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Potential ways out of the current unstable market conditions?

Author
Azuregos
RHP Mining Company
Federation of Respect Honor Passion Alliance.
#1 - 2017-06-28 15:47:23 UTC
Hi everyone,

there are a few topics around the forums that are discussed quite a bit. Plex prices, the huge amount of ISK generated by anomalies and the various changes that are supposed to fix the issue.

My theory is that they are connected. Players have realized that Plex is a very profitable investment. So they buy it, just to sell it later for more, after all the price of Plex seems to know only one direction. And the huge amounts of ISK being generated means that a lot of Plex is the target of this investment strategy. All this drives up Plex prices.

So the answer to this cycle was to nerf the top tier culprits of this ISK printing. And it seems reasonable at first. However I feel that there are other ways to solve all this, all with their own pros and cons. I would not nerf Super-capitals as they add quite a bit to the "landscape" and it would be a pity if you never saw them except in really huge engagements(which seem to get rarer). And owning one should feel good and you should use it and not treat it like some fragile piece of art stored away somewhere except for special occasions.

So here are my Ideas on how to solve the whole thing


1.) Inflation: Instead of battling against the inflationary tendencies, just let it happen. Several aspects of the game will need to be adjusted to bring the different incomes closer together(for example missions). Over time prices will again stabilize, but at a much higher level.

Pros: No nerfs needed, indeed some (currently not as profitable) things will (need to) get buffed;

Cons: Short-term turmoil as the market re-balances(overshoots likely); Current ISK stockpiles are greatly devalued; Quite a bit of work involved for CCP to balance ISK generating activities.


2.) Anomaly changes: Here I would NOT go into the direction of making the anomalies harder to do with certain ships, but rather change them, such that they become more ISK-neutral. One way would be that NPCs in anomalies have no bounties at all, but once you finish one you get a chunk of ISK and some kind of LP. This LP can then be exchanged for items, and it could even be made so that the LP type you get depends on the NPC you have, which would make regions with certain NPCs more valuable than others (short-mid term based on how active these regions are with active regions haven lower valued LP).

Pros: Self-regulating as value of LP can vary depending on how much is created; Relatively easy to implement i would guess;

Cons: LP stores have to be carefully balanced to not render other LP based activities worthless and to avoid over-correcting (making ISK too scarce, causing deflation).

3.) Create more ISK sinks for capital/super-capital class ships/play-styles: Here my ideas are thin, but it could be something like docking fees, fees for using normal gates, some kind of "radiation buildup"(that disables your modules if it accumulates to a too high level) while your ships is in space that can only be removed for ISK, etc. As I said my Ideas here are not so great, but the concept should be clear.

Pros: No changes needed to existing systems.

Cons: Good Ideas need to be thought up, new systems introduced.

So, three ways that I can think of, all not perfect, but perhaps a starting point for some other ideas/discussions
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#2 - 2017-06-28 16:43:02 UTC
If you look at the consumer price index in the monthly economic report you will see that the CPI has been falling since 2005. Rapidly at first, then a few years of stability then slowly downward for the past few years. Denominated in ISK, everything but PLEX is cheaper than it used to be - this is deflation, not inflation.

The same MER will also show that the money supply has been growing faster than the economy for a long time - possibly since day 1. Older players are sitting on mountains of ISK with nothing to spend it on. If they do spend it, the ISK remains in the game - it simply moves to a different wallet.

New Eden doesn't import anything from the outside world except PLEX. The materials needed to make the stuff on the in game market are infinite and stuff never wears out so, as long as production exceeds destruction, the value of goods will tend to go down - there is no scarcity.

PLEX, on the other hand, are purchased with real world money so they are limited supply and they have value outside the game economy - whether you want game time, skill extractors or vanity items from the NES. For this reason, they are the preferred place to store wealth.

To fix the problem, CCP needs to remove ISK from the game. The money supply should not grow unless the economy is growing.

Overproduction is also a problem - as mentioned, the economy is deflating in spite of the massive increase in the money supply. If players aren't willing to balance this with explosions, maybe things need to have a lifespan - simply stop working after a year or two. Players could then reprocess them (50% yield) and rebuild.

Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#3 - 2017-06-28 17:46:23 UTC
I'm not sure about removing isk from the game (I assume you don't mean erasing the currency but rather attempting to keep the isk faucet and sink equal to each other)

The main issue is that isk is often temporarily removed from the market... in the form of players becoming inactive. If I have a trillion isk and I decided to stop playing eve... that trillion isk is technically still in the game... but it is outside the economy as it just sits in my wallet. On the same note... if I come back a year later than a trillion isk gets injected into the economy that wasn't in the economy beforehand.

It's tough to account for that when balancing isk faucets and sinks. I think there is a slightly positive "sweet spot" with isk faucets exceeding isk sinks. I don't think break even works.

We do need more sinks I think. I tend to favor that solution rather than turning off the faucet... simply because doing something like decreasing bounties impacts everyone (the rich and poor alike) while adding sinks that target those with large amounts of isk will allow newer players to grow.

I think a simple start would be to change clothing/cosmetics available from LP stores to not cost anything other than LP and isk... and make the isk price very large. Perhaps reduce the LP and increase the isk portion of buying many other LP purchases as well. Items purchased from the LP store remove isk from the economy... so it might be beneficial to maximize that. By lowering the lp cost and increasing the isk cost, you allow more isk to be spent on LP store items with less grinding needed to get those things... causing more purchases that remove isk from the game.
grgjegb gergerg
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2017-06-29 01:05:36 UTC
That, and perhaps give players ways to completely waste ISK? Reskin the monocle, make it cost something ridiculous like 10 trillion each, and bind on purchase so people don't just pass them around for screenshots.

Or let the players fund empires taking systems from each other, exorbitant rates, and no guarantee of any payout. If the empire you backs takes systems, you might get one of those state hulls that aren't sourced any other way.


I'm thinking CCP doesn't actually care very much, though. Why would they care if things get cheaper? They just don't want rapid fluctuations screwing things up, or things getting priced out of the reach of new players enough to frustrate them out of the game. As long as they get their PLEX and subscriptions, they win regardless.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2017-06-29 01:40:42 UTC
OP, I mean this in the most sincere way possible. For the love of your financial life, do not ever go into financial trading or investment of any kind. Your theories on market movements are... wrong. For the reasons already stated.
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#6 - 2017-06-29 08:48:17 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
OP, I mean this in the most sincere way possible. For the love of your financial life, do not ever go into financial trading or investment of any kind. Your theories on market movements are... wrong. For the reasons already stated.

This is what I love about Eve.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Azuregos
RHP Mining Company
Federation of Respect Honor Passion Alliance.
#7 - 2017-06-29 12:25:38 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
OP, I mean this in the most sincere way possible. For the love of your financial life, do not ever go into financial trading or investment of any kind. Your theories on market movements are... wrong. For the reasons already stated.


So you mean to say adding more ISK to the EVE economy will have no impact at all and the current situation is not a problem?

Well perhaps the fact that this money lands in the pockets of a relatively small number of players could have an impact.

Obviously the overproduction going on mentioned before is a valid point as well, usually you would expect this to make the product unprofitable and production would stop, but then again (unlike in real life) you can store anything in huge quantities without any costs, so huge stockpiles exist. But that would only mean that it would take quite a while for the increased money to show an effect, not that it will have none at all.

In fact I would argue that we do not see drastic decreases in the cost of items is only due to the large influx of ISK.

But looking at the economic report you can see the velocity of ISK being on a relatively high level, so the ISK people have gets spend or "invested". My impression is that this higher level is almost exclusively Plex related. But maybe I am wrong and everyone buys titans instead.

The only other thing I can think of is how the ISK is actually distributed. If people who are very rich have a higher tendency to stop playing, they would actually remove ISK from the active cycle, but according to the economic report it does not look like this is the case. So then the only thing that remains is that fewer people own more ISK so that the "masses" are not actually any richer and therefore prices cannot increase.

So if all these relations are wrong - please tell me why.
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#8 - 2017-06-29 13:11:10 UTC
Do Little wrote:

PLEX, on the other hand, are purchased with real world money so they are limited supply and they have value outside the game economy - whether you want game time, skill extractors or vanity items from the NES. For this reason, they are the preferred place to store wealth.

To fix the problem, CCP needs to remove ISK from the game. The money supply should not grow unless the economy is growing.

Overproduction is also a problem - as mentioned, the economy is deflating in spite of the massive increase in the money supply. If players aren't willing to balance this with explosions, maybe things need to have a lifespan - simply stop working after a year or two. Players could then reprocess them (50% yield) and rebuild.


I believe that Skill extractors and injectors would be considered an isk sink as well. Granted that SP generated is providing an ISK income for some players, it also means that SP is also a bankable commodities. You are still monetizing your time and finding alternative way to cash out your plex.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#9 - 2017-06-29 18:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Axure Abbacus wrote:
Do Little wrote:

PLEX, on the other hand, are purchased with real world money so they are limited supply and they have value outside the game economy - whether you want game time, skill extractors or vanity items from the NES. For this reason, they are the preferred place to store wealth.

To fix the problem, CCP needs to remove ISK from the game. The money supply should not grow unless the economy is growing.

Overproduction is also a problem - as mentioned, the economy is deflating in spite of the massive increase in the money supply. If players aren't willing to balance this with explosions, maybe things need to have a lifespan - simply stop working after a year or two. Players could then reprocess them (50% yield) and rebuild.


I believe that Skill extractors and injectors would be considered an isk sink as well. Granted that SP generated is providing an ISK income for some players, it also means that SP is also a bankable commodities. You are still monetizing your time and finding alternative way to cash out your plex.


The only ISK sunk by extractors and injectors is through taxes and brokers fees, and for the latter, only when in an NPC station. An isk sink isn't "something people spend money on", it's something that deletes money from the game. If your money is just going to other players, it's not a sink.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2017-06-29 19:13:19 UTC
I dont know why this came to mind but im sure many of us have played Warcraft, one of the mechanics that i thought was very unique about the game was the "supply" i dont remember exactly what it was called but it basically was an upkeep cost when your army reached a certain size.

What if hanger space hand a similar mechanic? You want to store 1 million drakes in your citadel or station? Be prepared to pay the upkeep cost. This could be a flat rate based on m3 or a percentage of the market value of the items. This would force not only manufactures to judge the demand for items and not overproduce to avoid huge storage/upkeep costs. As well as force large power blocks to determin how much of a stockpile they are willing to keep around. I mean just think about the storage costs for a citadel full of supers.

While i realize there are many exploits/ workaround that players could employ using alt accounts and corps, I think something like this could be a step in the right direction, and just kinda makes sense IMO.

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

grgjegb gergerg
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2017-07-02 02:05:22 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
I dont know why this came to mind but im sure many of us have played Warcraft, one of the mechanics that i thought was very unique about the game was the "supply" i dont remember exactly what it was called but it basically was an upkeep cost when your army reached a certain size.

What if hanger space hand a similar mechanic? You want to store 1 million drakes in your citadel or station? Be prepared to pay the upkeep cost. This could be a flat rate based on m3 or a percentage of the market value of the items. This would force not only manufactures to judge the demand for items and not overproduce to avoid huge storage/upkeep costs. As well as force large power blocks to determin how much of a stockpile they are willing to keep around. I mean just think about the storage costs for a citadel full of supers.

While i realize there are many exploits/ workaround that players could employ using alt accounts and corps, I think something like this could be a step in the right direction, and just kinda makes sense IMO.

If hangar mechanics of any one type of hangar become more restrictive, people will stop using it as completely as they can.

If ALL (or most) hangar mechanics become restrictive, players will throw an absolute shitfit, myself included.

If hangars start requiring fees, returning players will be screwed, if they're bankrupted they will just bail completely. And rightfully so.

If the system can be gamed, like with large amounts of Alphas, it WILL be gamed. Legions of Alpha alts, contracting stuff back and forth from mains, for instance.

There's probably more reasons why this is a terrible idea, but I'll stop there.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#12 - 2017-07-02 10:55:11 UTC
@ Op.
The recent change was nothing to do with the markets. Or not in a direct matter anyway.
It was to do with a small portion of the game producing isk out of proportion with the rest of the game. Or to put it perhaps better, wealth concentration.

EVE as a game wants everyone to have plenty of isk to use & lose cool stuff. If the isk skews too much into a small percentage of players hands, other people get locked off from a lot of cool stuff by the isk barrier. Obviously you don't want it to be too easy either or the stuff ceases to be cool since it has no meaning, and people should be rewarded for smart play, but it was out of scale.

A supply mechanic would not have been a bad thing to begin with though it would have to be set very high, but introducing it now is pretty much impossible, too many groups would suddenly get hit by massive bills. Instead I'd suggest looking at high sec, and while you can't own sov in highsec if there was more meaning to highsec wars I suspect a LOT of isk and material would get sunk on them. May I suggest removing 90% of high sec stations for example, so citadel control in a system matters.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#13 - 2017-07-02 13:43:22 UTC
buying plex and selling it for isk is not isk printing. The people that buy the plex off the market are not exactly isk printing determining what their job is.

ISK printing revolves around the creating of ISK from this air.

This would be activities like PVE bounties, incursions, and selling thins to the npc market.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2017-07-03 00:39:54 UTC
Axure Abbacus wrote:
Do Little wrote:

PLEX, on the other hand, are purchased with real world money so they are limited supply and they have value outside the game economy - whether you want game time, skill extractors or vanity items from the NES. For this reason, they are the preferred place to store wealth.

To fix the problem, CCP needs to remove ISK from the game. The money supply should not grow unless the economy is growing.

Overproduction is also a problem - as mentioned, the economy is deflating in spite of the massive increase in the money supply. If players aren't willing to balance this with explosions, maybe things need to have a lifespan - simply stop working after a year or two. Players could then reprocess them (50% yield) and rebuild.


I believe that Skill extractors and injectors would be considered an isk sink as well. Granted that SP generated is providing an ISK income for some players, it also means that SP is also a bankable commodities. You are still monetizing your time and finding alternative way to cash out your plex.

Nope theyre faucets. Because of the ghost training alone players have already generated trillions of isk with it and the extractors generated money for CCP which is why they never bothered addressing it till now.
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2017-07-05 16:36:22 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
@ Op.
The recent change was nothing to do with the markets. Or not in a direct matter anyway.
It was to do with a small portion of the game producing isk out of proportion with the rest of the game. Or to put it perhaps better, wealth concentration.

EVE as a game wants everyone to have plenty of isk to use & lose cool stuff. If the isk skews too much into a small percentage of players hands, other people get locked off from a lot of cool stuff by the isk barrier. Obviously you don't want it to be too easy either or the stuff ceases to be cool since it has no meaning, and people should be rewarded for smart play, but it was out of scale.

A supply mechanic would not have been a bad thing to begin with though it would have to be set very high, but introducing it now is pretty much impossible, too many groups would suddenly get hit by massive bills. Instead I'd suggest looking at high sec, and while you can't own sov in highsec if there was more meaning to highsec wars I suspect a LOT of isk and material would get sunk on them. May I suggest removing 90% of high sec stations for example, so citadel control in a system matters.


Isk is already extremely skewed into a small percentage of players.

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2017-07-05 16:48:46 UTC
grgjegb gergerg wrote:

If hangar mechanics of any one type of hangar become more restrictive, people will stop using it as completely as they can.

If ALL (or most) hangar mechanics become restrictive, players will throw an absolute shitfit, myself included.

If hangars start requiring fees, returning players will be screwed, if they're bankrupted they will just bail completely. And rightfully so.

If the system can be gamed, like with large amounts of Alphas, it WILL be gamed. Legions of Alpha alts, contracting stuff back and forth from mains, for instance.

There's probably more reasons why this is a terrible idea, but I'll stop there.


The total storage fee would be due upon reactivating the account. You could pay it as a lump sum or pay for individual items. Or you could even just sell all them items. I imagine it would take quite a long time for your storage fee to be more than the value of the items being stored even over a few years time. 3% per month over 12 months would only be 36% of the cost of the item. Im sure all those economics experts at ccp could come up with a reasonable percentage.

Pushing players to sell off their stockpiles will only help lower the average market price of items as supply increases.

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2017-07-05 17:42:46 UTC
Do Little wrote:
If you look at the consumer price index in the monthly economic report you will see that the CPI has been falling since 2005.



FINALLY!

Finally, somebody else noticed this and has posted it.

Holy **** it took a long time....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Cindy the Sewer
Radiation Sickness
#18 - 2017-07-06 08:42:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cindy the Sewer
1) That CCP devs decided the solution to the rorqual problem was to make the new mining meta Rorquals, Rorquals, Rorquals, and more Rorquals and to make their ISK/HR ridiculously high it took me all of 0.0000000001 seconds to see how stupid it was and that the devs spent months (years?) working on the Rorqual problem and that the 'OP Rorqual' was their solution shows just how bad CCP devs are at developing their own game.

2) That CCP devs decided to nerf down the mining rate of the Rorqual tells me that whomever washes the floors in their conference rooms had a great idea that at least CCP devs were smart enough to recognize as a good idea and implement it.

p.s. thank you floor washing dude!


3) CCP came up fail again when it basically punished a large well organized group of players (grrr....goons!) for being,.....well.....large and well organized !!!

(could CCP have sucker punched the very core upon which EVE game play and culture are based any harder, i have to hope not but given CCPs track record i seriously doubt this is the upper limit of their ability to fail).

4) As to monetary inequality, it is an inherent product of an open economy, even when some party is attempting to moderate that economy, doing so ultimately is futile and with respect to CCP they should be ashamed at their pathetic attempt to do so.

5) The goons have made it quite apparent their their strategy for dominating in EVE is numbers, numbers and more numbers of players working together towards common goals and given EVEs core game mechanics this approach is going to continue to dominate EVE game play no matter what CCP does.

Searing destruction of your viewpoint is incoming and no you won't win the discussion or even walk away with anything resembling a win, so bail out early or suffer repeated embarrassments. You have been warned.

Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#19 - 2017-07-06 10:40:25 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Do Little wrote:
If you look at the consumer price index in the monthly economic report you will see that the CPI has been falling since 2005.



FINALLY!

Finally, somebody else noticed this and has posted it.

Holy **** it took a long time....

Now we can officially retired this forum.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.