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Built In Warp Disruptor

Author
MRietfors
Lumen et Umbra
#1 - 2017-06-23 16:23:10 UTC
Suppose some ships hulls have a built in Warp disruptor (or scrambler) capability.

I would say Battleships or bigger and maybe some t3 cruisers/HAC and big transport ships.

What will happen?
All good pilots will finally have a change to retaliate in solo pvp against pirates instead of just tring to escape.
Think twice before getting a newbie into a trap, he can now tackle you.

Some collaterals:
- scramblers in modules will stil have better statistics (range & strenght) so they will still be useful
- when in fleet, all built-in scramblers/disruptors will not add theior strenght so total strenght will still be one so fleets will still working as before


Do you see anything against this proposal?
Mri
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2017-06-23 16:30:42 UTC
Scan shielding rigs, each rig hides random modules from incoming scans (full rigging hides 99%, or something ridiculous like that, of your slots from each scan) or has a chance to block a scan and alert the target that they are being scanned
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#3 - 2017-06-23 16:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
MRietfors wrote:
Suppose some ships hulls have a built in Warp disruptor (or scrambler) capability.

I would say Battleships or bigger and maybe some t3 cruisers/HAC and big transport ships.

What will happen?
All good pilots will finally have a change to retaliate in solo pvp against pirates instead of just tring to escape.
Think twice before getting a newbie into a trap, he can now tackle you.

Some collaterals:
- scramblers in modules will stil have better statistics (range & strenght) so they will still be useful
- when in fleet, all built-in scramblers/disruptors will not add theior strenght so total strenght will still be one so fleets will still working as before


Do you see anything against this proposal?
Mri


So you think freeing up a mid-slot on a gank ship that now gets to fit more control/application/prop/tank/whatever is going to work in favor of scrubs who are so opposed to learning to play that they head to the forum to ask for free fittings?

Really?

Just remember Malcanis's law. Anything you can use, we can use better.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Cade Windstalker
#4 - 2017-06-23 18:06:10 UTC
This is the exact opposite of what will happen.

You can already fit a Scram or a Warp Disruptor to a PvE ship, the reason few people do it is because it's not worth much as a tactic. The ship that's fit for PvP as opposed to PvE will be the one that wins the engagement. You being able to hold a PvPer on-field won't change that, the only reason he might want to run is if he's already losing the fight.

What this would basically do is hand PvPers a ship with a free mid-slot that they can then use for more tank/gank/support/another Warp Scram.

Oh and that's without even getting into the fundamental issues with giving a ship a free slot, and then forcing it to be one specific module, and a quite powerful and commonly used PvP module at that. You've even had to make this thing act weirdly in fleets and, for some weird reason, not stack with other modules even though *every other warp disruption device* stacks for you to think it might possibly be balanced...

IMO this is a very poorly thought out concept and would in no way achieve what you want it to achieve.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2017-06-23 19:02:57 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

What this would basically do is hand PvPers a ship with a free mid-slot that they can then use for more tank/gank/support/another Warp Scram.


This thanks for freeing up a mid slot/giving me a free warp disruptor on all of my PvP ships.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#6 - 2017-06-23 19:29:41 UTC
Is there anything stopping you from fitting a point at the moment? And if a free scram allows you to beat the bad guy, how can you not fight him off without holding him on grid?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2017-06-23 19:35:54 UTC
MRietfors wrote:
What will happen?
All good pilots will finally have a change to retaliate in solo pvp against pirates instead of just tring to escape.


All good pilots will either not get tackled, or force the pirate off grid if they see the fight being one they should be able to win.

Think about it.

High sec: All you need to do is survive until concord arrives. If it's a war and you undock solo, you're not a good player.
Low sec: dscan, local, etc.
Null sec: dscan, local, etc.

Having a free point (especially one of shorter range) on their ship just means that you are committing yourself to a fight that the pirate already believes they'll win. If not they wouldn't have warped to you.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#8 - 2017-06-23 20:12:04 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
MRietfors wrote:
What will happen?
All good pilots will finally have a change to retaliate in solo pvp against pirates instead of just tring to escape.


All good pilots will either not get tackled, or force the pirate off grid if they see the fight being one they should be able to win.

Think about it.

High sec: All you need to do is survive until concord arrives. If it's a war and you undock solo, you're not a good player.
Low sec: dscan, local, etc.
Null sec: dscan, local, etc.

Having a free point (especially one of shorter range) on their ship just means that you are committing yourself to a fight that the pirate already believes they'll win. If not they wouldn't have warped to you.


I kind of think he meant "good pilots" in a moral sense. Not that that's any less absurd.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Dark Lord Trump
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2017-06-23 21:37:27 UTC
Valdr Auduin wrote:
Scan shielding rigs, each rig hides random modules from incoming scans (full rigging hides 99%, or something ridiculous like that, of your slots from each scan) or has a chance to block a scan and alert the target that they are being scanned

1. Why would I waste rig slots on that? The vast majority of things will just shoot me instead, and will do so with greater success since I just flushed all my rigs down the toilet.
2. You run into the blockade runner issue: if you have something to hide you probably have something valuable, and will therefore become a target.
3. You can already tell when you're being scanned. Look for the beam coming off a scanning ship.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp Alliance
#10 - 2017-06-24 18:45:28 UTC
Um, don't need a free Point to be a good player, just be a good player.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#11 - 2017-06-25 14:45:54 UTC
MRietfors wrote:
Suppose some ships hulls have a built in Warp disruptor (or scrambler) capability.

I would say Battleships or bigger and maybe some t3 cruisers/HAC and big transport ships.

What will happen?
All good pilots will finally have a change to retaliate in solo pvp against pirates instead of just tring to escape.
Think twice before getting a newbie into a trap, he can now tackle you.

Some collaterals:
- scramblers in modules will stil have better statistics (range & strenght) so they will still be useful
- when in fleet, all built-in scramblers/disruptors will not add theior strenght so total strenght will still be one so fleets will still working as before


Do you see anything against this proposal?
Mri

We will start with it is a terrible idea for all the reasons noted above.

Personal thoughts.
Terrible idea because you just like most of the rest have not tried to think of anything on the negative side that would balance this so go back and look at your idea again, add those negative factors and then bring it back. Some possible ideas.
1. reduce cpu and pg by the average amount used by the current modules.
2. remove a mid slot.
3. you have a start now you figure out what works best across all possible ships and fits.
MRietfors
Lumen et Umbra
#12 - 2017-06-28 10:26:35 UTC
The point is this:

Many ppl go around doing PVE and optimize the fit for PVE.
Many got ambushed, from newbies in high secs to veteran in null secs, and it is eve, you can like or not but it is the way it works today.

Now the problem is:
Any time a PVEer is attacked, today, they have now way to retaliate at all, they can just ty to flee.
If the PVE ship is stronger or the pilot is better than the PVPer, He cannot win anyway since the attacker can just warp away.
If the PVP tackle but cannot kill the PVE ship, just wait, keep him tackled, call in friends and he win.

In summary:
- if you are in a PVE fit you have no chance apart from run away
- if you are the PVP ship you have no fear, you can't lose you can only win
Is this fun? I think no.
A pirate that cannot lose is good game design?

That's the basis of my proposal for a built in warp disruptor, but other ideas are welcome as well.

Mri
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp Alliance
#13 - 2017-06-28 11:59:41 UTC
Situations where a PVE fit ship is agressed does happen. The pilot's job is knowing when it is most likely and adapt play styles. You can PVe in some PVP fit ships. I kick missions around in a shield tanked SIN with a full rack of blasters the ehp spread is leaner but since i do use it for some missions i have a better sense of when Its in trouble.

I would suggest you look at the Barghest or a Vindicator as a mission beast. Both are bonused for pvp and melt face. They also don't have the words "naked and vulnerable" etched into the hull like some mission boats. Raven much these days?

A navy Scorpion Could also do nicely.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Cade Windstalker
#14 - 2017-06-28 13:47:03 UTC
MRietfors wrote:
The point is this:

Many ppl go around doing PVE and optimize the fit for PVE.
Many got ambushed, from newbies in high secs to veteran in null secs, and it is eve, you can like or not but it is the way it works today.

Now the problem is:
Any time a PVEer is attacked, today, they have now way to retaliate at all, they can just ty to flee.
If the PVE ship is stronger or the pilot is better than the PVPer, He cannot win anyway since the attacker can just warp away.
If the PVP tackle but cannot kill the PVE ship, just wait, keep him tackled, call in friends and he win.

In summary:
- if you are in a PVE fit you have no chance apart from run away
- if you are the PVP ship you have no fear, you can't lose you can only win
Is this fun? I think no.
A pirate that cannot lose is good game design?

That's the basis of my proposal for a built in warp disruptor, but other ideas are welcome as well.

Mri


The answer to this is to fit a Point or Scram to your ship if you want to catch the people who try to gank you. You're gaining something you should have to make a trade-off to do so.

Also, as *several* people have pointed out, this sort of thing benefits the PvPers more than the PvEers you're so desperate to hand an advantage to, because they now have an extra slot to play with to optimize their PvP fit, where as your PvE fit is just as likely to lose as before.

In short, if you want to kill people trying to gank your PvE ship then bite the bullet and fit a point, or don't complain that you got beaten at something you're not willing to make concessions to be good at.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2017-06-28 19:47:55 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Is there anything stopping you from fitting a point at the moment? And if a free scram allows you to beat the bad guy, how can you not fight him off without holding him on grid?


Well you know, my ticks aren't as dank if I sacrifice a med slot for a point/scram on my ratting boat. Lol
MRietfors
Lumen et Umbra
#16 - 2017-06-30 10:47:18 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Is there anything stopping you from fitting a point at the moment? And if a free scram allows you to beat the bad guy, how can you not fight him off without holding him on grid?


Well you know, my ticks aren't as dank if I sacrifice a med slot for a point/scram on my ratting boat. Lol



I still see PVPer worried that PVE can bite them and no real proposal to give equal chance to players to compete.

First: PVPer optimze ships for PVP why PVEer shall sub-optimize their ship only to have a chance ?
Second: EVE is about risk, why PVPer have a large number of risk free-targets, especailly newbies, that can only try to run and have no chance to retaliate? This is not good PVP and it's bad new player experience
Third: you are right that freeing up a slot for PVPer make thing worse, but we can have other ideas to solve this problem, be creative!

Proposal TWO: If ship A scramble ship B then ship B can freely disrupt ship A as long as it is on Grid and within 20km range.
In this case we wont free any midslot.
Anything against this?

Mri
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2017-06-30 13:31:49 UTC
MRietfors wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Is there anything stopping you from fitting a point at the moment? And if a free scram allows you to beat the bad guy, how can you not fight him off without holding him on grid?


Well you know, my ticks aren't as dank if I sacrifice a med slot for a point/scram on my ratting boat. Lol



I still see PVPer worried that PVE can bite them and no real proposal to give equal chance to players to compete.

First: PVPer optimze ships for PVP why PVEer shall sub-optimize their ship only to have a chance ?
Second: EVE is about risk, why PVPer have a large number of risk free-targets, especailly newbies, that can only try to run and have no chance to retaliate? This is not good PVP and it's bad new player experience
Third: you are right that freeing up a slot for PVPer make thing worse, but we can have other ideas to solve this problem, be creative!

Proposal TWO: If ship A scramble ship B then ship B can freely disrupt ship A as long as it is on Grid and within 20km range.
In this case we wont free any midslot.
Anything against this?

Mri


First: Fitting choice matter. If you want to go tot he limit of doing job A, it's normal to suck at job B. If job B is holding a target on grid, though ****, change your fit or deal with it. The options are already in game.

Second: If you fit your PvE boat with some PvP in mind, you can introduce that risk already. No need for any change. You make the decisions to have tackle or not.

Third: No need for free slots for anyone when all ships have options already. Fitting choice are supposed to matter so those precious med slot need to be though around. Make your own choices and everyone else will do theirs.

Proposal two: Again, there is no need for change. If you want to be able to point or scram or web or damp or paint or disrupt another ship, you already have options for that. There is no need for built-in modules. Use the options you already have access to just like everyone else already does.
Cade Windstalker
#18 - 2017-06-30 14:32:15 UTC
MRietfors wrote:
I still see PVPer worried that PVE can bite them and no real proposal to give equal chance to players to compete.

First: PVPer optimze ships for PVP why PVEer shall sub-optimize their ship only to have a chance ?
Second: EVE is about risk, why PVPer have a large number of risk free-targets, especailly newbies, that can only try to run and have no chance to retaliate? This is not good PVP and it's bad new player experience
Third: you are right that freeing up a slot for PVPer make thing worse, but we can have other ideas to solve this problem, be creative!

Proposal TWO: If ship A scramble ship B then ship B can freely disrupt ship A as long as it is on Grid and within 20km range.
In this case we wont free any midslot.
Anything against this?

Mri


If you wanna bite then fit a bloody point to your ship...

You optimized for PvE so you shouldn't complain when you can't compete in PvP. This is basically wanting to have your cake and eat it too. A PvP pilot doesn't complain that they can't engage in PvE while they're roaming around looking for targets.

If you want to compromise then actually compromise instead of begging for a freebie module so you don't have to sacrifice anything for this advantage that you want.

There is no need to 'solve this problem' because it's not a problem. It's you not liking that you have to make a trade-off to hold and kill the guy trying to kill you... This could just as easily be some PvPer complaining that they have to give up tank or utility to fit a point, so they should get a free point because it's required for PvP, and the argument there would be just as ridiculous as the one you're presenting here.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#19 - 2017-06-30 14:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
MRietfors wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Is there anything stopping you from fitting a point at the moment? And if a free scram allows you to beat the bad guy, how can you not fight him off without holding him on grid?


Well you know, my ticks aren't as dank if I sacrifice a med slot for a point/scram on my ratting boat. Lol



I still see PVPer worried that PVE can bite them and no real proposal to give equal chance to players to compete.

First: PVPer optimze ships for PVP why PVEer shall sub-optimize their ship only to have a chance ?
Second: EVE is about risk, why PVPer have a large number of risk free-targets, especailly newbies, that can only try to run and have no chance to retaliate? This is not good PVP and it's bad new player experience
Third: you are right that freeing up a slot for PVPer make thing worse, but we can have other ideas to solve this problem, be creative!

Proposal TWO: If ship A scramble ship B then ship B can freely disrupt ship A as long as it is on Grid and within 20km range.
In this case we wont free any midslot.
Anything against this?

Mri


No, you do not get free ship fittings.

Proposal THREE: You HTFU and learn to fit your ship instead of expecting the entire game to be altered to accommodate your gross incompetence.

Spoiler alert: This one is going to be the winner.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp Alliance
#20 - 2017-06-30 14:57:26 UTC
okay, much about eve isn't fit or sp, its about mindset and intent. You get into your PVe ship and blap red x's where a Pvp'r sees you as just another red X. You are a risk free target not because of your fit but because someone drops on your grid you lack the pvp experience not to panic and spam warp while he burns your ship like a Faction spawn. Some fights are just the math who wins but sometimes its just who messes up first.

Its just pixels so have fun. Go burn a stack of frigates roaming and talk to people...GF and all. Look at cheep incursions fleets. You don't need uber ships or build in Points, just other pilots willing to fly with you and you can go where ever you damn well please. Add just one more pilot when you are running mission and blitzing them is quick; makes you a different target.

I hope this helps, Fly safe o7

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.