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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

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Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#1581 - 2017-06-11 23:30:37 UTC
Mariza vonAmdonen wrote:
Thomas DeTorquemada wrote:
Ridiculous preteen Mentality....


I give it two months when number of subscribers have dropped along with the revenue, then coax them back with a buff and an admission of 'we got it wrong' subtly placed somewhere in the patch.

Target the problem of the loot drop in the first place and the bounty.

Next it'll be ' we dont need guns anymore on ships, start throwing buns instead'
Ratters will keep on ratting but you've upset the pvp population way more imo, unjustifiably

Do you really think this is the way to assure game longevity? come on devs, do the right thing


they dont want to nerf all ratting, just carrier/super-ratting that is OP.

I've been watching PLEX prices since this 'uprising' and guess what they are steadily rising. no indication of significant loss of subscribers

PLEX prices wouldn't be an indicator this soon anyway. Before leaving I put all my ISK into PLEX and other investments I expect to increase in value, because I have 0% confidence in CCP's attempts to stop inflation if this is what they're trying. I probably bought 3-4 months worth of my normal PLEX consumption so my disappearance actually contributed to a temporary increase in PLEX price at the moment.
Mariza vonAmdonen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1582 - 2017-06-11 23:51:01 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Mariza vonAmdonen wrote:
Thomas DeTorquemada wrote:
Ridiculous preteen Mentality....


I give it two months when number of subscribers have dropped along with the revenue, then coax them back with a buff and an admission of 'we got it wrong' subtly placed somewhere in the patch.

Target the problem of the loot drop in the first place and the bounty.

Next it'll be ' we dont need guns anymore on ships, start throwing buns instead'
Ratters will keep on ratting but you've upset the pvp population way more imo, unjustifiably

Do you really think this is the way to assure game longevity? come on devs, do the right thing


they dont want to nerf all ratting, just carrier/super-ratting that is OP.

I've been watching PLEX prices since this 'uprising' and guess what they are steadily rising. no indication of significant loss of subscribers

PLEX prices wouldn't be an indicator this soon anyway. Before leaving I put all my ISK into PLEX and other investments I expect to increase in value, because I have 0% confidence in CCP's attempts to stop inflation if this is what they're trying. I probably bought 3-4 months worth of my normal PLEX consumption so my disappearance actually contributed to a temporary increase in PLEX price at the moment.


so, effectively, you are not leaving. Just pretending so, by temporary disappearing.
Crash 888
TRINTEX
#1583 - 2017-06-12 00:35:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Crash 888
Tom Ocilithon
TESLA Conglomerate
#1584 - 2017-06-12 00:42:50 UTC
Right then. There's practically no point adding to the mountain of **** that's gone down already, but here goes:

So I'm a new cap pilot, just bought myself a shiny new thanatos. I've spent a year training for this, and I've spent just shy of 5 billion ISK on it. I look forward to ratting with it, possibly make back the time and money I've put into this thing.

Suddenly - "Fighter damage reduction", and I think "Oh. It'll be something like a 5% reduction. 10% If we're being serious."
Hmm.

I don't understand what CCP are thinking. A 20% nerf to fighter damage is insane. I've only just got my hands on a carrier, and I'm having 700dps just lopped off of my initial 3500dps. I've been training for this for a third of my EVE career, and I've been grinding for this thing, only to have it stomped on as I get it. Thanks. To make things easier, someone has obviously had the great idea of "Oh, lets give everyone 5 days notice before we drop this!" Just enough time to do... oh wait. Nothing.

I must admit. I was worried that it was the 1st of April, and I'd just gone mad. But at this point, it looks like those damned "Biomass converters" might genuinely be added, which would still be more balanced than these fighter changes.

The forum post mentioned that "This ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players." well, I'd like to point out that this is called "Progression"! This is what makes EVE actually fun! There's always something bigger and shinier, and carriers are a large part of the higher up progression elements of EVE. This is the point - for a relatively small number of people to be at the top of a progression distribution in terms of players by character skill and by extension, age.

Now, I am highly against the idea of just un-subbing, it seems a damn sight close to blackmailing the developers into giving us what we want and not thinking about the overall balance of the game. But when such an obviously harmful nerf is dropped with 5 days worth of notice, that basically makes the last year worth of grinding and skill training redundant, I am furious. And that's extremely difficult for a British person to say. I have dropped my subscription, with the only regret that my re-sub happened too recently.

CCP, please genuinely listen to our feedback. We have a wonderful game which has been built by both developers and the community. Do not **** it up like this.

TL:DR - These fighter changes can **** off.
Jang Taredi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1585 - 2017-06-12 01:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jang Taredi
Tom Ocilithon wrote:
Right then. There's practically no point adding to the mountain of **** that's gone down already, but here goes:

So I'm a new cap pilot, just bought myself a shiny new thanatos. I've spent a year training for this, and I've spent just shy of 5 billion ISK on it. I look forward to ratting with it, possibly make back the time and money I've put into this thing.

Suddenly - "Fighter damage reduction", and I think "Oh. It'll be something like a 5% reduction. 10% If we're being serious."
Hmm.

I don't understand what CCP are thinking. A 20% nerf to fighter damage is insane. I've only just got my hands on a carrier, and I'm having 700dps just lopped off of my initial 3500dps. I've been training for this for a third of my EVE career, and I've been grinding for this thing, only to have it stomped on as I get it. Thanks. To make things easier, someone has obviously had the great idea of "Oh, lets give everyone 5 days notice before we drop this!" Just enough time to do... oh wait. Nothing.

I must admit. I was worried that it was the 1st of April, and I'd just gone mad. But at this point, it looks like those damned "Biomass converters" might genuinely be added, which would still be more balanced than these fighter changes.

The forum post mentioned that "This ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players." well, I'd like to point out that this is called "Progression"! This is what makes EVE actually fun! There's always something bigger and shinier, and carriers are a large part of the higher up progression elements of EVE. This is the point - for a relatively small number of people to be at the top of a progression distribution in terms of players by character skill and by extension, age.

Now, I am highly against the idea of just un-subbing, it seems a damn sight close to blackmailing the developers into giving us what we want and not thinking about the overall balance of the game. But when such an obviously harmful nerf is dropped with 5 days worth of notice, that basically makes the last year worth of grinding and skill training redundant, I am furious. And that's extremely difficult for a British person to say. I have dropped my subscription, with the only regret that my re-sub happened too recently.

CCP, please genuinely listen to our feedback. We have a wonderful game which has been built by both developers and the community. Do not **** it up like this.

TL:DR - These fighter changes can **** off.



I've friends that were training and having supercarriers built, only to have the same happen. Their 20bil ships will only be worth 15bil, as well.
Ezio Sotken
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1586 - 2017-06-12 01:41:57 UTC
Jang Taredi wrote:
Tom Ocilithon wrote:
Right then. There's practically no point adding to the mountain of **** that's gone down already, but here goes:

So I'm a new cap pilot, just bought myself a shiny new thanatos. I've spent a year training for this, and I've spent just shy of 5 billion ISK on it. I look forward to ratting with it, possibly make back the time and money I've put into this thing.

Suddenly - "Fighter damage reduction", and I think "Oh. It'll be something like a 5% reduction. 10% If we're being serious."
Hmm.

I don't understand what CCP are thinking. A 20% nerf to fighter damage is insane. I've only just got my hands on a carrier, and I'm having 700dps just lopped off of my initial 3500dps. I've been training for this for a third of my EVE career, and I've been grinding for this thing, only to have it stomped on as I get it. Thanks. To make things easier, someone has obviously had the great idea of "Oh, lets give everyone 5 days notice before we drop this!" Just enough time to do... oh wait. Nothing.

I must admit. I was worried that it was the 1st of April, and I'd just gone mad. But at this point, it looks like those damned "Biomass converters" might genuinely be added, which would still be more balanced than these fighter changes.

The forum post mentioned that "This ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players." well, I'd like to point out that this is called "Progression"! This is what makes EVE actually fun! There's always something bigger and shinier, and carriers are a large part of the higher up progression elements of EVE. This is the point - for a relatively small number of people to be at the top of a progression distribution in terms of players by character skill and by extension, age.

Now, I am highly against the idea of just un-subbing, it seems a damn sight close to blackmailing the developers into giving us what we want and not thinking about the overall balance of the game. But when such an obviously harmful nerf is dropped with 5 days worth of notice, that basically makes the last year worth of grinding and skill training redundant, I am furious. And that's extremely difficult for a British person to say. I have dropped my subscription, with the only regret that my re-sub happened too recently.

CCP, please genuinely listen to our feedback. We have a wonderful game which has been built by both developers and the community. Do not **** it up like this.

TL:DR - These fighter changes can **** off.



I've friends that were training and having supercarriers built, only to have the same happen. Their 20bil ships will only be worth 15bil, as well.


15 bil if they are lucky. If they bought an aeon or wyvern....yea gonna suck.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#1587 - 2017-06-12 01:43:53 UTC
Mariza vonAmdonen wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
PLEX prices wouldn't be an indicator this soon anyway. Before leaving I put all my ISK into PLEX and other investments I expect to increase in value, because I have 0% confidence in CCP's attempts to stop inflation if this is what they're trying. I probably bought 3-4 months worth of my normal PLEX consumption so my disappearance actually contributed to a temporary increase in PLEX price at the moment.


so, effectively, you are not leaving. Just pretending so, by temporary disappearing.

I intend to disappear however long it takes CCP to change the direction of development to something more positive. Whether that's a month or forever is beside the point. I love Eve and want it to be great, and there's still a chance it can be. I haven't lost hope for the game, but I have lost faith. If things don't change for the better I won't be back, but I sincerely hope the direction does improve so I can come back some day. I'd be a fool not to prepare for that possibility in what little way I can.
SoundKonducta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1588 - 2017-06-12 02:55:48 UTC
Extremely disappointing decision made here...should've just made it so supers cannot warp to anoms. CCP please stop nerfing everything so ridiculously hard so it breaks ships =(
lolzz Quekz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1589 - 2017-06-12 04:09:46 UTC
and CCP_falcon said feedback should be posted back at forums as its easier for dev to respond Lol
hiding their asses like medieval fat overlords when the peasants are revolting and screaming "dont let them in guards!"
Joe Barbarian
Back Street Boys With Capital Toys
#1590 - 2017-06-12 04:14:16 UTC
Rumour has it that that if we hit 100 pages the changes will be reversed.
lolzz Quekz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1591 - 2017-06-12 04:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: lolzz Quekz
on the hindsight, carriers are most people's end game content because its the most versatile cap available and of cos being a jack-of-all-trades cap its capabilities after the first nerf is was still reasonable but this nerf almost pushes carriers down one tier, carrier into T2 sub-caps and super-carriers into normal cap class unless this is your intent somewhere down your roadmap.

and if it is your intention please do make appropriate changes esp in mineral cost to put them around the cost of a fitted marauder to justify the use of carriers.

and basically what you are also telling us is that "capital ships were never intended to be use as an isk making tool if so HAW guns on dreads needs to be look at too i believe it is possible to rat drifters? with HAW guns" dont just nerf fighters cause "its making too much money"
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1592 - 2017-06-12 04:47:56 UTC
Chevy Caputtos wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
C0ATL wrote:


Where exactly do the graphs show >carriers< responsible for the ISK influx? While bounty is the highest index on the income graph, it needs to be stated that it has always been so. The extra influx is coming from Alpha clones being drafted into nullsec alliances and thought to AFK rat in drone cruisers. CCP claims to make a stand against passive isk income while doing little to nothing in terms of punishing bot users and solving AFK cruiser ratting. Funny how on the same release as carrier nerfs, the Vexor and Ishtar models are getting a re-work :))) ...

The fact that the dramatic spike in Bounties from about 40 Trillion isk to today's 70 Trillion isk can be traced back to the patch that buffed carriers. Given that Vexors & Ishtars have been around in their current form for significantly longer, and if it were profitable to the tune of 30 trillion isk to put more alts doing it, people would have done it with subbed alts, it's a reasonable assumption to guess that Alpha's in Vexors are not responsible for the sudden jump and that it is instead carriers.
Furthermore Quant is almost certainly capable of pulling more detailed metrics from the system like 'what ship was someone in when they got paid/killed a rat' and probably does know what he's talking about when he says that the spike is carriers.
Especially when the player accessible data supports that statement.

I.E. Stop trying to blame someone else and accept that it is carriers causing the massive spike.


Might have more to do with skill injectors.


Yes, I used a skill injector and suddenly 150 million ISK showed up in my wallet. You can't be serious with this. Even if people are using injectors to get into carriers the problem is...carriers. They are too efficient at ratting and making ISK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1593 - 2017-06-12 04:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
idontknowy wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
C0ATL wrote:


Where exactly do the graphs show >carriers< responsible for the ISK influx? While bounty is the highest index on the income graph, it needs to be stated that it has always been so. The extra influx is coming from Alpha clones being drafted into nullsec alliances and thought to AFK rat in drone cruisers. CCP claims to make a stand against passive isk income while doing little to nothing in terms of punishing bot users and solving AFK cruiser ratting. Funny how on the same release as carrier nerfs, the Vexor and Ishtar models are getting a re-work :))) ...

The fact that the dramatic spike in Bounties from about 40 Trillion isk to today's 70 Trillion isk can be traced back to the patch that buffed carriers. Given that Vexors & Ishtars have been around in their current form for significantly longer, and if it were profitable to the tune of 30 trillion isk to put more alts doing it, people would have done it with subbed alts, it's a reasonable assumption to guess that Alpha's in Vexors are not responsible for the sudden jump and that it is instead carriers.
Furthermore Quant is almost certainly capable of pulling more detailed metrics from the system like 'what ship was someone in when they got paid/killed a rat' and probably does know what he's talking about when he says that the spike is carriers.
Especially when the player accessible data supports that statement.

I.E. Stop trying to blame someone else and accept that it is carriers causing the massive spike.




CCP Quant is an amateur statistician using outlier numbers.


Those outliers are causing a problem. Just because a data point is an outlier does not make it false, or unimportant.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1594 - 2017-06-12 04:53:03 UTC
Hamasaki Cross wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
[img]http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/newssystem/media/71813/1/GermanFlag33.png[/img]  [img]http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/FLAG_-_RUSSIAN-33.png[/img]


This trend is unsustainable. Having such a large ISK faucet is bad for the economy, and this ISK faucet is concentrated to a relatively small number of players.



I quit eve after one of the dozen nerfs in the last few months after playing since Beta. Someone linked this nerf to discord, which caused me to chuckle and chime in.

For you people complaining about nerfs, it's really quite simple.

"Isk faucets" need to go away so you buy more plex since this game hasn't had a new player base in many years. (free to play influx is laughable, as any game on such a transition is well known to be on it's last legs) As such, it's not going to be unusual in the coming months to continue to see many more nerfs for players who have invested billions of isk and years of time into SP and ships, in order to reduce the total number of available isk/SP. Since injectors implementation, these nerfs cause a direct loss of SP as people rip now obsolete skills (now Carriers, before, rorquals, before mining barges/hulks when rorquals were rebalanced, leadership skills, etc) at a great loss. As new injectors give far less SP than the SP ripped, this is net profit for CCP who needs an increased revenue stream.

I rip 500k SP and get 150k back in return or whatever the calculation works out to be. 350k SP removed from the game so I need to buy 3 additional injectors to make back my lost SP.


I'm going to run on the assumption that this moronic CCP trend will continue and continue to train useless skills as they suddenly become the only viable option for gameplay (such as salvaging) in the future. And since I FOOLISHLY (really, shame on me) subbed for the remainder of the year, near the end of said sub, I'll login and take a peak around at the new 'enhanced' CCP velator with mining lasers only gameplay style. "for the economy" of course since suddenly CCP really cares about the "player driven economy" which is actually now "ccp nerf driven".


All this said, I find CCP's strategy highly curious for a game that attracts zero new customers. (new accounts are redundant as people increase scale on existing accounts in the world's most multibox able game). Screw remaining cash cow customers who have given years of solid support in preference for.... I dunno what... bankruptcy?

To CCP devs/marketing team, at this point, have you guys just given up on this game? -- This is an honest question (not trolling, bruh) and I wonder what the honest answer is (or if such a thing were realistic to expect)


And finally, somewhat comically, I find it hilarious that fozzy didn't send out this nerf advice. I guess he/she/other finally got tired of being crapped on by the general population for announcing many dozens of other bad business moves.


That degree of growth in the money supply is simply bad. When the growth rate increases by 600% the next thing will be dramatic inflation if sustained.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Bruminon
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#1595 - 2017-06-12 05:04:07 UTC
if capitals were removed from the game, i'd still play. if you require absurd ticks because you cant shell out $15/month, perhaps you shouldnt be playing games at all. focus on your career instead or get a job/mow lawns.

capitals in general should be a force to be reckoned with. a small fleet of 30m cruisers shouldnt be able take down a carrier in my opinion. the fighter drone's tank is so weak that carriers are easily defanged. now nerf damage further and they're even more weak.

can get a rattlesnake with 1500+ dps, meanwhile a chimera will run 2000 dps with the nerf.


i really don't care what happens, as i enjoy sub-capital ships as well. i just dont see myself undocking my carriers for pvp. what's the purpose for carriers in pvp? it's surely not dps.

some ships should be overpowered, because they cost a FORTUNE. even with amazing ticks, it still takes forever to replace a super.

obviously ccp has identified a legit issue with PVE, but i dont think this was the solution.
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1596 - 2017-06-12 05:11:38 UTC
I've removed an off-topic disrespectful post and those quoting it.

Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Terrence Miromme
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1597 - 2017-06-12 05:13:47 UTC
...waits for the Mass Exodus & Mass Unsubscribes. Im seriously thinking myself of quitting EVE for good, so many nerfs to caps lately why even have carriers, heck why not only have just frigs if you want all the ships even. This was a big F&$# you from CCP to all those of us that pay real money every month and want to have nice things in EVE.
Jhousetlin Zamayid
#1598 - 2017-06-12 05:17:16 UTC
FYI, EVE is now in hyperinflation. This is extremely troubling and does have game-breaking consequences if there isn't some form of intervention to bring it back under control.
Jhousetlin Zamayid
#1599 - 2017-06-12 05:19:00 UTC
Terrence Miromme wrote:
...waits for the Mass Exodus & Mass Unsubscribes. Im seriously thinking myself of quitting EVE for good, so many nerfs to caps lately why even have carriers, heck why not only have just frigs if you want all the ships even. This was a big F&$# you from CCP to all those of us that pay real money every month and want to have nice things in EVE.


If you want nice things in EVE, you should probably care more about the overall health of the game and the economy, instead of your own myopic desire to have a certain shiny ship.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1600 - 2017-06-12 05:19:11 UTC
Jhousetlin Zamayid wrote:
FYI, EVE is now in hyperinflation. This is extremely troubling and does have game-breaking consequences if there isn't some form of intervention to bring it back under control.


Uhhh...no, not yet. Let this kind of growth in the money supply continue and could very well happen.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online