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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Heat and Module Damage repair

Author
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2017-06-26 01:27:40 UTC
Hey guys so I have had this idea rolling around in my head for a while. I dont know if it should be a ship or a module or a combination of a few different things which i figure will probably be the case.

Anyways there are two general ideas.

Number one, a module that can siphon heat from a ship and turn it into capacitor. Maybe a script for Nosferatu?

Number two, a module that can repair ship modules, maybe a script for hull repairs?? lol

Anyways with the way citadels repair you now i figured it would be a great opportunity to discuss.

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Cade Windstalker
#2 - 2017-06-26 01:36:15 UTC
Number one would either be useless or *incredibly* broken. If I'm understanding your intent here you're basically letting someone turn a downside into a bonus.

Number two, it's called Nanite Repair Paste, there is zero reason to ever fit a module to do this.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#3 - 2017-06-27 05:04:15 UTC
In combination, this sounds like a crappy way to get more cap and better performance at the cost of two mod-slots.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2017-06-27 17:08:39 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
In combination, this sounds like a crappy way to get more cap and better performance at the cost of two mod-slots.


Cap chain logi would have a field day perma-overheating to generate cap for their buddy while never burning out modules.
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2017-06-29 18:54:15 UTC
I feel like everyone just assumes that there would be no way to make this balanced, so its just a crap idea...

1. I dont think that it would be balanced in a way that would allow for perma overheat. While i think it should be able to extend the time in which you can overheat, especially the time it takes for heat to actually start doing damage to modules, I figure that the heat generated by modules would increase overtime to the point that the "heat transfer" module would be overcome.

2. You would not be able to combine the two as you would still not be able to repair a module that is active. It would however allow a smaller group to hit above its fleet size for a period of time before having to extract and "repair modules"

Also just to clarify these would not be modules you fit on your own ship, but remote assist modules like remote reps and energy transfer.

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Cade Windstalker
#6 - 2017-06-29 20:26:05 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
I feel like everyone just assumes that there would be no way to make this balanced, so its just a crap idea...

1. I dont think that it would be balanced in a way that would allow for perma overheat. While i think it should be able to extend the time in which you can overheat, especially the time it takes for heat to actually start doing damage to modules, I figure that the heat generated by modules would increase overtime to the point that the "heat transfer" module would be overcome.

2. You would not be able to combine the two as you would still not be able to repair a module that is active. It would however allow a smaller group to hit above its fleet size for a period of time before having to extract and "repair modules"

Also just to clarify these would not be modules you fit on your own ship, but remote assist modules like remote reps and energy transfer.


Counter point: I don't think you've fully considered the balance implications of what you're proposing, and you have no reasoning for the changes you want to see beyond "I had an idea and I think it would be cool." It doesn't enable anything special or particularly interesting and there's no niche to be filled by either of these modules.


  1. At which point you just pulse the overheat off for a period of time and bring down both your overall heat as well as heat generation, all while gaining the benefits of the module feeding off the heat. Even if this was *just* a module to allow increased overheating it has the potential to be very OP, since often in PvP the ability to overheat more than your opponent can turn into a win condition all on its own.

  2. Again, Nanite Repair Paste already does this. There's zero reason to ever use a module slot for this. Ever. NRP is cheap, readily available, and takes almost no cargo space.


I would also like to point out that "oh these are remote modules" isn't clarification, it completely changes your idea, and honestly makes them even more OP since it means you don't need to mount them on your own ship, especially one that repairs modules for free, since that would be a pretty good way to crash the Nanite Repair Paste market.



While it is true that one shouldn't assume that something will be inherently imbalanced the opposite also applies. Not everything can be balanced and not all ideas are worth pursuing with the effort required to implement them in a balanced state.

This is definitely one of those times. The first half of your idea significantly messes with the balance of overheating, and the second has little reason to exist because its function is already taken by a readily available consumable.
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2017-06-29 20:59:43 UTC
Cade Windstalker. wrote:

See Above


First of i want to say thanks for your posts, and don't take this as argument.

I do not disagree with anything about your first counter point. But i do believe that it introduces an entire new roll in fleets. How does this not improve the dynamic of fleet tactics? While I agree that overheating can determine the outcome of a fight there are plenty of things in Eve that can already turn a fight one sided and they are available to everyone. logi vs no logi for instance. this would just be one more layer of cake.

The second point is that there is no reason for a module that does what NRP does on its own, So i guess i will just throw out a few things that COULD make it different. less consumption, faster repair time, can repair fully burnt out modules (like a citadel)

Sorry i was not very clear about them being remote modules in the first post, I knew what i was talking about and when I made the comparison to Nosferatu I should not have assumed everyone would understand LOL

But im not sure how them being logistic type modules makes them more broken??

10x ships 100dps = 1000 dps + overload = 1150
9x ships + 1 "heat logi" = 900 dps + overload bonus = 1020
above also assumes that the "heat logi" would have 8 high slots and field 8 heat transfers, i doubt that is how it would be implemented. so the actual effectiveness could be even less

While staggering heat reps and overload the fleet with more ship types and roles is able to do more damage over time. but the fleet with more main line ships will do more raw dps. and neither fleet will be able to rep heat damage without stopping dps as you still would not be able to repair active modules so eventually your modules will accumulate damage.

I just feel that more versatility and roles available to fill will only make fleet fights more tactical and enjoyable. Require more active perticipation in fights rather than anchor, ctrl click broadcast, and, f1

Sorry if that got a bit ranty

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2017-06-30 13:40:47 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
Cade Windstalker. wrote:

See Above


First of i want to say thanks for your posts, and don't take this as argument.

I do not disagree with anything about your first counter point. But i do believe that it introduces an entire new roll in fleets. How does this not improve the dynamic of fleet tactics? While I agree that overheating can determine the outcome of a fight there are plenty of things in Eve that can already turn a fight one sided and they are available to everyone. logi vs no logi for instance. this would just be one more layer of cake.

The second point is that there is no reason for a module that does what NRP does on its own, So i guess i will just throw out a few things that COULD make it different. less consumption, faster repair time, can repair fully burnt out modules (like a citadel)

Sorry i was not very clear about them being remote modules in the first post, I knew what i was talking about and when I made the comparison to Nosferatu I should not have assumed everyone would understand LOL

But im not sure how them being logistic type modules makes them more broken??

10x ships 100dps = 1000 dps + overload = 1150
9x ships + 1 "heat logi" = 900 dps + overload bonus = 1020
above also assumes that the "heat logi" would have 8 high slots and field 8 heat transfers, i doubt that is how it would be implemented. so the actual effectiveness could be even less

While staggering heat reps and overload the fleet with more ship types and roles is able to do more damage over time. but the fleet with more main line ships will do more raw dps. and neither fleet will be able to rep heat damage without stopping dps as you still would not be able to repair active modules so eventually your modules will accumulate damage.

I just feel that more versatility and roles available to fill will only make fleet fights more tactical and enjoyable. Require more active perticipation in fights rather than anchor, ctrl click broadcast, and, f1

Sorry if that got a bit ranty


The problem is that for it to get used in fleet, it will have to be explicitly better than one of the roles taken in fleets and that's where balance issue start appearing. Why would I bring a heat-sink ship if it end up generating less benefit than adding another ship of X role? Does sacrificing a logi ship for a heat sink gives me total better rep? What about a dps ship? What about any support ship? That's a key problem with adding roles to fleets. It literally has to be better than something else or nobody will care except those who care because they think wrong.
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2017-06-30 14:04:08 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

The problem is that for it to get used in fleet, it will have to be explicitly better than one of the roles taken in fleets and that's where balance issue start appearing. Why would I bring a heat-sink ship if it end up generating less benefit than adding another ship of X role? Does sacrificing a logi ship for a heat sink gives me total better rep? What about a dps ship? What about any support ship? That's a key problem with adding roles to fleets. It literally has to be better than something else or nobody will care except those who care because they think wrong.


Exactly and in this situation I think it is just that, While not outright better with skilled pilots and a lengthy fight this will result in more damage over time or reps over time output by a fleet of equal size that does not have "heat logi"

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp Alliance
#10 - 2017-06-30 14:27:15 UTC
I may be overheating from all the talk about overheating, but has anyone considered "weaponize heat weapons" as in dealing direct heat damage to someone's fit? I instantly understand that it is a whorrrobbbily broken idea, but nonetheless keep thinking it when it read this thread...1k OH bomber fleets reducing entire fleets engagements to yelling contests cause everyone's guns are burnt out.

Several ships have bonuses to resist overheating damage, T3's, DST's...any others?

For number two...yeah. As a remote repair module it make for heat tanking ships, is my thought and it is still another broken concept that would allow for OH spider tanked munchkin fleets.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Cade Windstalker
#11 - 2017-06-30 14:27:43 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

The problem is that for it to get used in fleet, it will have to be explicitly better than one of the roles taken in fleets and that's where balance issue start appearing. Why would I bring a heat-sink ship if it end up generating less benefit than adding another ship of X role? Does sacrificing a logi ship for a heat sink gives me total better rep? What about a dps ship? What about any support ship? That's a key problem with adding roles to fleets. It literally has to be better than something else or nobody will care except those who care because they think wrong.


Exactly and in this situation I think it is just that, While not outright better with skilled pilots and a lengthy fight this will result in more damage over time or reps over time output by a fleet of equal size that does not have "heat logi"


This is just power creep though.

You're not adding anything particularly interesting or special, it's just another type of ship where having it boosts your fleet power and not having it doesn't.

Just because you've created a new role doesn't mean you've created new gameplay. We could make a new Combat Booster ship that boosts fleet damage by 10%, and that would be a new role, but it wouldn't be anything special or different from a Command Ship, it's just providing a different bonus and not having one is bad if you have more than 10 people in fleet.

Command Destroyers created an interesting new role for fleets. They serve as a form of area and distance control and they served the goal of making Eve combat more positional and creating options for controlling that position.

This doesn't add anything special though, it's just another form of Logi. Either the math says you should use them or you shouldn't. There's no interesting gameplay added, just a small bit of power creep.

Make sense?
Xzanos
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2017-06-30 14:46:04 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Make sense?


Sure but comparing it to a booster ship is a bit off, boosters are a very passive role where logi have to actively participate in the fight.

The interesting game play that it adds is actually getting to use overheating during fleet fights more than 1 or 2 bursts before your modules are on the brink.

*activates thermal hardeners for incoming flame

Cade Windstalker
#13 - 2017-06-30 15:42:27 UTC
Xzanos wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Make sense?


Sure but comparing it to a booster ship is a bit off, boosters are a very passive role where logi have to actively participate in the fight.

The interesting game play that it adds is actually getting to use overheating during fleet fights more than 1 or 2 bursts before your modules are on the brink.


Again, you can already do this and people do. If they're going to they bring Nanite Repair Paste. The reason people rarely repair mid-fight is because it's more worthwhile to simply shoot normally after you're out of damage capacity on a module rather than take the time to repair it.

The Command Ship comparison was just to show that just because something is technically a "new role" that doesn't mean that it's interesting or in any way actually new, it could just be requiring a new hull on the field but with no really novel or interesting gameplay attached to it.

That's what this is.

The comparison to Logi is certainly more apt, but it's still not providing any kind of interesting or different gameplay compared to Logi, it's just adding another thing into the spreadsheet math before a fight that everyone uses to determine if they have a chance of winning. That's just power creep, it's not actually adding anything that's actually interesting or worth adding.

It's like adding a new type of turret. Sure, you've just given players a new option, but realistically you've either caused some kind of stat creep, whether it's range, tracking, or something else, or you've just given a new division on the various trade-offs between range, tracking, damage, ect. That's not interesting or needed, and adding something just for the sake of adding it is a waste of dev time that could be better spent on other things.