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Change Mineral Abundance to Scarcity

Author
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#1 - 2017-06-21 12:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Axure Abbacus
[Eve currently has a system where fighting over resources only happens at moons. All other materials are in infinite supply. In order to dry up the mineral market and drive conflict I propose drastically scaling back mining belt regeneration during downtime. Have Belts fully reset once a week on Sunday morning. The rest of the week only regenerate 10% of full value of belts. ]

This Idea is Flawed. While rooting in basic Economic and Consumer behavior manipulation principals, it was poorly thought through and presented. I recommend that CCP creates entirely new forums, quarantine these existing forums for 90 days, in order to fully contain these sleep deprived writings from the easily influenced or poorly educated in economics/business ethics.

Make mining more dynamic to add a sense of scarcity and interesting level of competition. The Ice Harvesting changes from Odyssey is a good approach that could be taken with Ore.

-Reduce belt yield by 77+/-% (1-3T value per region)
-Increase chance of Ore Anomalies by 33%
-Increase chance of C1-C2 Worm holes by 33%

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvSSujU5R3s


Bernadette: Sheldon, when was the last time you got any sleep?

Sheldon: I don’t know, two, three days. Not important. I don’t need sleep, I need answers. I need to determine where in this swamp of unbalanced formulas squatteth the toad of truth.

Bernadette: Okay, Sheldon. What happens to our neuroreceptors when we don’t get enough REM sleep?

Sheldon: They lose their sensitivity to serotonin and norepinephrine.

Bernadette: Which leads to…?

Sheldon: Impaired cognitive function.

Bernadette: Right, so march in there, brush your teeth and go to bed.

Sheldon: But I don’t want to go to bed.

Bernadette: I’m going to count to three. One…

Sheldon: Oh, all right.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#2 - 2017-06-21 13:14:10 UTC
Any changes on this matter would be nice not sure CCP will do anything.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Cade Windstalker
#3 - 2017-06-21 13:16:33 UTC
This is a terrible idea.

If basic minerals to be mined (as opposed to mining rate vs consumption) are so scarce that people need to fight over them then what exactly are they going to fight with? Normally the answer when you can't actually build anymore guns and ships would be "rocks" but in this case that'd be a little ironic...

The scarcity in the mineral market is a function of what people are willing and able to mine vs what the market is able to absorb, we don't need a drastic drop in the amount of minerals actually entering the game, that would be nothing but bad for the Eve economy.

For an example of this see the recent effects of the Rorqual for what happens when things go the opposite direction...
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#4 - 2017-06-21 13:39:52 UTC
Terrible, no i would have to disagree with you on that. Realistically you are over estimating the effect a change to belts would effect EVE.

There is a huge difference between the minerals mined and minerals available in eve. You can look at any monthly economic report and see where and how much mining activity is happening and adapt to where isn't being mined out.

The good players would adapt to being a mobile strip mining fleet. The risk vs reward would drastically improve for miners. This doesn't affect anomalies spawns and doesn't totally eliminate belts. The amount of Cached minerals currently would more then cover any bump in the market and there has been mention of moon mining also adding ABC ore to the mix.

This totally would be a win/win for the Economy. The amount of available minerals and produced items compared to destroyed has been sitting at a ratio of 4 to 1 for years. Mining could come to a screeching halt and it would be years before you would have issues reshipping. Give it some more thought and look over the data or just look for mined out belts.

This would be a good start to a healthy thriving economy.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Cade Windstalker
#5 - 2017-06-21 16:34:44 UTC
But that's not what you're talking about, you're talking about introducing actual mineral scarcity, which would by definition drive up prices.

If you reduce the amount of minerals in the game enough to actually create any kind of scarcity through what actually respawns in-game then you're going to create a massive practical shortage of minerals which would be bad for the game. The mineral market in Eve is generally fairly self-regulating based on supply and demand. When demand goes up more people are willing to mine so the supply stabilizes or mineral stores are dipped into to make up the difference on the market.

Also this wouldn't have the impact on miners that you seem to think it would. While yes the price of minerals would go up that would also translate into higher prices for anything made with minerals, which is most items in the game. That increase in prices would more or less cancel out any gains in buying power the miners might have made.

Case and point, look at the effect the Rorqual's had on the mineral market. While it's drastically increased the amount that a well skilled miner can mine in an hour it's also severely depressed the mineral market which has pushed down profits for everyone, with the worst impact falling on those without Rorquals since their mining rate hasn't changed but the amount they make per hour has.

Also I have no idea where you got that ratio but it's flatly incorrect. If you look at the last Monthly Economic Report and then look at the economy *before* Rorquals you'll see that the value of destroyed assets has actually generally sat *above* the value mined with very few exceptions outside of the last few months since the Rorqual was changed. The reason the Produced line sits so much higher is because that's the value of the end-products which involve a significant multiplier for T2 and Faction goods compared to the base mineral value used to make them.

The Eve economy *is* healthy and thriving, by any economic metric you care to name, barring the current over-supply of minerals, but that's due to the Rorqual and doesn't require a massive constriction of mining respawn rates to be fixed. Introducing more mineral scarcity into the world as a whole would be bad for the economy and would constrict both economic and PvP activity, which would be bad for the game as a whole.
Cindy the Sewer
Radiation Sickness
#6 - 2017-06-21 19:09:44 UTC
Axure Abbacus wrote:
Eve currently has a system where fighting over resources only happens at moons. All other materials are in infinite supply. In order to dry up the mineral market and drive conflict I propose drastically scaling back mining belt regeneration during downtime. Have Belts fully reset once a week on Sunday morning. The rest of the week only regenerate 10% of full value of belts.


Horrible idea.

The pew, pew crowd seem obsessed with the idea that everyone playing EVE wants to pvp or should pvp and if we make the game that way we will lose playerbase because the first is a very poor assumption and the second reduces the different styles of game play that people can choose from making everything you do in eve more and more alike until you basically are left with different names for ships but they result in nearly identical game play, which will make the game redundant and stale.

Also, setting things to benefit specific time zones is just about the worst idea possible (although i must admit even CCP doesnt seem to realize this sometimes).

p.s. will a forum moderate please make a trash can for all these, 'making mining better suggestions' and dump them all there so they don't clutter up the forums.

Searing destruction of your viewpoint is incoming and no you won't win the discussion or even walk away with anything resembling a win, so bail out early or suffer repeated embarrassments. You have been warned.

Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#7 - 2017-06-21 23:20:07 UTC
Yes Cade, it the Title of the thread.

It would just physiological in most ways as the amount of mined minerals is a fraction of what is in any region. With a better understanding of the metrics maybe 10% of standing value is too low or too high. Additional sources of minerals are constantly available and reducing the belt size just shifts things around.

It would scale down the belt mineral supply to a multiple of the averaged mining minerals. Full re-spawns can be throttled as needed. Overall m3 in belts can be altered like how it is handled in Null. Low security space belts are irrelevant anyway. Either way ccp will be changing belts at some point.

CCP has been working on scaling back mineral supply for years. It hasn't harmed the eve economy so far only made it evolve. Additional cases I am looking are the Rogue drone alloy removal, the reduction of gun mining, reprocessing rewrite all decreased the available minerals in eve. Additionally the changes to Ice belts altered the availability of ice products.

Additionally increasing a level of foraging is healthy in any environment. It is why it is used in zoos to maintain the exhibits mental capacity and why trough feeding is widely used in cattle production. I will leave everyone to make the connections for themselves.

I will take another look at the data. I could be incorrect and letting peoples wine threads overshadow the data. Eve is dying tl/dr.

These forums will self destruct in 90 days so for starters, so Sever- welcome to eve or not if you've been here forever. If you showed up to eve just for the mining then, yeah...god bless your heart, your simple-simple heart.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#8 - 2017-06-22 00:10:43 UTC
Main reason your idea is terrible.
It gives too much advantage to specific days of the week.

Also, fact check.
The Drone alloy removal was part of gun mining, with CCP wanting to put the emphasis on miners producing minerals, not ratters producing their own minerals. it was nothing to do with reducing mineral supply.
Reprocessing change actually INCREASED the minerals you got if you had full skills and a proper facility.

In short, learn the actual reasons why stuff happened and the impact they actually had, before talking out your ass.
Piugattuk
Saiyans United
Death from Above..
#9 - 2017-06-22 00:29:39 UTC
Axure Abbacus wrote:
Eve currently has a system where fighting over resources only happens at moons. All other materials are in infinite supply. In order to dry up the mineral market and drive conflict I propose drastically scaling back mining belt regeneration during downtime. Have Belts fully reset once a week on Sunday morning. The rest of the week only regenerate 10% of full value of belts.



As an Indy player this is absolutely an abominable ideal, if I could not get the materials I needed for my builds and the cost was too astronomical for the stuff I would not build anything, in fact, I'd quit EVE because building is my main game play, next comes PVE, if I had to choose between extreme prices or extreme reduction in minerals I'd walk.

Sure if minerals cost more than the ship I'd sell would cost that much more...except just like Zimbabwe currency, my 100 trillion dollars of Zimbabwe currency is pretty worthless when its inflated so badly because I still couldn't buy diddly-squat with it.
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#10 - 2017-06-22 00:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Axure Abbacus
Its cool. There's a difference between fact checking and being there. I enjoyed Drone alloys as well as mining. Future changes will be enjoyable. So here is to my ass.

Many changes DID reduce the amount of minerals available on the market I know that cause I dealt with it. My first Battleship hull cost under 90 mil. Older character remember when they cost 5 times that much and were rare. Its all perspective.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#11 - 2017-06-22 01:05:32 UTC
And back then you got Tritanium from shuttle reprocessing which put a hard cap on Trit on the market.
And mineral requirements to build the BS were less, having been dramatically changed in the ship tiericide as one particular instance.

So yes, you have no idea about the mineral market.
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#12 - 2017-06-22 01:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Axure Abbacus
Thanks k you for your time. It's moments like this that makes Eve enjoyable.

Again. I will take another look at the data. I could be incorrect and letting peoples wine threads overshadow the data. Eve is dying tl/dr.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Cade Windstalker
#13 - 2017-06-22 14:50:35 UTC
Axure Abbacus wrote:
Yes Cade, it the Title of the thread.

It would just physiological in most ways as the amount of mined minerals is a fraction of what is in any region. With a better understanding of the metrics maybe 10% of standing value is too low or too high. Additional sources of minerals are constantly available and reducing the belt size just shifts things around.

It would scale down the belt mineral supply to a multiple of the averaged mining minerals. Full re-spawns can be throttled as needed. Overall m3 in belts can be altered like how it is handled in Null. Low security space belts are irrelevant anyway. Either way ccp will be changing belts at some point.


The assumption that CCP will be changing how belts work at some point is erroneous at the least. There's been zero indication of this, and at this point in Null belts aren't even the main source of minerals, Ore Anoms are. Belts simply respawn too slowly and this has been the case for years.

Axure Abbacus wrote:
CCP has been working on scaling back mineral supply for years. It hasn't harmed the eve economy so far only made it evolve. Additional cases I am looking are the Rogue drone alloy removal, the reduction of gun mining, reprocessing rewrite all decreased the available minerals in eve. Additionally the changes to Ice belts altered the availability of ice products.


This is the exact opposite of correct. The mineral supply now compared to six or seven years ago is actually much more abundant. CCP have buffed the yield on mining ships several times, introduced the Rorqual, and changed the focus of ore collection from relatively sparse belts to much more available anomalies. In fact the recent nerfs are the first time CCP has done anything to scale back mineral production in the game, at least through mining, in quite a long time and that's only in response to another of their own changes, the rework of the Rorqual.

Rogue Drone Alloys and other forms of 'gun mining' have long since been more than balanced out by buffs to mining ships, rebalances of ore refine yields, and the current development and ore anomaly system. On top of that none of those was ever a huge factor on the mineral market, they just applied enough pressure to push prices down somewhat, especially on higher end minerals in the case of drone-goo.

Removing them didn't create any sort of scarcity, it just pushed more of the production of minerals onto actual miners.

Axure Abbacus wrote:
Additionally increasing a level of foraging is healthy in any environment. It is why it is used in zoos to maintain the exhibits mental capacity and why trough feeding is widely used in cattle production. I will leave everyone to make the connections for themselves.

I will take another look at the data. I could be incorrect and letting peoples wine threads overshadow the data. Eve is dying tl/dr.

These forums will self destruct in 90 days so for starters, so Sever- welcome to eve or not if you've been here forever. If you showed up to eve just for the mining then, yeah...god bless your heart, your simple-simple heart.


That line about feeding troughs and foraging is nonsense and doesn't remotely make sense as a metaphor. First off, moving around in Eve, especially over long distances, is mind numbingly boring. Plus Eve, especially in Null, is about building up and developing space, and CCP have been pushing for years for people to make more use of the space they have rather than spreading out and trying to claim wide swaths of territory. This would be a push in the opposite direction from the one that the game has been going in for literally years.
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#14 - 2017-06-22 15:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Axure Abbacus
My main has 91,719,863 skill points and generates 1,448.71 skill points an hour. He is skilled for industry and up to capital pvp. With skill extractors, I can burn him down to a 10 million skill point Orca character and generate 8 Mackinaw exhumer toons mining 577.6k m3/ an hour and remap all characters for Skill point farming.

I then use all those minerals and farmed Skill points to create a 9 man Rorqual Fleet that generates 8,019k M3/ an hour while farming skill points and add a cyno alt that is also remapped for skill point farming. Isk and Minerals are irrelevant at that point. Delve produced 6.7 T worth of minerals with some approach like this I would guess. Typical mining for other regions is around 1T isk but that would easily spike with this gameplay.

When I first started playing was right before the Dominion release, the Mineral Price index was at a record low of 60 and Primary and Secondary Price market indexes were 80. The price for Trit was around 3.3 to 4.5 isk a unit. I have watched it rise ever since. I played a Gallente industry toon non-botting living in Lonetrek when botting was rampant. It was one of the deciding factors why I left Caldari space for Syndicate.

Make mining to break the game take some effort again. The Ice Harvesting changes from Odyssey is a good approach that could be taken with Ore.
-Reduce belt yield by 77%
-Increase chance of Ore Anomalies by 33%
-Increase chance of {Shattered} C1-C2 Worm holes by 33%

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#15 - 2017-06-22 16:20:42 UTC
I am always happy to be wrong and Eve is always a great place to be wrong. When I first logged on in the Eve timeline does skew my perception of things and I accept that. So whats to the new normal for eve Industry?

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Cade Windstalker
#16 - 2017-06-22 16:50:20 UTC
Axure Abbacus wrote:
My main has 91,719,863 skill points and generates 1,448.71 skill points an hour. He is skilled for industry and up to capital pvp. With skill extractors, I can burn him down to a 10 million skill point Orca character and generate 8 Mackinaw exhumer toons mining 577.6k m3/ an hour and remap all characters for Skill point farming.

I then use all those minerals and farmed Skill points to create a 9 man Rorqual Fleet that generates 8,019k M3/ an hour while farming skill points and add a cyno alt that is also remapped for skill point farming. Isk and Minerals are irrelevant at that point. Delve produced 6.7 T worth of minerals with some approach like this I would guess. Typical mining for other regions is around 1T isk but that would easily spike with this gameplay.


First things first, your SP doesn't matter. My alt has more SP than your main and that doesn't matter.

Stripping down a character like that and then mining and SP-farming to build Rorqual characters would be hilariously inefficient in terms of time and would take you months to even get the first pilot into a Rorqual.

Delve produced 6.7T in minerals last month because they have a bunch of high end industrialists who simply bought or injected a bunch of Rorqual characters, many of whom have been mining 12-18 hours a day for months. To put it bluntly your method is inefficient compared to the way they've done things because they had the capital to simply buy up thousands of Skill Injectors and build dozens of Rorqual miners in a matter of days.

Axure Abbacus wrote:
When I first started playing was right before the Dominion release, the Mineral Price index was at a record low of 60 and Primary and Secondary Price market indexes were 80. The price for Trit was around 3.3 to 4.5 isk a unit. I have watched it rise ever since. I played a Gallente industry toon non-botting living in Lonetrek when botting was rampant. It was one of the deciding factors why I left Caldari space for Syndicate.


I'm honestly not sure what your point here is. The main things impacting the price of minerals has always been inflation combined with demand. A large chunk of the reason for the rise in the price of minerals over the last 10 years has been the slow increase in the liquid ISK supply in the game.

You probably aren't aware since it was a bit before your time but Shuttles used to be sold for 5k ISK by NPCs. Then the price of Trit got high enough that it was profitable to buy up those shuttles en-mass, reprocess them, and sell the Trit for profit. The price of minerals has been going up more or less continuously since then, and really even before then.

Axure Abbacus wrote:
Make mining to break the game take some effort again. The Ice Harvesting changes from Odyssey is a good approach that could be taken with Ore.
-Reduce belt yield by 77%
-Increase chance of Ore Anomalies by 33%
-Increase chance of Shattered worm holes by 33%


I really have no idea what you think this is going to do.

The vast majority of that 6.7t in mining down in Delve is done in Anomalies. They're more stable, more lucrative, and easy to farm compared to belts. That's why CCP is nerfing their respawn times so that 40-man Rorqual fleets can't just bounce from Colossal to Colossal all day every half hour.

Also "chance of shattered wormholes" doesn't make sense as a concept. There is a fixed and static number of Shattered Wormhole systems in the game, there is no "chance of shattered wormhole" parameter anywhere.

Axure Abbacus wrote:
I am always happy to be wrong and Eve is always a great place to be wrong. When I first logged on in the Eve timeline does skew my perception of things and I accept that. So whats to the new normal for eve Industry?


I am thinking, based on the above, that you have some kind of assumptions about the mineral economy in Eve and how it works that are massively incorrect, but unless you explain it better I'm really at a loss to where the disconnect is here. Just the fact that you're suggesting *increasing* Anom spawns would somehow generate scarcity suggests you have no idea how Sov Null mining operations work, but I'm not really sure what information you're missing here.
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#17 - 2017-06-22 18:51:50 UTC
I expected as much but didn't want to be one of those "post with your main" type guys. I didn't fully research shattered worm holes, totally admit that. I periodically started logging off in 2012 when I went back to start my undergrads in mechanical design and am down to my last three classes. My life is kinda blurry sometimes.

So when i first started, everything was cheep as dirt compared to the current markets. There were the Korean bot fleet and the Russian bot fleet, Gun mining but it was it was. CCP would make a big deal and punt a few while making a big stink to keep people happy. When my friends in hi sec caved to inflation and starting botting I was totally like f that and x'd up in syndicate for pvp.

The industry buffs haven't done anything about the Inflation. In some ways i get it, we've gotten older and plexing is so much easier once you break 20$ an hour. Incursions are awesome. The quarterly reports use to be great help but the monthly reports not so much. I log back and have some fun but never see much improvement in the economy. There is always a new normal and i roll with it. The markets have hit a happy spot. I keep seeing the liquid isk hockey stick and being surprised that it hasn't been fixed.

Its the new normal and it's cool but i find keep finding myself siding with goonswarm when they tea bag eve. I was disappointed when all the PVP guys got their jump freighter's reimbursed when Tornado's first came out. It seems like there is no solution to inflation and when massive destruction happens still nothing budges. So its like I guess you could tactically nuke minerals for a bit to induce hyper-inflation or drastically increase ore spawns to the point where Isk is meaningless. Which bot program does 5-o recommend these days? Skill point farming is kinda ridiculous but at-least they "just" dropped ghost training.

In the end I keep looking the what the Healthy Economy is in eve today and ended up on the Forums. What i find is still biased by the conflicting individual players perceptions of Eve which leads me back to the question of "Why aren't I bot mining a fleet of Rorquals out with Goonswarm already?"

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Cade Windstalker
#18 - 2017-06-22 20:01:17 UTC
Yes, back when you started things were a lot cheaper, but back then it was also a lot harder to get ISK so prices were forced lower by the reduced money supply. Back around 2010 60m an hour in raw ISK was considered good income for the average player, these days you can pull that off with an account that's 3-4 months old. Less if you're clever.

I also think you're overestimating the prevalence of bots in Eve. Yes they're a thing, they'll always be a thing to some extent, but the percentage is actually pretty small and CCP go through and ban them and all associated accounts every so often which keeps the problem in check. Also inflation isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's all about balance in the economy and the earnings capacity of various groups in relation to each other. The economy was arguably less healthy back in 2010 when PLEX was 400m each and hard to afford than now when it's 1.3b for a month's worth but it's really easy to even PLEX multiple accounts off of one character's Incursion or Carrier Ratting activity.

Regarding ISK, the number you want to be watching is the money supply, not the faucets and sinks. Don't get me wrong, Carrier Ratting is a problem, but the scale of the graph is deceptive. As to why it hasn't been fixed, that's because it's hard to fix it without hurting a lot of players who have little or nothing to do with that spike in raw ISK input, and CCP's recent attempts at point-nerfs have been less than spectacularly received if you haven't noticed.

Destruction of ships has no effect on inflation. Inflation is driven by ISK sinks and faucets, removing ships from the game doesn't actually destroy ISK just minerals.

Also Ghost Training was a relatively recent problem, the reason it's gotten so much attention is because a few people started up hundreds of accounts and made tons of ISK off it.



In short, seriously none of this is as big of an issue as you seem to think it is. The Eve Economy is, overall, relatively healthy. Right now it's hit a bit of a rough patch because of a large influx of minerals and ISK due to Citadel balance changes, but both of these are relatively recent problems and haven't started to have a seriously negative impact yet outside of a few areas, and those will likely bounce back quickly once the problems are resolved.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#19 - 2017-06-22 22:06:04 UTC
Inflation isn't actually a major driver of the mineral market.
All the big moves in the mineral market have been directly related to a mineral consumption or production change. I.E. Tiericide of ships, Changes to Capitals, Citadels, Barge changes, Rorqual changes, changes to Null ore composition.

Mainly because EVE actually (till last month) hasn't had very much inflation, and mineral market trends have continued steady even when the isk supply has flipped into deflation, which says it's not the primary control on the market.
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#20 - 2017-06-23 00:13:51 UTC
Thank you guys both for helping me shake off some of the old eve baggage. Eve has always been a Layer cake depending on your grasp of things. I've done well over the years despite not being all in. Eve's always felt like it was going tin two separate directions.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

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