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caldari-minmataet ship
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Asset Confiscation Officer
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2017-06-09 18:42:45 UTC
1. Why is this ship needed.

2. Show that no other current ship fills the need.

3. Explain why the need is so great that using precious coding time to make it is justified because a need is one thing but a need great enough to deserve coding and upkeep coding is another thing altogether.

4. And most importantly understand there is no race called the minmataet or any other massacre of the word Minmatar.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2017-06-10 10:54:28 UTC
Asset Confiscation Officer wrote:
1. Why is this ship needed.

2. Show that no other current ship fills the need.

3. Explain why the need is so great that using precious coding time to make it is justified because a need is one thing but a need great enough to deserve coding and upkeep coding is another thing altogether.

4. And most importantly understand there is no race called the minmataet or any other massacre of the word Minmatar.

I can't answer the OP, but I'll try with my Thukker logi version.

1: There is no omni-logi ship in the game. Even if we only keep the remote armor rep and shield boost, this would be useful for any fleet. Literally any fleet.

2: Orca and Nestor are a good argument here for existing large logi ships. But could you please list me a few battles where Orcas were taken on purpose, definitely to fill the role of shield logi ships? Nestor is another interesting case. By lore it should be a black-ops ship. The best reason I can think for not being one is the black-ops ships were introduced after the Nestor, but if we make these ships maybe we could put the Nestor to it's rightful place too. Also, I think a group of armor logi cruisers of the same value would actually be much more useful in almost any situation than a few Nestors fit for remote rep.

3: I have to skip this.

4: maybe people wouldn't make fun of Minmatar more often than the other factions, if the faction itself wouldn't be a mess.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Tiberius NoVegas
NovKor Corp.
#23 - 2017-06-11 01:07:11 UTC
Asset Confiscation Officer wrote:
1. Why is this ship needed.

2. Show that no other current ship fills the need.

3. Explain why the need is so great that using precious coding time to make it is justified because a need is one thing but a need great enough to deserve coding and upkeep coding is another thing altogether.

4. And most importantly understand there is no race called the minmataet or any other massacre of the word Minmatar.


1. The Minmatar-Caldari need a pirate faction to fill the void between these two factions. as of right now with the absence of one there is no incentive for pilots to train these two ship skills together exclusively except they just like those two faction ship lines. This will also make more sense in game lore as there is no real strong reason for them not have formed a pirate faction other then the same old "friend of my enemy" argument that i believe is debunked by the amount of lore showing they have and still do work together in limited scope.

2. A Logi pirate faction ship doesnt exist. im not saying the example i gave should be the one used but i believe there is a huge potential for a logi pirate ship. The thing about logi ships is that you can remove them from the game and it will impact the balance a bit but it wont be game breaking. logi just change up the normal dynamic of a battle by swaying the battle in a non-standard way. Its impossible to prove something is needed in the game when its an enhancement instead of a balancer.

3. i direct your attention to the new CONCORD ship line. please defend CCP's decision on this, this "precious" coding is already being used up by CCP on a lot of things that the game doesnt need.

4. I love the Minmatar but i think one thing many Players agree on is that the Minmatar are a mess. Maybe a mess isnt the right word but the Minmatar ship line up is definitely all over the the place. No other single faction requires as many different skills to be just as proficient then the Minamatar. This affects game balance as a Minmatar player with the same SP as another player in any other single faction is going to have gaps formed in the required skills needed for his ship line up. This has been around for years and CCP should bring the entire line up into coherency as it would be a better use for coding then added a new CONCORD ship line.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#24 - 2017-06-11 08:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Quote:
The best reason I can think for not being one is the black-ops ships were introduced after the Nestor


Nestor is introduced many years after black ops ships and i don't think CCP even had Nestor in plan as black ops given those ships are tech II and Nestor is a pirate class ship.

all cloaky shenanigans stops at cruiser lvl exception being four battleships i think its like that for a good reason.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2017-06-11 11:23:18 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Quote:
The best reason I can think for not being one is the black-ops ships were introduced after the Nestor


Nestor is introduced many years after black ops ships and i don't think CCP even had Nestor in plan as black ops given those ships are tech II and Nestor is a pirate class ship.

all cloaky shenanigans stops at cruiser lvl exception being four battleships i think its like that for a good reason.

Isn't one of the main benefit of SOE ships that you can have almost T2 level cov-ops explorer for barely any required skill? In fact you need cov-ops level 4 to have a better probe bonus than what the SOE ships get as a role bonus.
Sure, it's not the best idea to give players a black-ops battleship for 2x level 3 battleship skills, however Nestor is still a relatively rare and definitely expensive ship, and you would need a lot of extra skills to use it properly, and the T2 black-ops will probably be better when you get there.

Tiberius NoVegas wrote:
4. I love the Minmatar but i think one thing many Players agree on is that the Minmatar are a mess. Maybe a mess isnt the right word but the Minmatar ship line up is definitely all over the the place. No other single faction requires as many different skills to be just as proficient then the Minamatar. This affects game balance as a Minmatar player with the same SP as another player in any other single faction is going to have gaps formed in the required skills needed for his ship line up. This has been around for years and CCP should bring the entire line up into coherency as it would be a better use for coding then added a new CONCORD ship line.

The most common argument against this this is "Minmatar always was like this".
I have 3 problems with this:
- this is a fact, not a reason
- this doesn't explain why is it better for the balance to have 3 factions with specialized defense and one with both armor and shield, instead of having all 4 factions use one of the 4 different defense methods and make all of them completely unique
- if I slightly rephrase that sentence, what I get is: "Look, I know and/or don't care that this basically goes against the game's own rules and follows no logic at all, but we're over a decade in this game like this and it never made any sense, so why change it now?"

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Autchei
Doomheim
#26 - 2017-06-12 23:47:19 UTC
There is no omni-logi ship in the game.

And none should be added, just my opinion.

Bad hair days should be required by law !
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2017-06-13 00:27:33 UTC
Autchei wrote:
There is no omni-logi ship in the game.

And none should be added, just my opinion.

Please forgive me, but I will turn the game's current logic against your opinion: if we have a faction that has both armor and shield tanked ships, and the new Loki will be able to have both armor and shield tank in the same subsystem and both options are just as efficient as the other factions' defenses, then we definitely need omni-logi ships.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
StarterrorPrime
Black Rose Fleet Strategics
#28 - 2017-06-13 01:19:54 UTC
From my understanding, a Minmatar Caldari hybrid ship seems like a great idea because of Minmatari projectile weapons focus and Caldari use of Missiles, but as people said before, Minmatar fleet doctrine is diverse to say the least while Caldari is streamlined in a way. The ideal hybrid would be a Missile Sniper platform with a bonus to missile damage and a boost to shield extenders and boosters in terms of efficiency, while keeping the ship preferably within known lore, making it a prime candidate for the Archangels since their fleet doctrine favors that sort of thing. Now as far as size class, I would think cruiser or destroyer would be perfect for this type of vessel without being over the top in terms of cost, still there is quite a bit of clash in fleet design doctrines as far as Caldari Minmatar design operates.

Your average Minmatar ship is meant to be a Junker that is able to take the odds and ends of other modules that other races use ergo the ship that blows up other ships and takes their modules to improve upon the hull. Hell, take your average Maelstrom, send it on a rampage through Amarr and Caldari space, its gonna end up taking all the resistance modules from both races, slap it on the hull then you have yourself one tanky Maelstrom, and given enough phased plasma rounds, there will be tears. A fun experiment I did, I plucked modules off dead Archangel rats and outfitted a Rifter for Ganking so that pretty much summizes Minmatar ships
Tiberius NoVegas
NovKor Corp.
#29 - 2017-06-13 08:39:32 UTC
StarterrorPrime wrote:
From my understanding, a Minmatar Caldari hybrid ship seems like a great idea because of Minmatari projectile weapons focus and Caldari use of Missiles, but as people said before, Minmatar fleet doctrine is diverse to say the least while Caldari is streamlined in a way. The ideal hybrid would be a Missile Sniper platform with a bonus to missile damage and a boost to shield extenders and boosters in terms of efficiency, while keeping the ship preferably within known lore, making it a prime candidate for the Archangels since their fleet doctrine favors that sort of thing. Now as far as size class, I would think cruiser or destroyer would be perfect for this type of vessel without being over the top in terms of cost, still there is quite a bit of clash in fleet design doctrines as far as Caldari Minmatar design operates.


While this is a possibility, i dont know enough about Archangels lore to say they have a strong Minmatar-Caldari connection to make them exclusive to those two factions. While there lore supports the fighting style and lore of pirates, there is nothing says they exclusively use missles or projectiles either...

StarterrorPrime wrote:
Your average Minmatar ship is meant to be a Junker that is able to take the odds and ends of other modules that other races use ergo the ship that blows up other ships and takes their modules to improve upon the hull. Hell, take your average Maelstrom, send it on a rampage through Amarr and Caldari space, its gonna end up taking all the resistance modules from both races, slap it on the hull then you have yourself one tanky Maelstrom, and given enough phased plasma rounds, there will be tears. A fun experiment I did, I plucked modules off dead Archangel rats and outfitted a Rifter for Ganking so that pretty much summizes Minmatar ships


Where is this lore written? The Minmatar created there ships from other ships a long time ago. the modern day hulls are very much there own design now. The Republic Fleet has there own modules because there manufacturing them in Minmatar space and not salvaging them off other factions. There is speculation that the Thukkers still do this but mainly for profit and not for equipping.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2017-06-13 09:47:57 UTC
Tiberius NoVegas wrote:
StarterrorPrime wrote:
Your average Minmatar ship is meant to be a Junker that is able to take the odds and ends of other modules that other races use ergo the ship that blows up other ships and takes their modules to improve upon the hull. Hell, take your average Maelstrom, send it on a rampage through Amarr and Caldari space, its gonna end up taking all the resistance modules from both races, slap it on the hull then you have yourself one tanky Maelstrom, and given enough phased plasma rounds, there will be tears. A fun experiment I did, I plucked modules off dead Archangel rats and outfitted a Rifter for Ganking so that pretty much summizes Minmatar ships


Where is this lore written? The Minmatar created there ships from other ships a long time ago. the modern day hulls are very much there own design now. The Republic Fleet has there own modules because there manufacturing them in Minmatar space and not salvaging them off other factions. There is speculation that the Thukkers still do this but mainly for profit and not for equipping.

Yup, it looks like the lore is the reason why Minmatar is kind of all over the place, but then shouldn't they have bonuses to all types of turrets too? You can't balance a game around it's lore, it's like the function follows the shape, if anything it should be the opposite way:
The people of Minmatar were the slaves of Amarr, so their ships are designed to be the opposite of what Amarr has: active shield instead of passive armor, and anti-armor projectiles against the anti-shield lasers. Also, shield boosters are easier to make because they only need energy while armor requires a lot of materials, so if you have nothing then you will probably go the easiest way you can find.
It's not hard to make both the lore and the logic work.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.
Tiberius NoVegas
NovKor Corp.
#31 - 2017-06-13 10:14:39 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:

Yup, it looks like the lore is the reason why Minmatar is kind of all over the place, but then shouldn't they have bonuses to all types of turrets too? You can't balance a game around it's lore, it's like the function follows the shape, if anything it should be the opposite way:
The people of Minmatar were the slaves of Amarr, so their ships are designed to be the opposite of what Amarr has: active shield instead of passive armor, and anti-armor projectiles against the anti-shield lasers. Also, shield boosters are easier to make because they only need energy while armor requires a lot of materials, so if you have nothing then you will probably go the easiest way you can find.
It's not hard to make both the lore and the logic work.


I dont subscribe to this theory. The Rifter, Rupture, Hurricane and Typhoon are the Armour tanks in the Minmatar line up...They would be severely limited by this in all Minmatar Fleets as logi would be force to dual rep armour and sheilds to properly support them. Over all this would mean a harder force to support.

The only advantage the Armour gives this ships is that they would excel in Fleets supported by Gallante Logi. This raises more questions about the lore as why you dont see mixed armour/sheild in other factions. SO we have to assume based on the ship line up on the other factions that each faction is suppose to be self sufficient, once again leaving the Minmatar line-up in question.
StarterrorPrime
Black Rose Fleet Strategics
#32 - 2017-06-17 17:52:11 UTC
Actually some Minmatar ships are armour tanks like Hurricane while some are shield tanks akin to the Maelstrom, it largely depends on the availability of certain slots in terms of low to mid. The Rifter is also more of a speed tank than anything because you can slap an afterburner or microwarpdrive to watch that puppy tear through systems at 1k m/s to 2.3k ms, there would be no way that you can catch that.
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