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Kinetic missile bonus on Caldari ships, the elephant in the room...
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Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2012-01-24 07:22:09 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Being able to drop 20% of your DPS to switch damage types is an advantage most other races don't have. Be thankful you have it.


This.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#62 - 2012-01-24 08:13:07 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
The kinetic bonus is there because lasers and hybrids, and therefore Gallente gunboats and Amarr gunboats are limited in damage type.


Gallente have drone boats if you want full damage type selection. Amarr have some drone boats (and even their gunboats have generous drone bays) and some missile boats for full damage type selection


Each racial drone has a different damage multiplier. ie as soon as you change from gallente thermal drones, you lose damage. ie exactly the same thing the OP was complaining about. Its also half type selectability, because a proper dominix setup makes a LOT of rail dps.

Never mind that bouncers track terribly, have an optimal typically beyond drone control range (wasted stat) and a bouncer/zerker combo, loses the benefit of the sentry rigs the moment the bouncers are bayed, and suffers the usual traveltimes once the zerkers are fielded. In a dominix that typically has me using bouncer/garde combos for angels, and spending half of a mission shooting thermal from my drones.
Galerak
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-01-24 09:13:28 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Galerak wrote:
With all lvl 5 skills a drake w/ 7 HML2s and 3 bcs t2 the drake does not even break 450dps w/ the t2 high dmg kinetic missiles. 444.55 dps to be exact. Now you gotta remember that while yes that is at a great range (75k) you ONLY get that damage output against a BS or larger unless it is also webbed and tp'd. And who is going to be webbed at 60k or farther? So even if 444.5 dps was on par dps for a bc the actual dmg output is even lower unless the target is larger or not moving.

While it may not be a fair comparison being a t3 (although it is still a cruiser not a battlecruiser), a tengu w/ 3 bcs t2 and 6 HML2s does 621dps w/ the same ammo. This is why you see so many tengus in small gang/solo pvp because it actually has the dps to compete 1v1 vs other races.


It's not, so don't be dense about it. Compare similar ship classes.

Compare the Drake to the Cane or the Harbi. All commonly flown shield.

Drake (Fit I just tossed together), 73k EHP, 398dps with faction, 445 with Fury. Range 73km. Point and TP

Cane, 48k EHP, 596 dps RF Fusion (~16km range, but falloff eats a fair bit of damage), 475 dps Barrage (~27km range, again falloff)

Harbi, 40k EHP, 601dps Navy Multi (~10km range, lasers no likey falloff), 479 dps Scorch (~26km).

Drake gives up a piddling little bit of DPS to TRIPLE its engagement range (you *Do* have intys and long tackle to use that range, right?), while sporting half again as much tank.

By the way, A HAM Drake gets 553 DPS rage, 497 faction @ around 16km. It also has ~66k EHP. Hey, isn't 16km roughly the range of a cane with Fusion?


Ok take that HAM Drake and change to Hellfire or Torrent ammo. And then reduce that dps by however much dps you think a cane loses at 16k due to falloff. That number would be close to our dps against a BC in motion without a TP or web. Somebody said earlier that caldari ships seem to have 1 too few mid slots and 1 too many lows. Try doing something like your HAM drake fit with a Cerb and compare to the other Hacs and tell me what the tank looks like. Now as i've said the drake being overtanked makes up for its lack of dps in most situations, but not every Caldari missile boat is as over tanked for it's class as the drake is.
Galerak
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-01-24 10:16:11 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


Lets examine the underlined quote by taking a look at some common fits and the fits from several of my latest kills. Lets also consider having a 25% kinetic damage bonus and whether or not you should be using Kinetic missiles.

EHP from common fits:
- Drake: 67k EM / 76k Thm / 92k Kin / 105k Exp (Use EM damage)
- Nanocane: 49k EM / 48k Thm / 54k Kin / 60k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Plate Cane: 102k EM / 71k Thm / 66k Kin / 61k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Nano Binger: 44k EM / 44k Thm / 50k Kin / 56k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Plate Binge: 89k EM / 74k Thm / 69k Kin / 68k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Vagabond: 64k EM / 35k Thm / 23k Kin / 26k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Abaddon: 164k EM / 137k Thm / 128k Kin / 126k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Maelstrom: 76k EM / 66k Thm / 73k Kin / 78k Exp (Use Kin damage)

Here's the EHP from my last several kills:
- Vengeance: 6944 / 8128 / 10569 / 19937 (EM)
- Keres: 3889 / 4245 / 6265 / 3807 (EM)
- Tornado: 36599 / 32127 / 39529 / 45299 (Kin)
- Brutix: 86332 / 72613 / 74938 / 62804 (Kin)
- Sacrilege: 45075 / 84244 / 62322 / 115721 (Kin)
- Hurricane: 44843 / 42369 / 47880 / 51888 (Kin)
- Moa: 35594 / 31873 / 38778 / 44625 (Kin)
- Caracal: 13147 / 9782 / 11051 / 12284 (Kin)
- Taranis: 3992 / 3795 / 4322 / 3846 (Kin)
- Megathron: 153882 / 128045 / 131742 / 133635 (Kin)

Its most certainly possible to get a wider selection of fits but I'm pretty sure you're going to see a similar layout - maybe 5% of fights should use EM, 5% use Exp, and 90% use Kin.

-Liang

Ed: It occurs to me that you may not have trained BC5. In which case you should just be quiet. :)


Well my experience in actual combat has been quite different and of all my various saved fits i have found only 7 where Kinetic was in the bottom half of the resist table. However I will try flying a drake around for a while and see how well it works out. Or perhaps just load terror in the cerb more often. I'm willing to give it a try and see if I reach comparable results.
mecubed
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2012-01-24 16:23:04 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Is the drake, with its current kinetic missile bonus, UNDERPOWERED?


As far as its offensive capabilities go? Definitely.

Cambarus wrote:
How about the tengu? Deciding you don't like a certain type of bonus and demanding it be changed on all caldari ships is a TERRIBLE way to go about looking for balance. The drake in its current form is already overpowered, as is the tengu,


Neither of the two ships is overpowered in the offensive section.

The drake can only be called overpowered because it combines a ridiculously low shield recharge time (half that of Caldari battleships) with a ridiculously high base shield capacity (three times that of Caldari cruisers, and almost as much as Caldari battleships), with a signature that's still well below that of a battleship (so it's not as vulnerable to large weapons).

The Tengu might be called "overpowered" because it has all the advantages of a Caldari ship (strong shield tank, long range, etc) while ditching most of the typical Caldari weaknesses (it's not a slowboat with a huge sig. Still lacks good drone capacity, though). Oh, and it finally has enough mid slots to actually fit stuff. (Most Caldari ships have one low slot too many and one mid slot too few.)

The shield recharge has exactly nothing to do with the drake being OP, and is irrelevant anyway, because the issue at hand is this:

If you swap the kinetic damage bonus with a ROF bonus on all caldari ships, the drake and tengu will become horrendously overpowered. That alone is a good reason not to change the bonus. As a general rule, if you ask the question "Why don't we buff all ships with bonus X by giving them a better bonus?" And the answer is "Because it will make one or more ships so terribly overpowered that nobody will fly anything else ever", it's pretty safe to say the buff was poorly thought out.

Tengu is already the best t3 by a fairly wide margin in a fairly wide range of situations (and is, IMO, in need of a nerf itself) and the drake is not only the best tier 2 BC (though it more or less shares that trait with the cane) but is so absurdly good at what it does that the damn thing singlehandedly changed 0.0 warfare. Even now drake gangs are quite common, because drakes are one of the best fleet ships in the game, despite being cheap and easy to skill for. The LAST thing they need is a massive boost.

TBH though I can tell you're a caldari fanboy, and it's kind of funny how you don't even seem to realize it. You literally said that the tengu is good because it has all the advantages of caldari ships with none of the downsides (which is BAD, not good, ships have drawbacks for a reason) while acting like this is a good reason why it should get a buff...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#66 - 2012-01-24 16:23:52 UTC
Galerak wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Galerak wrote:
With all lvl 5 skills a drake w/ 7 HML2s and 3 bcs t2 the drake does not even break 450dps w/ the t2 high dmg kinetic missiles. 444.55 dps to be exact. Now you gotta remember that while yes that is at a great range (75k) you ONLY get that damage output against a BS or larger unless it is also webbed and tp'd. And who is going to be webbed at 60k or farther? So even if 444.5 dps was on par dps for a bc the actual dmg output is even lower unless the target is larger or not moving.

While it may not be a fair comparison being a t3 (although it is still a cruiser not a battlecruiser), a tengu w/ 3 bcs t2 and 6 HML2s does 621dps w/ the same ammo. This is why you see so many tengus in small gang/solo pvp because it actually has the dps to compete 1v1 vs other races.


It's not, so don't be dense about it. Compare similar ship classes.

Compare the Drake to the Cane or the Harbi. All commonly flown shield.

Drake (Fit I just tossed together), 73k EHP, 398dps with faction, 445 with Fury. Range 73km. Point and TP

Cane, 48k EHP, 596 dps RF Fusion (~16km range, but falloff eats a fair bit of damage), 475 dps Barrage (~27km range, again falloff)

Harbi, 40k EHP, 601dps Navy Multi (~10km range, lasers no likey falloff), 479 dps Scorch (~26km).

Drake gives up a piddling little bit of DPS to TRIPLE its engagement range (you *Do* have intys and long tackle to use that range, right?), while sporting half again as much tank.

By the way, A HAM Drake gets 553 DPS rage, 497 faction @ around 16km. It also has ~66k EHP. Hey, isn't 16km roughly the range of a cane with Fusion?


Ok take that HAM Drake and change to Hellfire or Torrent ammo. And then reduce that dps by however much dps you think a cane loses at 16k due to falloff. That number would be close to our dps against a BC in motion without a TP or web. Somebody said earlier that caldari ships seem to have 1 too few mid slots and 1 too many lows. Try doing something like your HAM drake fit with a Cerb and compare to the other Hacs and tell me what the tank looks like. Now as i've said the drake being overtanked makes up for its lack of dps in most situations, but not every Caldari missile boat is as over tanked for it's class as the drake is.


1) HAM Drakes are terrible, since you're too slow. HAM Cerbs on the other hand, can be good cause they're nice and speedy.

2) That HAM Drake fit includes a Web.

3) You came in here crying about the Drake needing a boost, now you say it doesn't but, other missile ships do. Yeah the Cerb's mediocre, but every race has a bunch of mediocre ships. The Munnin, the Sac, Gallente Subcaps, the pre-buff retribution, etc.

4) If you think the Cerb needs a boost, the answer to that is to call for a boost to the Cerb, not cry about EVERY caldari ship with a Kin bonus.

The Cerb is a pretty good sniper with HMs, and a great glass cannon with HAMs. It's no Vaga or Zealot, but whaddyagunnado.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
mecubed
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-01-24 16:25:11 UTC
Shares with the cane, so 1 caldari ship you actually seen in mass on a fleet, compared to how many minnie ships?
So great caldari has 1 ship...Yet minnie pilots scream nerf because a cane cant insta **** it. CCP nerfs the one fleet caldari ship and still doesnt touch the cane, which is one of many minnie ships used in pvp.

The irony of this is under the lore of caldari supposedly being superior in tech, yet are beat by every other race, and the rest are beat by minnie.
Whats even more interesting in the ship usage numbers is seeing abaddons high on the list, yet, guess what they are using for guns? Arties........

T3's are too costly for huge fleets.. So screaming tengu, is a crap answer.


(From the quote i just did... forum acted up)
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-01-24 17:29:32 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Galerak wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Galerak wrote:

Actually yes. The raw dmg numbers on the drake using kinetic missiles are sub par vs other BCs however the drake has an overpowered tank, which more often than not balances it out. Even as a caldari pilot i hate the drake. I'm glad it's getting re-balanced even tho some people are calling the changes a nerf. The reason the drake is so common is because aside for the training intensive shield skills it takes very little time to get into one and it's easy to use. Even an undertrained shield tank can fly one adequately because the shield setup of the drake is quite overpowered on its own. So drake fleets were born, dozens of new characters with crap skills in a ship with low damage but a respectable tank have become the most comon and hated sight in the cosmos. I sneer at every drake I see the same as you guys, because having spent quite a bit of time in one myself I consider them to be the ship of choice for noobs and lazy pilots.


You are aware that the Drake actually has really respectable DPS when it has 3 BCUs on it right? You're also aware that it has far superior damage projection to every other BC?

-Liang


With all lvl 5 skills a drake w/ 7 HML2s and 3 bcs t2 the drake does not even break 450dps w/ the t2 high dmg kinetic missiles. 444.55 dps to be exact. Now you gotta remember that while yes that is at a great range (75k) you ONLY get that damage output against a BS or larger unless it is also webbed and tp'd. And who is going to be webbed at 60k or farther? So even if 444.5 dps was on par dps for a bc the actual dmg output is even lower unless the target is larger or not moving.

While it may not be a fair comparison being a t3 (although it is still a cruiser not a battlecruiser), a tengu w/ 3 bcs t2 and 6 HML2s does 621dps w/ the same ammo. This is why you see so many tengus in small gang/solo pvp because it actually has the dps to compete 1v1 vs other races.


A few comments:
- A 3 BCU HML Drake with my skills (not max) gets 452 DPS with Furies and 531 if you include drones. With long range weapons, it outdamages a standard kiting nanocane from 15 (Fury) to 20km (Faction)
- A 3 BCU HAM Drake gets 644 DPS with my skills (not max). It outdamages a standard nanocane from 9-30km.
- For some reason you think its fair to complain about the Drake not getting full damage but think that turret ships get full damage. -_- The ability for the Drake (and any missile ship really) to deal full damage while totally nano'ed out is pretty pro. :)
- All ships get less in game DPS than they show in EFT.

-Liang


WoW, I'm amazed by your ability to leave out important factors.

While the drakes KIN bonus is OK (it's not on other ships), missiles are far more penalized by various factors you can do nothing about, from which a nanocane will never suffer in a cane vs drake-fight. This makes this comparision pretty much epicfail. But yet again another proof for fail-maths on forums.

A nanocane will outdps your 644 FURYDPS-HAMDRAKE by a large margin. I leave it up to you why this is the case ;)
Khrage
#69 - 2012-01-24 17:36:08 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Galerak wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Galerak wrote:

Actually yes. The raw dmg numbers on the drake using kinetic missiles are sub par vs other BCs however the drake has an overpowered tank, which more often than not balances it out. Even as a caldari pilot i hate the drake. I'm glad it's getting re-balanced even tho some people are calling the changes a nerf. The reason the drake is so common is because aside for the training intensive shield skills it takes very little time to get into one and it's easy to use. Even an undertrained shield tank can fly one adequately because the shield setup of the drake is quite overpowered on its own. So drake fleets were born, dozens of new characters with crap skills in a ship with low damage but a respectable tank have become the most comon and hated sight in the cosmos. I sneer at every drake I see the same as you guys, because having spent quite a bit of time in one myself I consider them to be the ship of choice for noobs and lazy pilots.


You are aware that the Drake actually has really respectable DPS when it has 3 BCUs on it right? You're also aware that it has far superior damage projection to every other BC?

-Liang


With all lvl 5 skills a drake w/ 7 HML2s and 3 bcs t2 the drake does not even break 450dps w/ the t2 high dmg kinetic missiles. 444.55 dps to be exact. Now you gotta remember that while yes that is at a great range (75k) you ONLY get that damage output against a BS or larger unless it is also webbed and tp'd. And who is going to be webbed at 60k or farther? So even if 444.5 dps was on par dps for a bc the actual dmg output is even lower unless the target is larger or not moving.

While it may not be a fair comparison being a t3 (although it is still a cruiser not a battlecruiser), a tengu w/ 3 bcs t2 and 6 HML2s does 621dps w/ the same ammo. This is why you see so many tengus in small gang/solo pvp because it actually has the dps to compete 1v1 vs other races.


A few comments:
- A 3 BCU HML Drake with my skills (not max) gets 452 DPS with Furies and 531 if you include drones. With long range weapons, it outdamages a standard kiting nanocane from 15 (Fury) to 20km (Faction)
- A 3 BCU HAM Drake gets 644 DPS with my skills (not max). It outdamages a standard nanocane from 9-30km.
- For some reason you think its fair to complain about the Drake not getting full damage but think that turret ships get full damage. -_- The ability for the Drake (and any missile ship really) to deal full damage while totally nano'ed out is pretty pro. :)
- All ships get less in game DPS than they show in EFT.

-Liang


WoW, I'm amazed by your ability to leave out important factors.

While the drakes KIN bonus is OK (it's not on other ships), missiles are far more penalized by various factors you can do nothing about, from which a nanocane will never suffer in a cane vs drake-fight. This makes this comparision pretty much epicfail. But yet again another proof for fail-maths on forums.

A nanocane will outdps your 644 FURYDPS-HAMDRAKE by a large margin. I leave it up to you why this is the case ;)



i've killed my fair share of canes in my ham drake. right now the ham drake is a better ship, and that's why it's getting it's tank nerfed and the cane isn't.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#70 - 2012-01-24 17:36:40 UTC
mecubed wrote:
Shares with the cane, so 1 caldari ship you actually seen in mass on a fleet, compared to how many minnie ships?
So great caldari has 1 ship...Yet minnie pilots scream nerf because a cane cant insta **** it. CCP nerfs the one fleet caldari ship and still doesnt touch the cane, which is one of many minnie ships used in pvp.

The irony of this is under the lore of caldari supposedly being superior in tech, yet are beat by every other race, and the rest are beat by minnie.
Whats even more interesting in the ship usage numbers is seeing abaddons high on the list, yet, guess what they are using for guns? Arties........

T3's are too costly for huge fleets.. So screaming tengu, is a crap answer.


(From the quote i just did... forum acted up)

The amount of angry fanboy showing in your post is adorable. Caldari are supposed to be " superior in tech"? Come on...
Anyway, the whole point of this thread was that simply replacing the kinetic bonus with a rof bonus is somehow a good idea, and I showed you a few examples of why it is not. As for your minni hate, the cane needs a nerf as badly as the drake does, but that doesn't change the fact that the drake is OP

What's more is that there is more to the game than large fleet pvp. In smaller fleets the entire line of caldari ewar ships is AMAZING, the manti is a great bomber, the basi an amazing logi (just ask Liang :P ) as well as nagas that are now making their way into mainstream pvp (and people complained because it uses rails, despite it literally being the best damage projection in the game on a subcap). The harpy is a great AF, and there are many others that don't get nearly enough credit; like the moa/caracal, as well as the raven and rokh. Caldari isn't broken, so stop complaining about them.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#71 - 2012-01-24 18:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Galerak wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


Lets examine the underlined quote by taking a look at some common fits and the fits from several of my latest kills. Lets also consider having a 25% kinetic damage bonus and whether or not you should be using Kinetic missiles.

EHP from common fits:
- Drake: 67k EM / 76k Thm / 92k Kin / 105k Exp (Use EM damage)
- Nanocane: 49k EM / 48k Thm / 54k Kin / 60k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Plate Cane: 102k EM / 71k Thm / 66k Kin / 61k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Nano Binger: 44k EM / 44k Thm / 50k Kin / 56k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Plate Binge: 89k EM / 74k Thm / 69k Kin / 68k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Vagabond: 64k EM / 35k Thm / 23k Kin / 26k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Abaddon: 164k EM / 137k Thm / 128k Kin / 126k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Maelstrom: 76k EM / 66k Thm / 73k Kin / 78k Exp (Use Kin damage)

Here's the EHP from my last several kills:
- Vengeance: 6944 / 8128 / 10569 / 19937 (EM)
- Keres: 3889 / 4245 / 6265 / 3807 (EM)
- Tornado: 36599 / 32127 / 39529 / 45299 (Kin)
- Brutix: 86332 / 72613 / 74938 / 62804 (Kin)
- Sacrilege: 45075 / 84244 / 62322 / 115721 (Kin)
- Hurricane: 44843 / 42369 / 47880 / 51888 (Kin)
- Moa: 35594 / 31873 / 38778 / 44625 (Kin)
- Caracal: 13147 / 9782 / 11051 / 12284 (Kin)
- Taranis: 3992 / 3795 / 4322 / 3846 (Kin)
- Megathron: 153882 / 128045 / 131742 / 133635 (Kin)

Its most certainly possible to get a wider selection of fits but I'm pretty sure you're going to see a similar layout - maybe 5% of fights should use EM, 5% use Exp, and 90% use Kin.

-Liang

Ed: It occurs to me that you may not have trained BC5. In which case you should just be quiet. :)


Well my experience in actual combat has been quite different and of all my various saved fits i have found only 7 where Kinetic was in the bottom half of the resist table. However I will try flying a drake around for a while and see how well it works out. Or perhaps just load terror in the cerb more often. I'm willing to give it a try and see if I reach comparable results.


I don't know what is wrong with your experience in "actual combat" - but I've flown the Drake since Jan-Feb 2007 or so and Kin has been my go-to damage type ever since I trained BC5. Yes there are times that you don't want to use it - like when you're shooting an Ishtar - but overall its advantageous to use it with the 25% damage bonus.

-Liang

Ed: I did some number crunching a month or so back and the Drake has been my all time most commonly used ship... by quite a very large margin.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#72 - 2012-01-24 18:58:41 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:

WoW, I'm amazed by your ability to leave out important factors.

While the drakes KIN bonus is OK (it's not on other ships), missiles are far more penalized by various factors you can do nothing about, from which a nanocane will never suffer in a cane vs drake-fight. This makes this comparision pretty much epicfail. But yet again another proof for fail-maths on forums.

A nanocane will outdps your 644 FURYDPS-HAMDRAKE by a large margin. I leave it up to you why this is the case ;)


Missiles and guns are different - they will each be penalized by factors you can do nothing about and that the other ship will never suffer. Furthermore, landing a scram + web on a shield Cane means that you're basically going to get full damage application against him - even with Fury. Certainly a higher percentage than he will get with his tracking nerfed high damage ammo.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Flaming Head
Doomheim
#73 - 2012-01-24 19:02:54 UTC
Brutor Slavechild 1039248223 wrote:
Aamrr wrote:
Also, laser capacitor savings bonus says "hi."


No more of a crutch than a missile velocity bonus.


No, velocity bonus is a range bonus. Laser cap usage bonus enables the use of guns on a ship that would otherwise be unusable; it grants no advantage. This is especially true when considering that it is probably better to fit projectiles on any amarr ship with a laser cap bonus but no damage bonus.
Maya Mali
#74 - 2012-01-24 19:49:34 UTC
There are laser ships without cap bonuses, so your assertion they would otherwise be "unusable," is obviously false. Secondly, it grants the advantage of being less cap dependent. When your ships are literally balanced around eating tons of cap, using less is an advantage. Ships without damage bonuses are dumb though, I agree.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#75 - 2012-01-24 19:50:59 UTC
Flaming Head wrote:
Brutor Slavechild 1039248223 wrote:
Aamrr wrote:
Also, laser capacitor savings bonus says "hi."


No more of a crutch than a missile velocity bonus.


No, velocity bonus is a range bonus. Laser cap usage bonus enables the use of guns on a ship that would otherwise be unusable; it grants no advantage. This is especially true when considering that it is probably better to fit projectiles on any amarr ship with a laser cap bonus but no damage bonus.

Only if you plan on active tanking it tbh. People severely underestimate how much better lasers are at applying damage than projectiles, especially on bricks. To give you an idea, at around 20-23km, a vagabond does the same dps with pulse lasers as it does with it's TRIPLE bonused ACs. Granted its cap would be gone absurdly fast, but when dealing with amarr ships with higher base cap, that have bonuses to laser cap use...

Suffice to say, cap bonuses on lasers are fine.
mecubed
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-01-30 21:19:39 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
mecubed wrote:
Shares with the cane, so 1 caldari ship you actually seen in mass on a fleet, compared to how many minnie ships?
So great caldari has 1 ship...Yet minnie pilots scream nerf because a cane cant insta **** it. CCP nerfs the one fleet caldari ship and still doesnt touch the cane, which is one of many minnie ships used in pvp.

The irony of this is under the lore of caldari supposedly being superior in tech, yet are beat by every other race, and the rest are beat by minnie.
Whats even more interesting in the ship usage numbers is seeing abaddons high on the list, yet, guess what they are using for guns? Arties........

T3's are too costly for huge fleets.. So screaming tengu, is a crap answer.


(From the quote i just did... forum acted up)

The amount of angry fanboy showing in your post is adorable. Caldari are supposed to be " superior in tech"? Come on...
Anyway, the whole point of this thread was that simply replacing the kinetic bonus with a rof bonus is somehow a good idea, and I showed you a few examples of why it is not. As for your minni hate, the cane needs a nerf as badly as the drake does, but that doesn't change the fact that the drake is OP

What's more is that there is more to the game than large fleet pvp. In smaller fleets the entire line of caldari ewar ships is AMAZING, the manti is a great bomber, the basi an amazing logi (just ask Liang :P ) as well as nagas that are now making their way into mainstream pvp (and people complained because it uses rails, despite it literally being the best damage projection in the game on a subcap). The harpy is a great AF, and there are many others that don't get nearly enough credit; like the moa/caracal, as well as the raven and rokh. Caldari isn't broken, so stop complaining about them.


The lore for caldari says it all, im betting you didnt read that.. I fly pretty much all gallente. So your fanboi argument ends rght there. In small fleet pvp, I see far more minnie ships than anything.

You mention naga, yet for every 1 naga i see in a fleet, i see atleast 10 tornados and almost the same in oracles..Talos is just behind. When it comes to sniping, I can still do 200km with a Talos, get far better tracking and dps than a nag.

Try again... Minmatar fanboi.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#77 - 2012-01-30 22:00:55 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
the basi an amazing logi (just ask Liang :P)


Truth.

mecubed wrote:
I fly pretty much all gallente.


Last month your kills with the Tempest outnumbered all your kills with all Gallente ships combined. Source: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=mecubed#knownShips

Quote:

You mention naga, yet for every 1 naga i see in a fleet, i see atleast 10 tornados and almost the same in oracles..Talos is just behind. When it comes to sniping, I can still do 200km with a Talos, get far better tracking and dps than a nag.


http://killboard.nullisecunda.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=66788

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-01-30 22:40:57 UTC
mecubed wrote:
When it comes to sniping, I can still do 200km with a Talos, get far better tracking and dps than a nag.



No, you can't. At least make your blather plausible.
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#79 - 2012-01-31 02:21:27 UTC
Just practice fighting minmatar armor tankers. You will be shooting into their resist hole if they bothered to patch the natural exp hole (on most of their ships). Otherwise, you are still doing great damage to them.

Most of the people that whine about minmatar don't like facts and figures.

Solo Rifter since 2009
Pascal Almaric
The Solipsist Nation
#80 - 2012-01-31 12:55:21 UTC
I would be happy to trade the kinetic bonus for a smaller damage/ROF bonus, whatever the boffins calculate to be balanced or marginally weaker against a range of "typical fits". Selectable damage is more interesting to use, and more fun. Also it rewards thought and knowledge of the game, rather than Isk or SP, which is a good thing IMHO.