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What exactly did CCP nerf and what's all the fuss about?
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#21 - 2017-06-12 07:06:21 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
They nerfed carrier dps by 20-40% and ignored the Ghost Training SP farming exploit that's giving everyone free ISK and SP. Among other things.

Except you know.... they haven't ignored it. They just aren't doing a big announcement about fixing an exploit bu they've already run a script to fix it once and will almost certainly be working on back end fixes also.
Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
#22 - 2017-06-12 07:43:25 UTC
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
... But lack of content drivers in null? Please pull the other one. That's what everyone was saying before WWB. Most of the major content in this game has been player driven and not about mechanics at all.



I thought WWB was a combination of the biggest sov mechanics change ever, basically a complete overhaul, and the delivery of a dumptruck load of gambling isk. Witjhout the changes to sov mechanics you could WWB until you were blue in the face and change very little of the map. Entosis sov favours dogpiling and can only be defended by the sov holder.

Making carriers into really tanky battleships better be a major fix, because it's a major nerf.



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#23 - 2017-06-12 07:50:42 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
They nerfed carrier dps by 20-40% and ignored the Ghost Training SP farming exploit that's giving everyone free ISK and SP. Among other things.

Except you know.... they haven't ignored it. They just aren't doing a big announcement about fixing an exploit bu they've already run a script to fix it once and will almost certainly be working on back end fixes also.

Hahaha.

They already admitted, the script just works one off.

All someone needs to do is use some of their existing profits from ghost training to sub, restart and leave it again until CCP manually run the script again and stop everyone's training queue again, alpha or omega.

So unless CCP cronjob it to run once a month and fix up the issue of stopping omega characters training too, they haven't really fixed anything.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Marek Kanenald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2017-06-12 09:26:40 UTC
Funny thing is that the Ghost training fix is what caused everyone's skill training to be stopped accidentally.
Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
#25 - 2017-06-12 09:47:59 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
... But lack of content drivers in null? Please pull the other one. That's what everyone was saying before WWB. Most of the major content in this game has been player driven and not about mechanics at all.



I thought WWB was a combination of the biggest sov mechanics change ever, basically a complete overhaul, and the delivery of a dumptruck load of gambling isk. Witjhout the changes to sov mechanics you could WWB until you were blue in the face and change very little of the map. Entosis sov favours dogpiling and can only be defended by the sov holder.

Making carriers into really tanky battleships better be a major fix, because it's a major nerf.





Yet we want to return to pre-Aegis sov when noone could take sov and whoever brought the biggest blob to grind out those structures won. WWB was a culmination of a ton of isk and a large group of players wanting to stick it to the predominant entity in the game. The sov changes in themselves didn't 'trigger' the war. It was the players.

As for entosis sov favouring dogpiling? That's just rubbish. So we've moved the complaints about Aegis sov from ceptors and griffins online with everyone being able to 'troll our sov' to nobody can take it and it favours the defender? Yeah, right, can you maybe try that one again?

And what's wrong with a carrier being really tanky battleship? Lets face it the only time carriers were used before the nerf was for PvE. I'm sure you can point to a few null sec doctrines and that one time you dropped them on a super at band camp but apart from that they are used in havens because, unlike subcaps, they can tank the rat dread when it spawns. That's what the nerf is about and that's why the summer of rage is a farce.
April rabbit
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2017-06-12 10:30:45 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Callum Perkins wrote:
Title says it all really, I hear capitals have been in some way shape or form but could anybody explain? Question

...
This is due in a large part to Carriers running anomalies in Delve and Deklein with the totals of bounties in the game doubling in the last 12-18 months.
...
So a huge isk faucet for Null is being threatened and they are complaining. It also effects the carriers effects in PvP ...

Removing all the pathetic fuzz "i'm glad it is not nerf to my activity" this is what really matters.
- CCP increases amount of anomalies available to players
- CCP makes carriers and supers "too good" for killing NPC and getting big bounties
- CCP introduces skill trading -> making getting into carriers/supers easier
- ... (did i miss something?)

- Suddenly "players collect too much ISK". Let's not spend a minute thinking and just nerf fighters overall. It will solve the problem and never EVER use carriers/supers for PvP.

That's what all of this is about.
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2017-06-12 11:05:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Coralas
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
... But lack of content drivers in null? Please pull the other one. That's what everyone was saying before WWB. Most of the major content in this game has been player driven and not about mechanics at all.



I thought WWB was a combination of the biggest sov mechanics change ever, basically a complete overhaul, and the delivery of a dumptruck load of gambling isk. Witjhout the changes to sov mechanics you could WWB until you were blue in the face and change very little of the map. Entosis sov favours dogpiling and can only be defended by the sov holder.

Making carriers into really tanky battleships better be a major fix, because it's a major nerf.





Yet we want to return to pre-Aegis sov when noone could take sov and whoever brought the biggest blob to grind out those structures won. WWB was a culmination of a ton of isk and a large group of players wanting to stick it to the predominant entity in the game. The sov changes in themselves didn't 'trigger' the war. It was the players.



Nope CCP didn't release the offensive buff (fozzie sov) with the defensive buff (citadels) at the same time. I'm not arguing that the changeup from dominion was a bad thing by the way, but I still don't think they've made a system where you design your defenses much.

Quote:


As for entosis sov favouring dogpiling? That's just rubbish. So we've moved the complaints about Aegis sov from ceptors and griffins online with everyone being able to 'troll our sov' to nobody can take it and it favours the defender? Yeah, right, can you maybe try that one again?



entosis, triple timers all in the AU TZ and full asset security with a fee is not a loved combo by the playerbase.

Quote:


And what's wrong with a carrier being really tanky battleship? Lets face it the only time carriers were used before the nerf was for PvE. I'm sure you can point to a few null sec doctrines and that one time you dropped them on a super at band camp but apart from that they are used in havens because, unlike subcaps, they can tank the rat dread when it spawns. That's what the nerf is about and that's why the summer of rage is a farce.



you only need the carriers to clear the dread if it spawns. I lost a domi to a dread (hadn't been playing in null for a long time), because I wasn't aligned at the exact moment in time that I've since discovered is entirely predictable. If I align with 2 salvos to go on the previous wave, I can still pull the sentries on a domi and warp or stop if it doesn't spawn. All other ships have to be less trouble than a sentryboat.

Im actually pretty happy with that way that worked, because I told my fleet that the dread spawned, and carrier pilots came and cleared it, even if I lost a ship. In future unless being docked up between enemies in system causes me to forget which wave I'm on, I shouldn't lose one.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2017-06-12 11:30:07 UTC
April rabbit wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Callum Perkins wrote:
Title says it all really, I hear capitals have been in some way shape or form but could anybody explain? Question

...
This is due in a large part to Carriers running anomalies in Delve and Deklein with the totals of bounties in the game doubling in the last 12-18 months.
...
So a huge isk faucet for Null is being threatened and they are complaining. It also effects the carriers effects in PvP ...

Removing all the pathetic fuzz "i'm glad it is not nerf to my activity" this is what really matters.
- CCP increases amount of anomalies available to players
- CCP makes carriers and supers "too good" for killing NPC and getting big bounties
- CCP introduces skill trading -> making getting into carriers/supers easier
- ... (did i miss something?)

- Suddenly "players collect too much ISK". Let's not spend a minute thinking and just nerf fighters overall. It will solve the problem and never EVER use carriers/supers for PvP.

That's what all of this is about.

It is very obvious from the figures that the number of anomalies needs to be reduced by a factor of 10.

One null sec is almost claiming the same amount in bounties as the entire rest of the game.

Hopefully CCP will continue to reset all the damage that has been done to this game after their years of Null Sec favoratism.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#29 - 2017-06-12 11:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Algarion Getz
Callum Perkins wrote:
Title says it all really, I hear capitals have been in some way shape or form but could anybody explain? Question

In short: Nullbears are mad because their ISK printers get nerfed soon.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#30 - 2017-06-12 12:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
April rabbit wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Callum Perkins wrote:
Title says it all really, I hear capitals have been in some way shape or form but could anybody explain? Question

...
This is due in a large part to Carriers running anomalies in Delve and Deklein with the totals of bounties in the game doubling in the last 12-18 months.
...
So a huge isk faucet for Null is being threatened and they are complaining. It also effects the carriers effects in PvP ...

Removing all the pathetic fuzz "i'm glad it is not nerf to my activity" this is what really matters.
- CCP increases amount of anomalies available to players
- CCP makes carriers and supers "too good" for killing NPC and getting big bounties
- CCP introduces skill trading -> making getting into carriers/supers easier
- ... (did i miss something?)

- Suddenly "players collect too much ISK". Let's not spend a minute thinking and just nerf fighters overall. It will solve the problem and never EVER use carriers/supers for PvP.

That's what all of this is about.


CCP is nerfing the right thing this time. In the past CCP usually nerfed only symptoms of a problem while ignoring the actual cause.

For example: "Skynet". CCP made a change to carriers to let fighters benefit from the mods present on the Carrier their launched from. Carriers already had the ability to be remotely assigned to other players far away from the carrier. The end result Carrier pilots assigning incredibly powerful fighters to fast locking and cheap frigate sized ships on gates and slaughtering anything that came through. This was onyl possible because CCP didn't take into account the power of bonused fighters + Fighter Assist.

CCP's fix: Get rid of fighter assign for EVERYONE. I never gate camped once, I used fighter assign to rat and I got nerfed too.

Another example: Tracking Titans in the original Forsaken Hubs. CCP tried to buff anomalies so that not just sanctums and havens were viable. They did this by looking at the "EHP per site" statistic of havens and sanctums and adding more ships to lesser anoms. One anomalie (Forsaken Hubs) had no frigate spawns, so when they added more NPC Battleships and Battlecruisers to it they turned it into a Capital Ratters wet dream. Titan pilits would bring an alt in a Scimitar and the Scimitar would Tracking link And remote Sensor Boost the Titan. The End result was 500 million isk per hour Titan Ratting.

CCP's fix: Add frigs to Forsaken hubs, slowing them down for EVERYONE who rats. I did forsaken hubs with sub caps and didn't make 500 mil per hour and still got nerfed


THIS TIME CCP got it right. This time they looked at the game, saw that it was FIGHTER SQUADRONS that amped up the ratting income in null anomalies and this time their fix was to nerf the thing that caused the problem, FIGHTER SQUADRONS. So the rest of us who rat with sub caps and make reasonable isk aren't affected, the only people who are affected are the people who were piling on all that extra liquid isk.

I'm still in shock that CCP actually got something right when it comes to Anomalies, their past efforts have mostly been...less than stellar.
Steve Mittal
REACT0R
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2017-06-12 12:28:04 UTC
The problem with this nerf isn't so much about the nullsec income, it's more about the way CCP seems to be handling things. Instead of consulting with the CSM, or listening to the player base, they cherrypick some statistics ("260 million ISK ratting tick") and apply a fix-it-quick patch, completely ignoring the consequences they will cause.

As it stands now, before the patch, a single Griffin can completely shut down a single carrier (with multispectal jammers, it's possible to permajam 3 T1 light fighter squadrons). A 5 million ISK frigate shutting down a 2 billion ISK capital ship. What does CCP do? Further nerf the carrier's dps. So... Welcome to the new game called HAW DREADS ONLINE.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2017-06-12 12:33:24 UTC
Steve Mittal wrote:
The problem with this nerf isn't so much about the nullsec income, it's more about the way CCP seems to be handling things. Instead of consulting with the CSM, or listening to the player base, they cherrypick some statistics ("260 million ISK ratting tick") and apply a fix-it-quick patch, completely ignoring the consequences they will cause.

As it stands now, before the patch, a single Griffin can completely shut down a single carrier (with multispectal jammers, it's possible to permajam 3 T1 light fighter squadrons). A 5 million ISK frigate shutting down a 2 billion ISK capital ship. What does CCP do? Further nerf the carrier's dps. So... Welcome to the new game called HAW DREADS ONLINE.

Actually if you look at the feedback thread on this change, the CSM supports it.

This merely comes down to a minor correction to a Null sec in need of massive change.

After all Null sec is meant to to outlaw territory, not the land where it rains gold while you sit on your butt.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
April rabbit
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2017-06-12 12:41:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


...
CCP's fix: Get rid of fighter assign for EVERYONE. I never gate camped once, I used fighter assign to rat and I got nerfed too.

...

CCP's fix: Add frigs to Forsaken hubs, slowing them down for EVERYONE who rats. I did forsaken hubs with sub caps and didn't make 500 mil per hour and still got nerfed

THIS TIME CCP got it right. ...

I'm still in shock that CCP actually got something right when it comes to Anomalies, their past efforts have mostly been...less than stellar.

I remember your post where you said that you don't do carrier rat. I'm pretty sure you don't PvP in it too.

This is the root of your 'this time they do it right'. Want proof? I marked it bold.

Try better next time.
Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
#34 - 2017-06-12 12:50:57 UTC
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
The sov changes in themselves didn't 'trigger' the war. It was the players.

As for entosis sov favouring dogpiling? That's just rubbish. So we've moved the complaints about Aegis sov from ceptors and griffins online with everyone being able to 'troll our sov' to nobody can take it and it favours the defender? Yeah, right, can you maybe try that one again?



Without the changes to sov the players could have sat around saying grrgons until the end of time, even with the massive amount of isk just handed out.

The complaints you mentioned about Aegis sov i'm not aware of. Entosis sov allows anyone to attack but only the sov holder to defend, is this not true?



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#35 - 2017-06-12 12:52:31 UTC
I kind of feel like CCP needs to do more with the space and less with ships when it comes to wanting to nerf ships due to PvE.

You don't want people to rat in capital ships? At each anom put a gate... the gate doesn't allow ships bigger than battleships. Cyno's don't work in the pocket.

But the actual changing of ship stats (other than mining ships) should probably be based mostly on PvP.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#36 - 2017-06-12 12:53:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
April rabbit wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


...
CCP's fix: Get rid of fighter assign for EVERYONE. I never gate camped once, I used fighter assign to rat and I got nerfed too.

...

CCP's fix: Add frigs to Forsaken hubs, slowing them down for EVERYONE who rats. I did forsaken hubs with sub caps and didn't make 500 mil per hour and still got nerfed

THIS TIME CCP got it right. ...

I'm still in shock that CCP actually got something right when it comes to Anomalies, their past efforts have mostly been...less than stellar.

I remember your post where you said that you don't do carrier rat. I'm pretty sure you don't PvP in it too.

This is the root of your 'this time they do it right'. Want proof? I marked it bold.

Try better next time.


Go to zkill look up the character Cassius Rex. You will see that I have used Capitals for years (and I have used them to kill NPCs). I don't use Carriers in anomalies because i prefer sub caps, but I still have and use my Lvl 5 mission Thanatos.

I'm sorry CCP had to nerf the pvp ability of a single ship class to get the economy to not tear itself apart, but it's not like they haven't done so before.

This time at least they didn't punish EVERYONE who kills rats for isk because a few people made too much. That's progress.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#37 - 2017-06-12 12:56:32 UTC
Scialt wrote:
I kind of feel like CCP needs to do more with the space and less with ships when it comes to wanting to nerf ships due to PvE.

You don't want people to rat in capital ships? At each anom put a gate... the gate doesn't allow ships bigger than battleships. Cyno's don't work in the pocket.

But the actual changing of ship stats (other than mining ships) should probably be based mostly on PvP.


Why do people keep saying this. You know a gate would make anoms super safe (because anyone trying to kill you would have to go through a gate, giving the ratter more time to get out). It would mean fewer people would die in anoms which means MORE PEOPLE DOING ANOMS = "didn't fix the problem".

Fighter Squadrons caused the problem. Fighter Squadrons getting nerfed. Why affect everyone else when you know what the problem is and can just deal with that specific thing?
Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
#38 - 2017-06-12 13:06:28 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
The sov changes in themselves didn't 'trigger' the war. It was the players.

As for entosis sov favouring dogpiling? That's just rubbish. So we've moved the complaints about Aegis sov from ceptors and griffins online with everyone being able to 'troll our sov' to nobody can take it and it favours the defender? Yeah, right, can you maybe try that one again?



The complaints you mentioned about Aegis sov i'm not aware of. Entosis sov allows anyone to attack but only the sov holder to defend, is this not true?



Nope. I can kill any nerd trying to entosis anybody's sov. Unlees they are blue. I'm told this is not the done thing.

I can't entosis the node for the sov holder but then why would I want to? If they can't summon the energy to undock an atron with an entosis link then what are your paying them for?
Admiral Sarah Solette
Lmao Ty For Structure
#39 - 2017-06-12 13:44:32 UTC
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
Lets face it the only time carriers were used before the nerf was for PvE. I'm sure you can point to a few null sec doctrines and that one time you dropped them on a super at band camp but apart from that they are used in havens because, unlike subcaps, they can tank the rat dread when it spawns. That's what the nerf is about and that's why the summer of rage is a farce.


I don't think I've ever seen a player so ignorant of a ship class. Carriers were only used in PvE? Really? Because almost every major battle had carriers and dreads. Carriers are only used because they can tank dreadnaughts? So can rattles and T3Cs.

Maybe you should actually do a bit of research before you go spouting off horse **** from your high horse.
Admiral Sarah Solette
Lmao Ty For Structure
#40 - 2017-06-12 13:47:07 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
Callum Perkins wrote:
Title says it all really, I hear capitals have been in some way shape or form but could anybody explain? Question

In short: Nullbears are mad because their ISK printers get nerfed soon.

Yes, this change only affects care bears and not the PvP potential of an already gimped ship class.