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Potentially Insane Change to Blops

Old Pervert
Caldari State
#1 - 2017-06-30 22:34:18 UTC
Disclaimer: I haven't thought this idea through at all. In other words, troll your very hardest, it could very well be (and probably is) an utterly stupid idea.

So... as we all know, BLOPs don't stand a chance in a real fight.

And that's a shame. They should at the very least be able to go pound for pound against T1 Battleships, to the point where it would be a coin toss to see who won.

Obviously the BLOPs would lose the isk war, but perhaps not the battle.

What if they could fit Standup Guided AM Bombs, a launcher with enough capacity for a single bomb, 60 second reload timer?

It would certainly change the dynamics of a counter/bait-drop though, if they could MJD out 100km and then launch bombs at a counter-drop. It would force the counter/bait-drop to be at-risk as well.
Old Pervert
Caldari State
#2 - 2017-06-30 22:36:06 UTC
Also, imagine a fleet fight, with Black ops BBs doing bombing runs instead of bombers. Decloak, bombing run, start sniping, then warp off and reset for another bombing run when things get close.
Cade Windstalker
#3 - 2017-07-01 00:05:47 UTC
I feel like this would just make them stupidly OP. Like, if you could use structure bombs on these things forget small gang warfare (where Blops generally shine) I'd use em in big fleet fights to nuke blobs.

If you want them to stand up to T1 Battleships just increase their base stats, that's basically the only place they lack compared to a T1 hull.
Old Pervert
Caldari State
#4 - 2017-07-01 00:25:33 UTC
Well, to be fair, I did specifically say the AM bomb rather than just structure bombs - would keep them from void bombing... although theoretically you would become the defacto choice for dropping on capitals.

The AM bombs would add some very exciting fleet tactics.

The BLOPS BBs still have their usual weaknesses.. they're squishy, they can't warp cloaked, and being BBs they won't align fast. Regrouping like a regular bomber group would certainly open them up to risks. But at the same time, they'd be able to sit and trade shots for a short while too, opposed to where bombers have to warp pretty much as soon as they launch.

Having thought about it more, I think that with some balance and sanity testing, it would open up a whole new world for them. Running a whole fleet of them would probably not do very well given their cost. But running 10-15 of them in a wing for hit and run ops during a fleet fight would be wicked fun.

They could get cynoed in rather than warping cloaked, at least for their initial attack. If they were brawling fit they could launch bombs then MJD in with proper timing to try and rip things apart. How freaking awesome.

Basically the bombs would add a whole new level of "smash and run" to the BLOPs mandate. As long as it wasn't too much damage.

If it was, maybe just limit them to AS bombs instead of AM bombs. Enough to soften up a fleet that would otherwise be dangerous to it.
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#5 - 2017-07-01 00:38:33 UTC
This could potentially be okay for the Widow and the Panther could revert to the typhoon missile boat's configuration.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Old Pervert
Caldari State
#6 - 2017-07-01 01:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
I'd rather see the Widow keep its ECM bonus - but that's a whole different ball of wax.

The Panther as-is would be able to fit howitzers and alpha things.. I'm not sure that moving it to missiles would be beneficial. Imagine a squad of Panthers cyno in on a fleet fight, launch their bombs (in waves if need be) and then start volleying stuff while they're softened from the bombs. Basically a surprise Mach fleet lol.

The 'deemer might be a prime candidate for brawling, iirc it can generally fit the best tank. Launch bombs, wait a few seconds, spool MJDs, then rip into the enemy fleet with Conflag and grapplers.

Widow would be able to use its jams to repel carriers while using bombs to deal with any subcap reinforcements. Missile travel time kind of sucks though. Would probably force it into a torpedo fit to brawl, or a cruise missile fit to hang back a very long distance. (edit: torpedo fit, they'd become exceptional carrier killers, assuming they can lock the fighters and jam them out before they get blapped).

And the Sin would also have to be a brawler, otherwise it would plaster its own drones. Same M.O. as the 'deemer, with a bigger focus on the rack of neuts to break active tanks.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#7 - 2017-07-01 02:26:29 UTC
Blops really just need to be able to warp cloaked, Then they can roam as well as hotdrop. Sure they are great for hotdrops, but eh.
Old Pervert
Caldari State
#8 - 2017-07-01 02:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
They'd also be neigh uncatchable, save for bubble camps.

At the end of the day, they'll still get destroyed if they end up in a straight fight whether it's after you show up on intel or whether you catch a drag bubble. Roaming with them conventionally is asking to get them blown up. (edit: and they're slow as ****, which means a roam would take half a dog's life to get anywhere fun).

That's where this idea comes in.

They already shine in small-gang drops, as was mentioned. By giving them access to a small radius guided bomb it would allow them to get dropped in on an enemy fleet mid-fight (keeping them in their role as suddenly battleships), cause massive damage to a ball of anchored logistics ships, use guns to finish a bunch of them off (keeping them in their role as "suddenly I'm in my pod? When did tha-... oh"), then hopefully warp off again before the enemy fleet kills them.

It potentially makes them viable in small and large events. Assuming you're willing to risk a squad of 2bil ships in a large fight where there's a good potential for them to get blapped. They still would never be able to stand toe to toe with a traditional pvp fleet, however supporting a traditional pvp fleet would lead to some serious synergy.
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#9 - 2017-07-01 18:22:05 UTC
I would be open to just not showing up on d scan if covert ops cloak is too op for Black ops. Would the change be removing a turret slot or adding a launcher slot?

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Old Pervert
Caldari State
#10 - 2017-07-01 19:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
Axure Abbacus wrote:
I would be open to just not showing up on d scan if covert ops cloak is too op for Black ops. Would the change be removing a turret slot or adding a launcher slot?

Neither, it would require a utility slot. Ergo you could fit your covops cloak and a bomb launcher, or a covops cloak and a CJPG. Or if you really wanted you could just fit the bomb launcher to one of your hardpoints, but that is probably not such a good decision lol.

The panther and the sin would of course not have to make that decision, they have an extra utility slot over the widow and the deemer. Not problematic though.
James Zimmer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2017-07-02 19:56:27 UTC
BLOPS hotdrops are currently the most effective form of non-strategic combat, and are therefore used in very high volumes. Giving BLOPS a bomb launcher will grant them effective immunity to stealth bomber counter-drops. They certainly don't need a buff like this. If you want to make BLOPS better against T1 BSs (which is something I don't think they need), I suggest a more straightforward buff to their combat stats.
Old Pervert
Caldari State
#12 - 2017-07-03 03:07:23 UTC
I would disagree entirely. Every blops fight is strategic. If you're indiscriminately attacking things, you're gonna lose it. You pick your fights carefully, which makes it strategic.

As for your argument, I fail to see the logic. Would you willingly bomb yourself?

A counter-drop will 9/10 be at close range. An AM bomb (which would have horrid application against a bomber btw) detonating at close range would do way more damage to the blops ships than to the bombers.

If they can MJD out to make bombs feasible, then you kind of deserve to lose your counter-drop for not scramming the massive sig-bloomed battleships. Assuming that AM bombs did anything meaningful to them in the first place.

I don't just want them to stand up to T1 BS.

I want them to become viable for hit and run (suddently battleships) in fleet ops. Basically add to them a very similar engagement profile as a bomb fit bomber, with the previously mentioned differences.

Now they become much more widely used in more than just deleting ratters.
Old Pervert
Caldari State
#13 - 2017-07-03 03:18:09 UTC
For example, consider a nullsov citadel timer.

Two mach fleets square off on each other, and they start volleying each other off until one falls below critical mass.

Suddenly 2 volleys into the fight battleships cyno in on the cloaked bomber that got a warp-in 50km off of them, launch a wave of bombs, and start unloading massive gank on whatever survives the bomb wave.

The existing friendly mach fleet no longer worries about doing alpha strikes, they just go weapons free and rip the other group to shreds.

Yes, bombers can do this already. In fact they can do it better. But they can't stay on-grid and start shooting, unless they want to pop quickly. Against the above, machs might tear them to shreds too, but if you time it right the two fleets will be able to kill the machs before the blops start taking significant losses.

There are many ways to counter the above, some of which include:
1) Don't bring an alpha fleet
2) Be ready to MJD away, which you can do before bombs travel 50km
3) Don't anchor
4) Counter-drop them