with it or go to nullsec.

oh god the irony.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Van Upier
TxivYawg
#133 - 2012-01-24 14:07:51 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
Gritz1 wrote:
Actually, if you guys did go out and kill the mom, thus ending the incursion and not allowing them to farm, you would be a. making isk b. causing much tears. Not a terrible idea.


LOL, but it's easier to bleat and moan in the forums. Yes, that could be done but it'd involve getting off their fat avatar asses, getting organised, and actually doing it. Way better to complain that others are profiting and deriving pleasure from their own efforts.



This thread is an amazing read from pages 1-4, in retrospect. Highly recommended. With Krissanda's one liner delivery, it's like batman begins. A+++