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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1661 - 2017-06-12 10:13:33 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
lolzz Quekz wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
lolzz Quekz wrote:


please attribute that to carrier ratting

like i mentioned unless ccp throw the statistics to indicate that carriers are the true cost to the spike that the only way to shut everyone up but shutting isk income and killing a ship pvp-wise along the way is just not justifiable


Again, for most of 2016 ISK growth was flat...when VNI an Ishtars were around. Plenty of people could use them. Yet ISK growth was nearly flat. If drone boats in general were the problem...why was ISK growth so flat?


have you considered that some might graduated into multibox SB ratting? and also political climate potentially encouraging/allowing more people to rat in relative safety in bigger ships?

similarly it was quoted that some alliances are encouraging full on rat mode in prep of the coming winter wars when moon mining is out can it be the cause of a sudden spike? moon mining was introduced in march the same time the spike started


Not to this extent. If anything the argument: "Go rate like crazy we'll be having lots of wars" kinda fits with the narrative "carriers and supers are the problem." People went straight to the optimal ship for ISK printing.

As I pointed out a few pages back. The average monthly ISK growth was about 7 trillion ISK. Now last month it was 53 trillion. That is a 757% increase. 757%. Because people are in full ratting mode? Yeah...not buying explanation. Considering that kind of increase has NEVER been seen before.

Popular does not equal optimal. Carriers are cool, VNIs are effective and scaleable. VNIs are optimal, carriers are just very prevalent because we come here to have fun, not be utility monsters doing other things while printing isk. VNIs are isk printers, Carriers are isk oil paints. Bob Ross like Carriers.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1662 - 2017-06-12 10:14:32 UTC
Bron Ander Haltern wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
lolzz Quekz wrote:


please attribute that to carrier ratting

like i mentioned unless ccp throw the statistics to indicate that carriers are the true cost to the spike that the only way to shut everyone up but shutting isk income and killing a ship pvp-wise along the way is just not justifiable


Again, for most of 2016 ISK growth was flat...when VNI an Ishtars were around. Plenty of people could use them. Yet ISK growth was nearly flat. If drone boats in general were the problem...why was ISK growth so flat?


That is just your speculations only not hard data. Probably CCP just follow your thoughts path and that is just truly sad. Plus one can earn twice as much isks smart bombing havens than ratting in a super. Unless CCP shows data that clearly says super/carriers are the main cause, the economy argument that stands behind the cut is ridiculous period.

Another sad thing is that whenever any constructive post will apear in this thread on the forum immidiately 2 or 3 persons with a lot of likes post tons of answers with long quotations covering it with gibberish :(.


FFS, CCP Quant has made the data available in the Dev Blog.

Jesus, you can get it here.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

lolzz Quekz
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#1663 - 2017-06-12 10:15:02 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
lolzz Quekz wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
lolzz Quekz wrote:


please attribute that to carrier ratting

like i mentioned unless ccp throw the statistics to indicate that carriers are the true cost to the spike that the only way to shut everyone up but shutting isk income and killing a ship pvp-wise along the way is just not justifiable


Again, for most of 2016 ISK growth was flat...when VNI an Ishtars were around. Plenty of people could use them. Yet ISK growth was nearly flat. If drone boats in general were the problem...why was ISK growth so flat?


have you considered that some might graduated into multibox SB ratting? and also political climate potentially encouraging/allowing more people to rat in relative safety in bigger ships?

similarly it was quoted that some alliances are encouraging full on rat mode in prep of the coming winter wars when moon mining is out can it be the cause of a sudden spike? moon mining was introduced in march the same time the spike started


Not to this extent. If anything the argument: "Go rate like crazy we'll be having lots of wars" kinda fits with the narrative "carriers and supers are the problem." People went straight to the optimal ship for ISK printing.

As I pointed out a few pages back. The average monthly ISK growth was about 7 trillion ISK. Now last month it was 53 trillion. That is a 757% increase. 757%. Because people are in full ratting mode? Yeah...not buying explanation. Considering that kind of increase has NEVER been seen before.


never seen before doesnt mean it cannot be the case esp given the accessibility of carrier and things like rattlesnakes coming down to around 400m hull(before the recent pirate nerf) compared to the last couple of years and all the blue donuts around as of late is potentially an open door to allow lower sp toons bigger toys to play with.

i am relatively new to eve so i want want to argue too much on the case as my knowledge is limited i am just putting out observable facts and providing idea to improve the mechanics to still keep carriers alive cause carrier were my end goal even if i cant rat in it i wanna fly it out and do some good
MajkStone
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1664 - 2017-06-12 10:15:20 UTC
If the object of the designers is to **** off most of the player base until they literally unsubscribe, you guys are doing great!


This reminds me of the way SOE handled Star Wars Galaxies.


If you really want to fix the economy, ADD MORE CONTENT TO THE GAME. Come up with T3 Battlecruisers/Battleships.

Make T2 Capitals. Add more constructables.


All this stuff costs more and more isk and will be a nice isk sink. Stop nerfing the supply, and start buffing the demand.


You could also just reduce the bounty payouts across the board.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1665 - 2017-06-12 10:15:44 UTC
blaedin jordan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
blaedin jordan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Petros K wrote:
Start


Middle

End


Plus about 200M in true sansha stuff , that makes it almost 1B in 21hours .
VNI , 5months old noob player .
Super chill ratting , i watched Logan (2+half hours movie , bet you cant do that while you rat with carrier )
3 Episodes of Blood-C
ALOT YOUTUBE
ALOT OF CHATTINGS
Ate breakfast , lunch and dinner .
Drunk 3 coffees
Played alot of matches in HS (also got a legendary card from pack! )




Sure , carriers is the problem .....


Now what is the same with a carrier ratting the same amount of time?

Seriously, you take an extreme case and pretend it is the norm.

Like I said, please do not go full moron.


First of all, carrier ratting is NOT afk. You quickly lose more fighters than you earn in any anom if you try it, not to mention you have to actively send the fighters at targets...

Second, Paladins, Golems, Tengus, Rattlesnakes, and the list goes on...are ALL capable of making the same kind of ISK carriers can in an anom. Carriers are popular because they have jump drives, are end-game ships, look cool, and most people have trained for a year or longer to fly them. Nerfing carriers, and I mean this literally, isn't going to dent ISK generation. You'd have to be absolutely dense to think that enterprising players aren't going to quickly adapt and move around the nerf.

It's the dang principle that's the issue. CCP tried to slip this in an the last minute, bypassed our CSM, and made some stupid lie about how 1% of the players are the only one's affected (think of all the dudes in renting corps, low sec corps/alliances, wormholes, etc that use carriers too). Sure, ISK generation has skyrocketed. Their graph shows this, but have you thought to consider maybe it's because nullsec mechanics are garbage and warfare has basically ground to a halt? Why is that? ASK FOZZIE!


No, it is the ISK entering the economy. You want it to be anything but your ISK printer. You are dodging, weaving, and bullshitting with nonsense.

Do you think that CCP can't do the following:

Graph ISK via ratting by ship type? I'm guessing they can. They did, and they said, "Whoops...****. Gotta fix that."

I'll grant you the fix is bad in that it gimps the ships for PVP. But that aside, those ships needed to be gimped for PVE/printing ISK. You were doing too much of it. Enjoy the ISK you got and stop complaining. The party's over and CCP took away the punch bowl.



Your attempts to become an apologist for these devs and this horrendous nerf fall flat. Carriers don't print isk, they run anoms at the same speed as mauraders, and if anything enjoy a larger tank...but that doesn't help kill anything, does it? And yes, your right in that the nerf applies to PvP, which is probably the larger reason this nerf happened in the 1st place--to neuter Goon, PL, and other super-alliances capital fleets by 20% damage across the board for carriers and 10% for supercaps.

But to sit here and insinuate that the next graph isn't going to show the ISK "printing" hasn't shifted from carriers to (one of many other options next) is naive. So keep making excuses for them if you want, but don't expect people to believe you. If there's too much ISK coming into the game, they should fix sov mechanics so people are blowing things up again and work to add isk sinks. NOT to announce giant nerfs to ships people spent months on end training to get into 3 days before they go live--without testing--and without input from our elected CSM representatives.


Go look at the data.

ISK entering the economy has increased by 757%

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1666 - 2017-06-12 10:17:57 UTC
lolzz Quekz wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
lolzz Quekz wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
lolzz Quekz wrote:


please attribute that to carrier ratting

like i mentioned unless ccp throw the statistics to indicate that carriers are the true cost to the spike that the only way to shut everyone up but shutting isk income and killing a ship pvp-wise along the way is just not justifiable


Again, for most of 2016 ISK growth was flat...when VNI an Ishtars were around. Plenty of people could use them. Yet ISK growth was nearly flat. If drone boats in general were the problem...why was ISK growth so flat?


have you considered that some might graduated into multibox SB ratting? and also political climate potentially encouraging/allowing more people to rat in relative safety in bigger ships?

similarly it was quoted that some alliances are encouraging full on rat mode in prep of the coming winter wars when moon mining is out can it be the cause of a sudden spike? moon mining was introduced in march the same time the spike started


Not to this extent. If anything the argument: "Go rate like crazy we'll be having lots of wars" kinda fits with the narrative "carriers and supers are the problem." People went straight to the optimal ship for ISK printing.

As I pointed out a few pages back. The average monthly ISK growth was about 7 trillion ISK. Now last month it was 53 trillion. That is a 757% increase. 757%. Because people are in full ratting mode? Yeah...not buying explanation. Considering that kind of increase has NEVER been seen before.


never seen before doesnt mean it cannot be the case esp given the accessibility of carrier and things like rattlesnakes coming down to around 400m hull(before the recent pirate nerf) compared to the last couple of years and all the blue donuts around as of late is potentially an open door to allow lower sp toons bigger toys to play with.

i am relatively new to eve so i want want to argue too much on the case as my knowledge is limited i am just putting out observable facts and providing idea to improve the mechanics to still keep carriers alive cause carrier were my end goal even if i cant rat in it i wanna fly it out and do some good


In 65 months we have not seen this sudden jump in the growth if ISK...and suddenly it is okay?

You are just simply wrong. That kind of growth in the money supply, if sustained, will be devastating in terms of inflation. Go look at the Chinese server were botting is completely allowed and ISK is flowing into the economy at unprecedented rates. PLEX were several multiples of what they cost on Tranquility and that was several years ago.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1667 - 2017-06-12 10:22:28 UTC
I know most people here are averse to looking at the data...but you can find it here.

The money supply grew rapidly last month. We saw some pretty wild swings recently with Alpha clones lining up with a surge in the money supply. A big drop when citadels were released (everyone and their Uncle Bob buying up blueprints). There is no similar explanation with the recent rise in the money supply.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
Already Replaced.
#1668 - 2017-06-12 10:22:31 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


ISK entering the economy has increased by 757%


new sov makes people grind to get indexes up, how much of this is down to replacing lost stuff and the need to grind for sov defenses?

something must be done that's for sure, can't sustain a 757% rise
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1669 - 2017-06-12 10:24:19 UTC
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


ISK entering the economy has increased by 757%


new sov makes people grind to get indexes up, how much of this is down to replacing lost stuff and the need to grind for sov defenses?

something must be done that's for sure, can't sustain a 757% rise


Oh FFS. New sov has been around for longer than last month.

Next stupid explanation?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Seiver D'amross
Subach-Tech
#1670 - 2017-06-12 10:25:28 UTC
this seems relevant again

http://i.imgur.com/CvBhZER.jpg
blaedin jordan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1671 - 2017-06-12 10:26:04 UTC

"ISK entering the economy has increased by 757%"

I understand that talking about, but nerfing carriers isn't going to dent that number. Those that aren't leaving are already flying rattlesnakes, T3s, or mauraders doing the same as before. Heck, I've even got 2 paladins making 30+m ticks whereas my carriers usually only averaged 26+.
Anthar Thebess
#1672 - 2017-06-12 10:27:01 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Reserved


Thread was posted.
Players responded, can we have some reply from CCP side, or our input is unimportant?
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
Already Replaced.
#1673 - 2017-06-12 10:27:52 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


ISK entering the economy has increased by 757%


new sov makes people grind to get indexes up, how much of this is down to replacing lost stuff and the need to grind for sov defenses?

something must be done that's for sure, can't sustain a 757% rise


Oh FFS. New sov has been around for longer than last month.

Next stupid explanation?


stupid?

well fair enough feck face, take your opinion and ram it.
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1674 - 2017-06-12 10:27:52 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Go look at the data.

ISK entering the economy has increased by 757%

Looks like a lot of farming and production with very few destructions, more or less, stockpiling is occurring and it looks to be occurring mainly in Delve and the way very little is being blown up I'd wager this is Corps and Alliances building up for a big fight.

The data makes CCPs nerf look even more reactive and ham-handed, especially since users have clearly demonstrated that ISK farmers ought to be using things like the VNI instead of time-wasters like the carriers.

Your **** stinks, Teckos.
blaedin jordan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1675 - 2017-06-12 10:27:56 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


ISK entering the economy has increased by 757%


new sov makes people grind to get indexes up, how much of this is down to replacing lost stuff and the need to grind for sov defenses?

something must be done that's for sure, can't sustain a 757% rise


Oh FFS. New sov has been around for longer than last month.

Next stupid explanation?


Actually, that's a pretty valid point -- especially when taken into factor that new sov mechanics are very anti-war and nobody enjoys fighting for null sec territory anymore either. It's become quite dull, which just pushes people into pve even more.
lolzz Quekz
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#1676 - 2017-06-12 10:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: lolzz Quekz
Teckos Pech wrote:
I know most people here are averse to looking at the data...but you can find it here.

The money supply grew rapidly last month. We saw some pretty wild swings recently with Alpha clones lining up with a surge in the money supply. A big drop when citadels were released (everyone and their Uncle Bob buying up blueprints). There is no similar explanation with the recent rise in the money supply.


which was my point eve was relatively at war for quite a long while with the blue donut officially forming around feb? march? somewhere along that line have you considered that this insane increase have been potentially attributed to the now safe space to rat and naturally enticing people to rat more to "save up for rainy days" there have been no full scale invasion for the 3 months or so..

and of cause i cant proof anything until the next major war breaks out and only then can we see if the blue donut might actually be the contributing factor to the sudden spike look at it this way.. even during war-times isk was still flowing in.. what would happen once peace comes?

alright i am going to stop now i am just saying you cannot attribute everything to just carrer and SC ratting
Valdr Auduin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1677 - 2017-06-12 10:34:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Valdr Auduin
I'll reiterate my suggestion to copy/paste Fozzie's SOV mechanics by tying them to planetary command centers and bringing back orbital bombardment and eliminating the in-space node system for planetary capture. Citadels being tough nuts to crack can be ignored because you can then fight around them instead of having to slog directly through them. I don't know how being able to sink PI where right now AFAIK they're invulnerable will affect the market.

ED: Regardless, it would allow you to siege cits by taking the system and cutting off their supply lines and thus encourage wars to sink all this material that's apparently being stockpiled.
Bron Ander Haltern
Special Mining Ops Inc.
#1678 - 2017-06-12 10:35:54 UTC
There is nowhere in economic report any data that shows clearly what ship classes get the most bounty so they can stick that report you know where in regard of supporting fighters cut.
blaedin jordan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1679 - 2017-06-12 10:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: blaedin jordan
I'll miss my carriers, but I'm actually making more in Marauders now honestly. I'm going to miss playing with my friends that have left more though [I hear rattlesnakes are dope too], the rorq changes have people even madder than I am about the massive nerf to fighters...that forum is going up into flames as well.
Ben Johannson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1680 - 2017-06-12 10:39:38 UTC


Quote:
Look at the data FFS. ISK growth was pretty much flat for quite some time.



Interestingly, CCP's own economic releases show no inflation. If that's the case then trajectory of isk quantity is irrelevant.