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No Time Dilation | Is it possible? Let's brainstorm

Author
Cade Windstalker
#41 - 2017-07-02 16:56:54 UTC
Octavian Nero Gaius wrote:
radkid10 wrote:
the reason why time dilation exists it doesn't matter how powerful the hardware they would have available to them not everybody else has powerful Hardware they slow things down so it's easier for everybody

I need to tell you about my first experience in a massive PVP battle after 5 minutes of seeing 300 people going my way my graphics card was fried

when I run into players that used to play Darkfall I still make this joke Hyperion owes me a graphics card

you cannot have time dilation in a fantasy MMO :(



I'd simply like to add, *under current Technology* because you or I have no clue what will be developed tomorrow, next year, or next decade. I will leave it at that.


We can make a fairly educated guess though, since it's *incredibly* rare for a new piece of technology to suddenly hit commercialization without quite a bit of telegraphing and run-up to mass market adoption.

Just based on the fundamental nature of computers we'll never a hit a point where TiDi will be unnecessary unless the server can manage to handle something ridiculous like 50% of cluster PCU without hitting it, because otherwise someone will cram everyone they can into a system just because they can and we'll be back to TiDi.
Octavian Nero Gaius
Flaming Fist Rising
Warped Intentions
#42 - 2017-07-03 01:24:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Octavian Nero Gaius
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Octavian Nero Gaius wrote:
radkid10 wrote:
the reason why time dilation exists it doesn't matter how powerful the hardware they would have available to them not everybody else has powerful Hardware they slow things down so it's easier for everybody

I need to tell you about my first experience in a massive PVP battle after 5 minutes of seeing 300 people going my way my graphics card was fried

when I run into players that used to play Darkfall I still make this joke Hyperion owes me a graphics card

you cannot have time dilation in a fantasy MMO :(



I'd simply like to add, *under current Technology* because you or I have no clue what will be developed tomorrow, next year, or next decade. I will leave it at that.


We can make a fairly educated guess though, since it's *incredibly* rare for a new piece of technology to suddenly hit commercialization without quite a bit of telegraphing and run-up to mass market adoption.

Just based on the fundamental nature of computers we'll never a hit a point where TiDi will be unnecessary unless the server can manage to handle something ridiculous like 50% of cluster PCU without hitting it, because otherwise someone will cram everyone they can into a system just because they can and we'll be back to TiDi.




I have seen fights at 1000 with very little TiDi and quite smooth and responsive. If we can have 5000 people in a fight, and have that kind of performance, if you flood the system expect 10% speed it's progression. I would be quite satisfied with 5000 people and smooth performance.

And I would attack multiple objectives to force commanders to divert forces to respond thus having 2 epic battles but smaller.
radkid10
Universal Exos
#43 - 2017-07-03 08:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: radkid10
Octavian Nero Gaius wrote:
radkid10 wrote:
the reason why time dilation exists it doesn't matter how powerful the hardware they would have available to them not everybody else has powerful Hardware they slow things down so it's easier for everybody

I need to tell you about my first experience in a massive PVP battle after 5 minutes of seeing 300 people going my way my graphics card was fried

when I run into players that used to play Darkfall I still make this joke Hyperion owes me a graphics card

you cannot have time dilation in a fantasy MMO :(



I'd simply like to add, *under current Technology* because you or I have no clue what will be developed tomorrow, next year, or next decade. I will leave it at that.

nothing against Eve online but by the time that technology is available it will probably be dead I don't see eve living for 40 years is another 10 to 15 years away

only if they give up their current infrastructure and go into cloud computing
CCP needs to research improbable OS the see if it's possible to make Eve compatible with it or Eve online 2 if they ever plan to make one which is highly unlikely

https://improbable.io/games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTuijWHwAsk
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#44 - 2017-07-03 08:25:09 UTC
radkid10 wrote:
Octavian Nero Gaius wrote:
radkid10 wrote:
the reason why time dilation exists it doesn't matter how powerful the hardware they would have available to them not everybody else has powerful Hardware they slow things down so it's easier for everybody

I need to tell you about my first experience in a massive PVP battle after 5 minutes of seeing 300 people going my way my graphics card was fried

when I run into players that used to play Darkfall I still make this joke Hyperion owes me a graphics card

you cannot have time dilation in a fantasy MMO :(



I'd simply like to add, *under current Technology* because you or I have no clue what will be developed tomorrow, next year, or next decade. I will leave it at that.

nothing against Eve online but by the time that technology is available it will probably be dead I don't see eve living for 40 years is another 10 to 15 years away

only if they give up their current infrastructure and go into cloud computing
CCP needs to research improbable OS the see if it's possible to make Eve compatible with it or Eve online 2 if they ever plan to make one which is highly unlikely


You miss the point. CCP would have to rewrite the whole game to go into a cloud-based server. They do not have the time or the funding to do that without killing the game. CCP themselves have said that they don't have any plans on making Eve 2.

Wormholer for life.

mkint
#45 - 2017-07-03 11:48:32 UTC
radkid10 wrote:
Octavian Nero Gaius wrote:
radkid10 wrote:
the reason why time dilation exists it doesn't matter how powerful the hardware they would have available to them not everybody else has powerful Hardware they slow things down so it's easier for everybody

I need to tell you about my first experience in a massive PVP battle after 5 minutes of seeing 300 people going my way my graphics card was fried

when I run into players that used to play Darkfall I still make this joke Hyperion owes me a graphics card

you cannot have time dilation in a fantasy MMO :(



I'd simply like to add, *under current Technology* because you or I have no clue what will be developed tomorrow, next year, or next decade. I will leave it at that.

nothing against Eve online but by the time that technology is available it will probably be dead I don't see eve living for 40 years is another 10 to 15 years away

only if they give up their current infrastructure and go into cloud computing
CCP needs to research improbable OS the see if it's possible to make Eve compatible with it or Eve online 2 if they ever plan to make one which is highly unlikely

https://improbable.io/games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTuijWHwAsk


Last I checked, "cloud" =/= "magic".

Cloud typically just means something is stored or run on a distributed server rather than locally. What do you *think* is happening in EVE? So much facepalm. EVE is already extremely distributed, except for Dogma. It's embarassing that CCP (a company that runs one of the most advanced server clusters on the planet) has to keep explaining over and over again (to random schmucks who think their starbucks "barista" jobs qualifies them as engineers) why Dogma isn't multithreaded. The reason Dogma doesn't run multithreaded is because the overhead cost to do so would result in *worse* performance than a single thread. Even if they recoded it from the ground up.

There are a total of 2 ways to guarantee no tidi.

1) do what other MMOs do and limit player counts.
2) have enough processing power on a single core that the population of the entire cluster can play on one node. This would mean either a super powerful processor powered by unicorn farts and imagination, or far more likely a post apocalyptic TCU.

So yes, re: the title of the thread, yes it is possible to have no tidi. But the cost to doing so would be stupid. And don't you think, just maybe, that the people who get paid to do nothing else but make sure the server runs with the most effective setup in the world wouldn't be extremely aware of every development in the industry, both hardware and software? Man, sometimes EVE players are embarrassing.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Octavian Nero Gaius
Flaming Fist Rising
Warped Intentions
#46 - 2017-07-03 13:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Octavian Nero Gaius
mkint wrote:
radkid10 wrote:
Octavian Nero Gaius wrote:
radkid10 wrote:
the reason why time dilation exists it doesn't matter how powerful the hardware they would have available to them not everybody else has powerful Hardware they slow things down so it's easier for everybody

I need to tell you about my first experience in a massive PVP battle after 5 minutes of seeing 300 people going my way my graphics card was fried

when I run into players that used to play Darkfall I still make this joke Hyperion owes me a graphics card

you cannot have time dilation in a fantasy MMO :(



I'd simply like to add, *under current Technology* because you or I have no clue what will be developed tomorrow, next year, or next decade. I will leave it at that.

nothing against Eve online but by the time that technology is available it will probably be dead I don't see eve living for 40 years is another 10 to 15 years away

only if they give up their current infrastructure and go into cloud computing
CCP needs to research improbable OS the see if it's possible to make Eve compatible with it or Eve online 2 if they ever plan to make one which is highly unlikely

https://improbable.io/games

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTuijWHwAsk


Last I checked, "cloud" =/= "magic".

Cloud typically just means something is stored or run on a distributed server rather than locally. What do you *think* is happening in EVE? So much facepalm. EVE is already extremely distributed, except for Dogma. It's embarassing that CCP (a company that runs one of the most advanced server clusters on the planet) has to keep explaining over and over again (to random schmucks who think their starbucks "barista" jobs qualifies them as engineers) why Dogma isn't multithreaded. The reason Dogma doesn't run multithreaded is because the overhead cost to do so would result in *worse* performance than a single thread. Even if they recoded it from the ground up.

There are a total of 2 ways to guarantee no tidi.

1) do what other MMOs do and limit player counts.
2) have enough processing power on a single core that the population of the entire cluster can play on one node. This would mean either a super powerful processor powered by unicorn farts and imagination, or far more likely a post apocalyptic TCU.

So yes, re: the title of the thread, yes it is possible to have no tidi. But the cost to doing so would be stupid. And don't you think, just maybe, that the people who get paid to do nothing else but make sure the server runs with the most effective setup in the world wouldn't be extremely aware of every development in the industry, both hardware and software? Man, sometimes EVE players are embarrassing.




You obscene, vulgar, coarse, inconsiderate arrogant person. I wasn't rude. But hey, can't expect much from "Eve Players" Am I right? Thank God they have a block function in this game, so i don't have to ever experience your existence again.
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2017-07-05 16:33:50 UTC
What about ship movement? how much server calculation is needed to keep track of all the ships direction and speed?

Would it be possible to utilize a similar mechanic to that of the new fighter squadrons? As it stands tons of people are already Anchoring up during these fights, what if the "Anchoring" was a mechanic in the game that was used to reduce the number of processes needing. I am no computer guru so I hope someone else here understands what I mean.

Obviously this is over simplified and there are a lot of factors like skills that would make this a bit more complicated.

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#48 - 2017-07-05 16:47:18 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
What about ship movement? how much server calculation is needed to keep track of all the ships direction and speed?

Would it be possible to utilize a similar mechanic to that of the new fighter squadrons? As it stands tons of people are already Anchoring up during these fights, what if the "Anchoring" was a mechanic in the game that was used to reduce the number of processes needing. I am no computer guru so I hope someone else here understands what I mean.

Obviously this is over simplified and there are a lot of factors like skills that would make this a bit more complicated.


Off the top of my head, that would cause issues with turret-tracking, drone-tracking, at least. Probably other things as well.

Wormholer for life.

Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2017-07-05 17:03:04 UTC
Remove downtime.

Force players to actually "finish" a battle of this scale, or leave their ships floating in space among the carnage.

Make it easier to jam out cyno becons to lower the rate at which reinforcements can enter the system/ force groups to work on cyno jaming/ destroying jammers in system. I would say possibly just increase the range of the mobile cyno inhib to come in line with the new grid size.

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2017-07-05 17:04:13 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
Remove downtime.

Force players to actually "finish" a battle of this scale, or leave their ships floating in space among the carnage.

Make it easier to jam out cyno becons to lower the rate at which reinforcements can enter the system/ force groups to work on cyno jaming/ destroying jammers in system. I would say possibly just increase the range of the mobile cyno inhib to come in line with the new grid size. Possibly even several AU

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#51 - 2017-07-05 17:28:38 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Remove downtime.

Force players to actually "finish" a battle of this scale, or leave their ships floating in space among the carnage.

Make it easier to jam out cyno becons to lower the rate at which reinforcements can enter the system/ force groups to work on cyno jaming/ destroying jammers in system. I would say possibly just increase the range of the mobile cyno inhib to come in line with the new grid size. Possibly even several AU



CCP cannot just remove it. There are certain things that need to be done daily for the game to work properly and the servers need maintenance as well.

Wormholer for life.

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2017-07-05 20:13:29 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Remove downtime.

Force players to actually "finish" a battle of this scale, or leave their ships floating in space among the carnage.

Make it easier to jam out cyno becons to lower the rate at which reinforcements can enter the system/ force groups to work on cyno jaming/ destroying jammers in system. I would say possibly just increase the range of the mobile cyno inhib to come in line with the new grid size. Possibly even several AU



CCP cannot just remove it. There are certain things that need to be done daily for the game to work properly and the servers need maintenance as well.


Arguably they could move it when a big fight happen but we know the EVE player base would cheese it for all it's worth by finding the threshold they need to get over if they are winning and just need more time to mop up the opposition.
mkint
#53 - 2017-07-06 01:28:56 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Remove downtime.

Force players to actually "finish" a battle of this scale, or leave their ships floating in space among the carnage.

Make it easier to jam out cyno becons to lower the rate at which reinforcements can enter the system/ force groups to work on cyno jaming/ destroying jammers in system. I would say possibly just increase the range of the mobile cyno inhib to come in line with the new grid size. Possibly even several AU



CCP cannot just remove it. There are certain things that need to be done daily for the game to work properly and the servers need maintenance as well.


Arguably they could move it when a big fight happen but we know the EVE player base would cheese it for all it's worth by finding the threshold they need to get over if they are winning and just need more time to mop up the opposition.

This. Both of these. I would be interested to see a "why we still need downtime" devblog, but yeah, at the moment it's still apparently necessary. Think I'll start a thread on the new forums, see if we can't get some dev attention. And for moving it, obviously it'd be gamed. Especially when people start figuring out the all consequences and find ways to profit from it financially.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#54 - 2017-07-06 18:32:57 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Remove downtime.

Force players to actually "finish" a battle of this scale, or leave their ships floating in space among the carnage.

Make it easier to jam out cyno becons to lower the rate at which reinforcements can enter the system/ force groups to work on cyno jaming/ destroying jammers in system. I would say possibly just increase the range of the mobile cyno inhib to come in line with the new grid size. Possibly even several AU



CCP cannot just remove it. There are certain things that need to be done daily for the game to work properly and the servers need maintenance as well.


Arguably they could move it when a big fight happen but we know the EVE player base would cheese it for all it's worth by finding the threshold they need to get over if they are winning and just need more time to mop up the opposition.


Being that you are smart enough to figure this tactic out I think we can assume all the larger groups can figure it out also. With both sides knowing, there would be a bit of a different line of thinking applied to larger fights. I think that would be good.

It seems like you're implying:
You: hay guys, we're winning, let's pile in a ton of assets and lock out DT to wipe the field.
(cyno, cyno, cyno, cyno......)
PL: Oh crap, we didn't even consider DT being locked out.
(PL generates an entertaining rage sound file **think ARMOR HACKS times like 10 or something**)

Newsflash sweety - these fights are always controlled by groups that have been metagamingtheshit ouf of EVE for a decade. I'm feeling you're just afraid of maybe risking/losing you ships (not that WWB didn't make that clear enough). It's a good idea, you're just scared, we get that. Mutal assured cheesing will be the new norm. I likey!!!!
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#55 - 2017-07-06 18:37:25 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Remove downtime.

Force players to actually "finish" a battle of this scale, or leave their ships floating in space among the carnage.

Make it easier to jam out cyno becons to lower the rate at which reinforcements can enter the system/ force groups to work on cyno jaming/ destroying jammers in system. I would say possibly just increase the range of the mobile cyno inhib to come in line with the new grid size. Possibly even several AU



CCP cannot just remove it. There are certain things that need to be done daily for the game to work properly and the servers need maintenance as well.



I'm sure 1 day a year (based on the current frequency of the fights I speak of) won't kill the servers. Even if it's a little risky - I would go for it just for the sake of epic game play.

Just for my own knowledge, could you list the things you know for sure won't survive past 24hrs??
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#56 - 2017-07-06 20:25:19 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Xzanos wrote:
Remove downtime.

Force players to actually "finish" a battle of this scale, or leave their ships floating in space among the carnage.

Make it easier to jam out cyno becons to lower the rate at which reinforcements can enter the system/ force groups to work on cyno jaming/ destroying jammers in system. I would say possibly just increase the range of the mobile cyno inhib to come in line with the new grid size. Possibly even several AU



CCP cannot just remove it. There are certain things that need to be done daily for the game to work properly and the servers need maintenance as well.



I'm sure 1 day a year (based on the current frequency of the fights I speak of) won't kill the servers. Even if it's a little risky - I would go for it just for the sake of epic game play.

Just for my own knowledge, could you list the things you know for sure won't survive past 24hrs??


Only CCP knows what things are that critical. I doubt they take that decision lightly, so there must be a pretty good reason for having it happen every day.

Wormholer for life.

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2017-07-06 20:29:00 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:


Newsflash sweety - these fights are always controlled by groups that have been metagamingtheshit ouf of EVE for a decade. I'm feeling you're just afraid of maybe risking/losing you ships (not that WWB didn't make that clear enough). It's a good idea, you're just scared, we get that. Mutal assured cheesing will be the new norm. I likey!!!!


The GRRRR is so strong with you you could not realize I was not against this idea but only mentioned that like nearly everything else, people would cheese it. The real "Issue" I can see with it is actually the opposite where people might be less willing to commit if they can't be saved by the bell. I don't know what it involve from CCP'ss ide to move/cancel the maintenance so I can't say much over it.

As for fear of losing ships, I make money on most ships I lose in PvP so vOv.
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