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Alpha redo

Author
Ryenovyrus
Takada Aeronautics Crew
#1 - 2017-06-09 03:56:43 UTC
I know, I can't wait for the hate mail on this one. But this isn't a 'give alpha pilots super powers and T2 ships' post. What it is though, is the taking of the alpha pilot, and look at what CCP designed them to be, a stepping stone into Omega account for new players.
This is something that happens more times than not, the Newbie Alpha pilot exploding in space, becoming extremely frustrated with the game and then quitting it all together. This has the potential to kill Corporations that allow alpha pilots, and dismantle the future alpha pilot from ever getting the experience to want to pay for omegahood.
So is the answer bigger better ships? No. Offering additions skill points? No. What if the Alpha pilot had a PVP invulnerability until 3,000,000 skill points or until that pilot commits a suspicious or criminal offense? I think so. That would give the new player a 'safety' feature that they can control and could also be manipulated to control.
They need to time to learn the game before thrown to the wolves or PVP pirates and wardec's that truly take there tolls on new players. This game has lost a lot of potential omega pilots by this kind of actions occuring on a day to day basis. Just my 2 cents worth.
Kassimila
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#2 - 2017-06-09 04:19:37 UTC
I agree that the alpha player -> omega player transition needs some love. I've been trying to get my friend into the game and it's been difficult. However PVP invulnerability is way too exploitable. You'll have alpha scouts everywhere. I think if you want to improve alpha accounts to promote new players a few things would need to happen.

- Really fast skill training up to 3-4 million SP.
- The tutorial should be highly encouraged as that seemed to help my friend out, however it didn't team him for example how to load ammo. Something in place for new player feed back as to what the tutorial failed to teach them that they feel was basic may help this.
- Some more engaging low end content. Maybe even take them into some faction warfare. Seems like a good way for a new player to get their pvp feet wet.
- Lastly some pre-loaded suggested frig/cruiser fits in their fitting window that an alpha toon can actually fit.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3 - 2017-06-09 04:46:05 UTC
Pvp invulnerability is both ridiculously op and the complete opposite of what eve is about. Sheltering noobs from pvp just makes them mission runners (which is 80x more likely to put them off the game than ship loss).

Engaging noobs when they are online is by far the best way to keep them coming back. Loltastic low sec roams, running high end missions in small ships, disposable ships ready for them to lose. Things like that. Fw warfare missions are easy to blitz, pay extremely well (using a 1mil sp alpha to solo level 3's in a t1 frig atm) and will teach players basic fleet skills and survival tactics.

Unfortunately there are a lot of corps out there that promise noobs everything but are ******* incompetent, lazy or trying to leach corp tax off their members. Make sure to wardec these and poach their membership.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4 - 2017-06-09 04:47:46 UTC
Pre loaded fits are good. As is a pre set overview.

Make an overview for your corp and link it in the bullet-in board. Now all your noobs have all the same tabs as you, see all the same things as you in all the same colours.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#5 - 2017-06-09 07:24:28 UTC
Actually CCP looked into this and they found that people who engage in combat are more likely to subscribe. So your idea would probably directly hurt the player retention: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#6 - 2017-06-09 08:47:08 UTC
Getting blown up in Eve doesn't hurt - except maybe in the wallet if you are flying something you can't afford to lose. T1 ships can be insured for replacement cost and most PVP corps will have a SRP program.

The sooner people realize that, the better - one reason why you get podded at the end of the inception tutorial.

Even those attracted to the game by the economic simulation need to realize that there would be no demand for the stuff they make if things didn't explode!

The starter systems are safe. https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203209712-Rookie-Griefing
Scialt
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#7 - 2017-06-09 12:44:52 UTC
I think the alpha accounts don't necessarily need love so much as the early player game (alphas or not).

Eve now has a fairly competent way to introduce players early on.

1. Tutorial.
2. Career Agents
3. SOE story arc

But then it kind of ends. As the training has a lot of "mission running"... I think most players go straight to lvl 1 or lvl 2 missions... and those missions are pure grind without much in the way of story.

Eve does have pretty interesting story. There's not a whole lot drawing the players into it unless they seek it out themselves, but it's there.

So... in many other games you have a LOT of main-storyline type missions and many players would go through those missions as they level up and then arrive at the "end game" afterwards, with some sort of skill level developed from following the story. Eve's end game is pretty much from the start... but there's not a long story arc to get you comfortable in the universe first.

I don't see why that couldn't be added.

Right now we have the tutorial and career agents and the SOE epic arc. Then you have 4 empire faction and 2 pirate faction epic arcs... which require ships an Alpha player can't fly and a new omega player can't afford for a while... and a high faction standing.

If we add some intermediate epics to bridge the gap between the two, that might prove useful in keeping new players around long enough so their familiarity (and investment) with the game reaches the point they may not want to leave.

Effectively... SOE is a destroyer based set of missions. The faction ones are BS level mission. So why not add epic arcs at the Cruiser and BC levels? Draw them into the story of eve... have them stick around longer so they try to complete the epic arcs. Make them want to sub to get a BS to finish their faction epic arc. By then... maybe they're hooked.
Ryenovyrus
Takada Aeronautics Crew
#8 - 2017-06-09 13:20:58 UTC
There is a lot to be said about the intro tutorial, as its a joke at best. I have recruited a lot of new players and they never make it out of the intro tut as it confuses them or do not understand parts of it. A lot have quit during that intro.
There is no denying the fact that newbie alpha griefing is a continual occurrences in starter systems. What do you call a multi year Omega spamming 1 or 2 day alphas into fights, occupational training? I don't think that if you could run the numbers that you would have a high percentage of TRUE new players that would want to stick around after a gank or losing a duel. Some just want to learn the game. Its so easy to learn any way, right?
I am not trying to advocate the empowering of Alpha pilots, but just that there is some room for additional improvement to help encourage alpha to omega transitions.
Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#9 - 2017-06-09 16:59:20 UTC
Ryenovyrus wrote:

This is something that happens more times than not, the Newbie Alpha pilot exploding in space, becoming extremely frustrated with the game and then quitting it all together.

The problem is not that some leave the game in frustration. Perhaps they will come back later as I did.
Perhaps they will never come back.
Maybe it's not for them.
The problem is that some see this as a fault of the game that must be fixed.
Ryenovyrus
Takada Aeronautics Crew
#10 - 2017-06-10 14:54:40 UTC
EVE has a very broad learning curve as it is, and so to help a dumb guy out (me), the consensus is just throw the new people to EVE into the fire and see who come out of it? That works a small percentage of the time, where as if Alpha pilots had a bit more of a chance to learn the game more, before being thrust head first into the massive dynamics of EVE, is all I'm trying to say.

I also don't see where looking at helping EVE retain pilots to further expand the possibility of future Omega pilots is a problem. The real problem is when people don't see it as an issue. I have had people I have recruited into eve QUIT before the intro tutorial was even over because they didn't understand what to do or it wasn't explained very well. Then the ones that did make it out of the tutorials, we harassed by older pilots who preyed on fresh new pilots.

No one can tell me that invulnerability isn't a factor in the game, because it is. It is used daily by every pilot out there. In my opinion, Alphas should be given a chance. Maybe a newbie invuln period isn't the answer, maybe it is. The intro tutorial needs reworked at least, as I know that is a problem. My thought is just a smoother transition into the game to help keep some of the people that might quit early into the game.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2017-06-10 15:08:55 UTC
Invulnerability is not a smooth transition, it is a completely different game. As soon as it drops and people are introduced to the actual game, you'll run into whatever problem you think invulnerability will solve.

Also every vet will use an invulnerable alpha clone in an itty V to haul things.
Tiberius NoVegas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2017-06-11 01:20:05 UTC
Ryenovyrus wrote:
I know, I can't wait for the hate mail on this one. But this isn't a 'give alpha pilots super powers and T2 ships' post. What it is though, is the taking of the alpha pilot, and look at what CCP designed them to be, a stepping stone into Omega account for new players.
This is something that happens more times than not, the Newbie Alpha pilot exploding in space, becoming extremely frustrated with the game and then quitting it all together. This has the potential to kill Corporations that allow alpha pilots, and dismantle the future alpha pilot from ever getting the experience to want to pay for omegahood.
So is the answer bigger better ships? No. Offering additions skill points? No. What if the Alpha pilot had a PVP invulnerability until 3,000,000 skill points or until that pilot commits a suspicious or criminal offense? I think so. That would give the new player a 'safety' feature that they can control and could also be manipulated to control.
They need to time to learn the game before thrown to the wolves or PVP pirates and wardec's that truly take there tolls on new players. This game has lost a lot of potential omega pilots by this kind of actions occuring on a day to day basis. Just my 2 cents worth.


Absolutely Not. I can easly see this being exploited and abused in lets say low or null sec.

The real issue with this is an older problem that i know i will get hate mail for. High sec isnt as secure as people think it is or as its suppose to be. Alphas can get ganked rather easily in high sec as the current system isnt enough to actually deter gankers from using alt to loot or just straight up doing it for the lol/killmail. In fact if an alpha wants to freely play the game, the current mechanics make null the safest meaning his best option would be to join a big corp and b-line to null to play the game with impunity from gankers. High sec was designed for new players to have a safe place to learn the game and transition to low sec as designed to intermediate palyers into null sec. Not all players wil follow this rule as many (too many) find high sec rather lucrative to stay in. Incentives to move more ganker to null/low need to be implemented as well as more incentives for new players to progress to low/null areas. High sec should be low profit with low risk, more security measure should be made to make it safer but as already stated it should be balanced by its low reward potential.
Bjorn Tyrson
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#13 - 2017-06-11 03:51:10 UTC
Ryenovyrus wrote:
the consensus is just throw the new people to EVE into the fire and see who come out of it? That works a small percentage of the time.


it worked for the first 10+ years of the game, and that is the experience that most of the people posting on the forums went through, which is why that tends to be the common consensus.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#14 - 2017-06-11 04:27:59 UTC
You don't throw them into the fire. You lead them into it in a blaze of glory or die a long side them in fiery laughter.

People stay when they find a good group to regularly play with. Winning or losing is rarely a deciding factor so long as you have someone to create memories with.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

DrysonBennington
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-06-11 09:01:49 UTC
Maybe form a Corporation called The Alpha Player's Club to make it all better inside.
Axure Abbacus
Pentex Subsidiaries Corp
#16 - 2017-06-12 01:24:54 UTC
Invulnerability would only increase loss aversion to new players. It can be difficult to keep new players and that is not always a bad thing. What would help would to make the time new players spend here the best it could be and I don't see that here. The best thing right now is the simplest hello. I like to give away to new players leadership skills books. Simpler is some times better.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2017-06-12 08:56:42 UTC
Scialt wrote:
1. Tutorial.
2. Career Agents
3. SOE story arc

Last time I checked the new NPE, it looked somewhat like this:
1: naturally
2: was mentioned as a side note in the same sentence that sends people to mine - CCPlease stop sending people to mine!
3: never was mentioned

Also
4: the COSMOS mission chain that barely anyone is talking about, even if it has potential as something that new people are more familiar with*
By the way cosmos, my experience isn't the best either, I accidentally found an agent floating in space, when I talked to him he was giving me a mission (not offering as station agents do, so I couldn't delay/reject it) about an item that I didn't have, then I had to spend some time on google, figuring out where the cosmos chain starts, and then do the missions in order, and about 5-10 missions later I got back to the agent I started with.

*The funny thing is that these missions are probably the things most people who played other MMOs will find engaging, and they also give more time to get used to the game, meet people, etc.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Scialt
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#18 - 2017-06-12 15:28:52 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Scialt wrote:
1. Tutorial.
2. Career Agents
3. SOE story arc

Last time I checked the new NPE, it looked somewhat like this:
1: naturally
2: was mentioned as a side note in the same sentence that sends people to mine - CCPlease stop sending people to mine!
3: never was mentioned

Also
4: the COSMOS mission chain that barely anyone is talking about, even if it has potential as something that new people are more familiar with*
By the way cosmos, my experience isn't the best either, I accidentally found an agent floating in space, when I talked to him he was giving me a mission (not offering as station agents do, so I couldn't delay/reject it) about an item that I didn't have, then I had to spend some time on google, figuring out where the cosmos chain starts, and then do the missions in order, and about 5-10 missions later I got back to the agent I started with.

*The funny thing is that these missions are probably the things most people who played other MMOs will find engaging, and they also give more time to get used to the game, meet people, etc.


You have a very good point... considering I started playing a decade ago, have run hundreds of missions and never did the cosmos missions.

I'm probably going to run through these now just so I know what's out there.
mkint
#19 - 2017-06-12 15:59:04 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Scialt wrote:
1. Tutorial.
2. Career Agents
3. SOE story arc

Last time I checked the new NPE, it looked somewhat like this:
1: naturally
2: was mentioned as a side note in the same sentence that sends people to mine - CCPlease stop sending people to mine!
3: never was mentioned

Also
4: the COSMOS mission chain that barely anyone is talking about, even if it has potential as something that new people are more familiar with*
By the way cosmos, my experience isn't the best either, I accidentally found an agent floating in space, when I talked to him he was giving me a mission (not offering as station agents do, so I couldn't delay/reject it) about an item that I didn't have, then I had to spend some time on google, figuring out where the cosmos chain starts, and then do the missions in order, and about 5-10 missions later I got back to the agent I started with.

*The funny thing is that these missions are probably the things most people who played other MMOs will find engaging, and they also give more time to get used to the game, meet people, etc.


You have a very good point... considering I started playing a decade ago, have run hundreds of missions and never did the cosmos missions.

I'm probably going to run through these now just so I know what's out there.

You know, COSMOS are probably more appropriate for EVE than pretty much any of the other PVE in the game. The agents say "Go find this thing, I don't care how you get it." and then you have to battle your way through a bunch of static sites behind size restricted gates until you find what you need (or just buy it, the agent really doesn't care). They are rough and you can permanently ruin your chances which sucks, but that they are mostly a hook for you to go find your own adventure, really is probably the kind of philosophy that is needed to save EVE. And that's what the rookies need... not a protected theme park, not a series of missions you can't really fail. A hook that draws them into an actual adventure with risks and mastery. Shoot, even established players seem to go inactive because they can't find any worthwhile adventures.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2017-06-12 16:32:37 UTC
mkint wrote:
Scialt wrote:
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Scialt wrote:
1. Tutorial.
2. Career Agents
3. SOE story arc

Last time I checked the new NPE, it looked somewhat like this:
1: naturally
2: was mentioned as a side note in the same sentence that sends people to mine - CCPlease stop sending people to mine!
3: never was mentioned

Also
4: the COSMOS mission chain that barely anyone is talking about, even if it has potential as something that new people are more familiar with*
By the way cosmos, my experience isn't the best either, I accidentally found an agent floating in space, when I talked to him he was giving me a mission (not offering as station agents do, so I couldn't delay/reject it) about an item that I didn't have, then I had to spend some time on google, figuring out where the cosmos chain starts, and then do the missions in order, and about 5-10 missions later I got back to the agent I started with.

*The funny thing is that these missions are probably the things most people who played other MMOs will find engaging, and they also give more time to get used to the game, meet people, etc.


You have a very good point... considering I started playing a decade ago, have run hundreds of missions and never did the cosmos missions.

I'm probably going to run through these now just so I know what's out there.

You know, COSMOS are probably more appropriate for EVE than pretty much any of the other PVE in the game. The agents say "Go find this thing, I don't care how you get it." and then you have to battle your way through a bunch of static sites behind size restricted gates until you find what you need (or just buy it, the agent really doesn't care). They are rough and you can permanently ruin your chances which sucks, but that they are mostly a hook for you to go find your own adventure, really is probably the kind of philosophy that is needed to save EVE. And that's what the rookies need... not a protected theme park, not a series of missions you can't really fail. A hook that draws them into an actual adventure with risks and mastery. Shoot, even established players seem to go inactive because they can't find any worthwhile adventures.

I think these missions are mostly fine, though I would change a few things.
- somehow advertise the starting agents, like put all of the epic arc and COSMOS staring agents on the list of your mission journal for example
- if you fail a mission, you can try it again after a month - this isn't like the SOE arc where you can repeat the whole thing every 3 months, the completed missions will stay completed for ever, like currently
Currently gankers can completely cut these mission chains by destroying the courier objects, which I think is more of a punishment for PVE oriented players than the style of the game. Try to imagine any other game where because of unwanted interaction with other players, you either reset your character back to 0 or won't be able to do anything other than daily quests.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.