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Strategic Cruiser Focus Group Working Thread

First post
Author
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#341 - 2017-06-21 20:24:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dior Ambraelle wrote:

It's not fun to argue with you if all you're doing is keep repeating the same thing over and over again, while ignoring all options and possibilities that would change these ships.


I have to keep on repeating myself because you are ignoring fundamental parts of ship balance. Namely a generalist ship cannot be the best at any given task.



If you have to keep repeating yourself then one side or the other is wrong, since you're having everyone else in the thread come against you perhaps you should take a different look at your line of discussion. (That's as far down as I can tone this, would rather use much stronger language/points but don't want a forum ban.)

I also challenge you to find a fully bonused T1 or T2 exploration cruiser (or larger!), faction and T3 will not count for you. The fact that there isn't one has been a glaring hole in the ship lineup for at least a decade. Therefore generalist does not apply to exploration.

I would be fine with requiring HAC/Recon/Logi/Command ships as prereqs for training the strategic cruiser skills, makes no difference really. No matter the training bar people will do it anyway.

The point though:

Unchain exploration from cloak or buff the tank on the cloak subs to be on par for doing exploration regardless of cloak consideration.

This is not a generalist ship class, it's a swiss army knife.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#342 - 2017-06-21 20:34:36 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:



If you have to keep repeating yourself then one side or the other is wrong, since you're having everyone else in the thread come against you perhaps you should take a different look at your line of discussion. (That's as far down as I can tone this, would rather use much stronger language/points but don't want a forum ban.)


Its more like a bunch of people don't want their overpowered toy nerfed.

Mhari Dson wrote:

I also challenge you to find a fully bonused T1 or T2 exploration cruiser (or larger!), faction and T3 will not count for you. The fact that there isn't one has been a glaring hole in the ship lineup for at least a decade. Therefore generalist does not apply to exploration.


They very much do apply as these ships have more uses outside of exploration. If you want a dedicated t2 cruiser for exploration then ask for one.

Mhari Dson wrote:

I would be fine with requiring HAC/Recon/Logi/Command ships as prereqs for training the strategic cruiser skills, makes no difference really. No matter the training bar people will do it anyway.

The point though:

Unchain exploration from cloak or buff the tank on the cloak subs to be on par for doing exploration regardless of cloak consideration.

This is not a generalist ship class, it's a swiss army knife.


Swiss army knife is a generalist, it does everything but not as well as something dedicated. You cant have more tank on the cloaky T3C because that renders the recons obsolete.
JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#343 - 2017-06-21 20:55:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
JC Mieyli wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Or we can fix the 4 ships that have been causing problems or outright invalidating some 60+ other ships for years.

maybe they used to years ago but not anymore
meta changed a lot since those days


Yea, its dominated by a handful of overpowered ships, this change goes a long way to fixing that.

by removing even more ships from the meta and making the handful of ships worth flying even smaller
id prefer to see things go the other way
with more ships being viable rather than less
that isnt power creep
its equalization
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#344 - 2017-06-21 21:01:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They very much do apply as these ships have more uses outside of exploration. If you want a dedicated t2 cruiser for exploration then ask for one.

we already have dedicated faction cruiser that won't do superior sleeper site. You don't get one thing. It's reverse case carriers+anomalys. Carriers were buffed so players started to farm anomalies with them. CCP didn't predict that. Now they nerfed hulls via pve (sic!). Now it will be reverse. T3C will be nerfed and there is no hull that can replace them in content they are currently usable. If you think they will suddenly magically conjure T2 exploration hulls then you are wrong. Explorers asking for changing data sites content for years. ZERO response from CCP. Stale, unecessary sites, you may delete it, nobody will notice.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#345 - 2017-06-21 21:01:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mhari Dson wrote:



If you have to keep repeating yourself then one side or the other is wrong, since you're having everyone else in the thread come against you perhaps you should take a different look at your line of discussion. (That's as far down as I can tone this, would rather use much stronger language/points but don't want a forum ban.)


Its more like a bunch of people don't want their overpowered toy nerfed.

Mhari Dson wrote:

I also challenge you to find a fully bonused T1 or T2 exploration cruiser (or larger!), faction and T3 will not count for you. The fact that there isn't one has been a glaring hole in the ship lineup for at least a decade. Therefore generalist does not apply to exploration.


They very much do apply as these ships have more uses outside of exploration. If you want a dedicated t2 cruiser for exploration then ask for one.

Mhari Dson wrote:

I would be fine with requiring HAC/Recon/Logi/Command ships as prereqs for training the strategic cruiser skills, makes no difference really. No matter the training bar people will do it anyway.

The point though:

Unchain exploration from cloak or buff the tank on the cloak subs to be on par for doing exploration regardless of cloak consideration.

This is not a generalist ship class, it's a swiss army knife.


Swiss army knife is a generalist, it does everything but not as well as something dedicated. You cant have more tank on the cloaky T3C because that renders the recons obsolete.



We asked for T1/2 exploration ships six years ago but the devs devoted their time to whining nullbears, us explorers can't even get a typo corrected in less than FIVE YEARS.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2017-06-21 21:56:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
You cant have more tank on the cloaky T3C because that renders the recons obsolete.

This is an interesting point.
Recons are e-war ships (for some reason) so making the cloak subsystem more tanky won't necessarily affect recons if the e-war subsystem is weaker. Unless you only use your recon ship to "recon" this is unlikely to happen.
To be honest I never understood why do we have two almost redundant ships in a group called recon ships, while they barely have any bonuses that makes them worth of the name.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#347 - 2017-06-21 22:05:58 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They very much do apply as these ships have more uses outside of exploration. If you want a dedicated t2 cruiser for exploration then ask for one.

we already have dedicated faction cruiser that won't do superior sleeper site. You don't get one thing. It's reverse case carriers+anomalys. Carriers were buffed so players started to farm anomalies with them. CCP didn't predict that. Now they nerfed hulls via pve (sic!). Now it will be reverse. T3C will be nerfed and there is no hull that can replace them in content they are currently usable. If you think they will suddenly magically conjure T2 exploration hulls then you are wrong. Explorers asking for changing data sites content for years. ZERO response from CCP. Stale, unecessary sites, you may delete it, nobody will notice.


Actually I imagine we will go back to people not running these things in a solo cruiser.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#348 - 2017-06-21 22:06:57 UTC
JC Mieyli wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
JC Mieyli wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Or we can fix the 4 ships that have been causing problems or outright invalidating some 60+ other ships for years.

maybe they used to years ago but not anymore
meta changed a lot since those days


Yea, its dominated by a handful of overpowered ships, this change goes a long way to fixing that.

by removing even more ships from the meta and making the handful of ships worth flying even smaller
id prefer to see things go the other way
with more ships being viable rather than less
that isnt power creep
its equalization


Buffing some 60+ ships to deal with 4 overpowered ships is very much power creep on a massive scale.
BESTER bm
Doomheim
#349 - 2017-06-21 22:15:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Your easy ride is over, this content is going back to being difficult and hopefully that also means the supply of the high end gear out of these sites become more rare. You are going to have to adapt, just like everyone else that has had their golden goose nerfed.


Dude, you do not even know what you are talking about and quite clearly have never seen nor run any of these sites. At this point you are merely a cracked record spouting the same nonsense as you really have no argument here. CCP is about to kill off high en exploration as the only ship they have that will be able to run these sites will be nerfed to he point where it can't.

Whether you like it or not, whether you agree or not, whether it was intended or not, the T3C and especially the Tengu has become the Specialist Explo Cruiser. In part due to the salt and tears from gankers and campers unable to counter the ship (and not because it can't be done, just because they are not smart enough) and seeing the potential of picking up freebees off of other peoples work slip thorough their fingers time and time again.

Fortunately there's alternatives on the horizon in the form of different MMO options.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#350 - 2017-06-21 22:16:00 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You cant have more tank on the cloaky T3C because that renders the recons obsolete.

This is an interesting point.
Recons are e-war ships (for some reason) so making the cloak subsystem more tanky won't necessarily affect recons if the e-war subsystem is weaker. Unless you only use your recon ship to "recon" this is unlikely to happen.
To be honest I never understood why do we have two almost redundant ships in a group called recon ships, while they barely have any bonuses that makes them worth of the name.


If the T3C can fit a bigger tank while sporting cov ops and nullification then the recon lineup is rendered obsolete.
BESTER bm
Doomheim
#351 - 2017-06-21 22:20:21 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
I guess superior sites scaled to be done in BS hull. Guess what, nobody will do exploration in BS hull because they are non mobile after warp changes, and mobility is the number one for any explorer.


Besides a BS hull not offering any extra support/protection in a Superior Sleeper, they indeed are simply to slow and lack the agility needed to run these sites. There is also no exploration bonus for BS.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#352 - 2017-06-21 22:22:24 UTC
BESTER bm wrote:


Dude, you do not even know what you are talking about and quite clearly have never seen nor run any of these sites. At this point you are merely a cracked record spouting the same nonsense as you really have no argument here. CCP is about to kill off high en exploration as the only ship they have that will be able to run these sites will be nerfed to he point where it can't.


You mean the only ship than can run these sites virtually risk and effort free. Plenty of other ships can run them, it just requires more effort and means you cant nullify you way past anyone in the way as easily.

BESTER bm wrote:

Whether you like it or not, whether you agree or not, whether it was intended or not, the T3C and especially the Tengu has become the Specialist Explo Cruiser. In part due to the salt and tears from gankers and campers unable to counter the ship (and not because it can't be done, just because they are not smart enough) and seeing the potential of picking up freebees off of other peoples work slip thorough their fingers time and time again.

Fortunately there's alternatives on the horizon in the form of different MMO options.


We did high end exploration before overpowered uncatchable nullified cov ops cruisers, people will continue to do them after the T3C gets nerfed into place.
BESTER bm
Doomheim
#353 - 2017-06-21 22:30:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Actually I imagine we will go back to people not running these things in a solo cruiser.


That is what will likely happen yes. While I can fit and use a Tengu to run these sites with acceptable risk, where the risk mostly consists of me being careless or greedy, Fitting any available exploration ship to have a chance will become a huge risk even in case of getting unlucky on a hack and triggering a defense. Let alone I will no longer have the option to use the site defense to actually protect myself.

Stratios is not even close to being able to run these sites and will need to leave at the first sign of an unlucky turn or mishap.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#354 - 2017-06-21 22:45:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Dior Ambraelle
BESTER bm wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
I guess superior sites scaled to be done in BS hull. Guess what, nobody will do exploration in BS hull because they are non mobile after warp changes, and mobility is the number one for any explorer.


Besides a BS hull not offering any extra support/protection in a Superior Sleeper, they indeed are simply to slow and lack the agility needed to run these sites. There is also no exploration bonus for BS.

Well, we have the Nestor, but I wouldn't really use it for exploration, even if it's somewhat more agile than the average battleships. The lack of cloak bonus is really painful on that ship. Even if we don't get cov-ops cloak, can't we get a "no speed and scan resolution reduction" bonus at least, instead of the barely useful remote rep?

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#355 - 2017-06-21 23:03:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mhari Dson
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
BESTER bm wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
I guess superior sites scaled to be done in BS hull. Guess what, nobody will do exploration in BS hull because they are non mobile after warp changes, and mobility is the number one for any explorer.


Besides a BS hull not offering any extra support/protection in a Superior Sleeper, they indeed are simply to slow and lack the agility needed to run these sites. There is also no exploration bonus for BS.

Well, we have the Nestor, but I wouldn't really use it for exploration, even if it's somewhat more agile than the average battleships. The lack of cloak bonus is really painful on that ship. Even if we don't get cov-ops cloak, can't we get a "no speed and scan resolution reduction" bonus at least, instead of the barely useful remote rep?


I tried to find a use for the Nestor, really I did, it's just a hangar decoration I need to get rid of.

EDIT: well I guess it could do a greater cache if it had a bastion unit and didn't get immobilized by using it (disallow warp/jump/microjump but not move/AB/MWD) but that's another issue and not in scope of what we're looking at.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#356 - 2017-06-21 23:58:59 UTC
When it comes down to it this is what I expect of a good exploration ship:

1-2 utility highs (probes, salvager optional)
3 utility mids (relic/data/cargo scanner)
400-450 applied dps (HAM/HML apply so poorly the sheet dps for this is over 700)
500dps worth of tank spread across 3 resists
Can take two 70K damage pulses in a short time and expect to survive
550m/s under AB, 1200m/s under mwd

last one is a complaint....

Be able to put a legion through the same acceleration gate I can stuff a *&%%ing vulture.

and that's just hisec.
BESTER bm
Doomheim
#357 - 2017-06-22 01:11:15 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:
When it comes down to it this is what I expect of a good exploration ship:
1-2 utility highs (probes, salvager optional)
3 utility mids (relic/data/cargo scanner)
400-450 applied dps (HAM/HML apply so poorly the sheet dps for this is over 700)
500dps worth of tank spread across 3 resists
Can take two 70K damage pulses in a short time and expect to survive
550m/s under AB, 1200m/s under mwd


Off Topic yes, but;
Cargo scanners are a crutch.. knowing you just got unlucky on a 60M can as it blows is not worth it..
Separate Data/Relic is so last decade, we use Zeugma now.. :P ..
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#358 - 2017-06-22 01:26:34 UTC
BESTER bm wrote:
Mhari Dson wrote:
When it comes down to it this is what I expect of a good exploration ship:
1-2 utility highs (probes, salvager optional)
3 utility mids (relic/data/cargo scanner)
400-450 applied dps (HAM/HML apply so poorly the sheet dps for this is over 700)
500dps worth of tank spread across 3 resists
Can take two 70K damage pulses in a short time and expect to survive
550m/s under AB, 1200m/s under mwd


Off Topic yes, but;
Cargo scanners are a crutch.. knowing you just got unlucky on a 60M can as it blows is not worth it..
Separate Data/Relic is so last decade, we use Zeugma now.. :P ..


sleeper sites need the virus strength and coherence, Zeugma isn't worth the price.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#359 - 2017-06-22 01:27:04 UTC
BESTER bm wrote:
Separate Data/Relic is so last decade, we use Zeugma now.. :P ..

Combo scanners only had one utility slot the last time I checked, yellow and red hacks often need more.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#360 - 2017-06-22 03:27:08 UTC
FYI SISI is up with the stats loaded in, the launcher can't seem to tell if it's there. Attempting login does work.

And Thanks CCP Fozzie for getting that up for us, hope it didn't cut into your weekend too much.