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[June] Fighter Damage Reduction

First post First post First post
Author
Wayne Silk
Balkan Kings
Goonswarm Federation
#401 - 2017-06-09 14:08:14 UTC
CCP are u on coffee break ???
Panther X
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#402 - 2017-06-09 14:08:14 UTC




No it would be FOTM if it had NEVER been a viable source before, like the Rorqual situation. Carriers and Supers have ALWAYS been a viable source of income, but the game changed to make the level of investment much easier to handle; skill injectors, low ship prices, etc.
If no one had ever done it before and now all the cool kids do it, that's FOTM. Like a one hit wonder band. THAT is FOTM.
Lowering the investment level to get into a profit making device is just opening a PROVEN income stream to more people.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Mossyblog Barnes
Resilience.
DARKNESS.
#403 - 2017-06-09 14:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mossyblog Barnes
Imho you're basing a lot of bad product management decisions of quantitative metrics. If you bothered to look at this more holistically you'd likely rationalise the events of income increases to be more focused on a number of contributing events - specifically microtransaction(s).

The Paradox of Thrift comes to mind here where you apparently aren't really factoring in player behaviours (qualitative). Some alliances and coalitions are right now actually coming out from under a "hoarding" behaviour, whereby they have been for the better part of month instructing members to "Krabbing" in order to get ready for larger PVP content next month.

Further to this, you have issues around CCP's introduction to microtransaction behaviour such as PLEX. This, in turn, has created a serious impact on the Eve economy on all product line(s). Moreover to the point the skill injector changes, in turn, has pushed pricing out further.

So now when you look at the said graph you've got a number of contributing variables that result in players likely more focused on PVE has given that's a likely easier route to liquidity in ISK which in turn feeds the aforementioned points (cause and effect).

Subtle effects introduced by CCP also IMHO hint strongly that you folks are opting towards removing the "Plex to Play" instead of heading towards "Pay to play". Things like selling Plex in a bundle of 240 via player purchases but then selling content such as skins for 250. You're effectively goading your player base to over buy in order to purchase, so either a player pays for the 500 ISK bundle or they pay 240 and 100 resulting in a 90 remainder. Its a form of economic affordance that's obviously similar to retail channels who put in place "minimum spend" targets on consumers.

The point I'm making is it's obvious you're attempting to draw further income from your player base in order to offset whatever investments you may be having as a company in either Eve Online or other product lines you're making.

Here's the reality though, you're not growing your market share at the moment and with these ongoing changes in passive income you're imposing a negative effect on the existing market share you have (therefore likely replenishing the market is less inclined).

Rorq mining is volatile at the moment due to anxiety about its changes (see 'Excavator' Mining Drone pricing indicative of its anxiety). Given your max reality for a Rorqual, a miner is approx 150m ISK per hour you in turn as a player may seek an alternative stream - in this case Super Ratting. De-invest in the Mining and re-invest back into PVE, but your buy-in is around 24billion+ for said super. This, in turn, means you'd need to grind for a month or maybe two in order to pay that investment back before you actually generate positive ISK.

Factor in now the risk(s) associated with super rating which is quite high, you've now got to then focus in around how larger corporation/alliances/coalitions protect their members within systems. In doing this they, in turn, localise their deployment strategies to ensure players centre around Keepstar(s) for responsive fleet strategies.

So what you graph don't show is Keepstar to System ratio(s) and where Super Ratting vs Deaths, as when you centre around these qualitative points you begin to have a better understanding of actual player behaviour(s) and why "super nerf" is required.

You haven't argued this point, instead, you've taken a bad sample of data and said something like "My dog barks loudly, therefore Cars need to be nerfed"... how do these two points relate? and suppressing the virtual economy right now is simply an incentive to de-invest play-time in the game.

Three months from now lets look at player login(s) per hour and compare results, I'll predict you'll see a reduction based on this ongoing behaviour to sweep the ISK creation.

Effectively you're suffering from the same spiral Ultima Online suffered when it introduced the Black Dye Tub - You've created a butterfly effect and you're imho not self-ware yet.

But you'll do what you want anyway, and thankfully we have CSM's there to protect us from behaviours that aren't player favoured -.....right?

Advocates...where are they again?
Hafwolf
Krieg 7th Brigade
Darwinism.
#404 - 2017-06-09 14:11:21 UTC
I remember when I started playing that sanctums took 3 or 4 battleships to run in a fleet. Now I can solo a sanctum or heaven in an Ishtar or most cruisers. Up the NPC stats not take down the ship stats.
ALUCARD 1208
Did he say Jump
#405 - 2017-06-09 14:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
CCP your new cash cow of extractors and injectors have caused this before them there was a natural progression as people trained into things.

Now we have your little baby and anyone can be in anything whenever they want, whatever becomes the highest isk source in game people will just extract and inject into or make alts and inject them to that.

The above is probably what you want to milk the already dwindling player base even more before the lights go out please get rid of the cancer guys like:-

Sean Decker- VP and ex EA
Maria Sayans- Marketing exec and ex EA

since you have been taking on ex EA employees the game has gone to **** with so many micro transactions and nerfs to people incomes to try and force them to buy more plex with $$$ than with isk.
And before the people who jump in say well hurr durr people have already paid ccp with the plex your paying isk for, yes this is true but if noone can achieve the isk/farm thats needed to do this its extra money in ccps pocket when they buy a a sub.

It also kills the plex market in game and people will be stuck with plex noone wants to buy because they are paying for there account now as the grind is too much
Panther X
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#406 - 2017-06-09 14:12:40 UTC
CCP, if you are concerned with the money in the game, take the money away, don't mess with the revenue stream. Sheesh cut off our heads to cure a hangnail.

Tax our income appropriately to our income levels, that's one way to keep balance.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Fl4chz4ng3
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#407 - 2017-06-09 14:13:30 UTC
If i told you that making more money in null-sec is allowing me to have more accounts?

More accounts means more plex used
More plex used means more money for you

You nerf the hell out of ratting with capital you lost at least 2 accounts

BTW you should change the forum section name "feature" is not really accurate...

Fl4
Total Newbie
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#408 - 2017-06-09 14:14:32 UTC
Mossyblog Barnes wrote:
Imho you're basing a lot of bad product management decisions of quantitative metrics. If you bothered to look at this more holistically you'd likely rationalise the events of income increases to be more focused on a number of contributing events - specifically microtransaction(s).

The Paradox of Thrift comes to mind here where you apparently aren't really factoring in player behaviours (qualitative). Some alliances and coalitions are right now actually coming out from under a "hoarding" behaviour, whereby they have been for the better part of month instructing members to "Krabbing" in order to get ready for larger PVP content next month.

Further to this, you have issues around CCP's introduction to microtransaction behaviour such as PLEX. This, in turn, has created a serious impact on the Eve economy on all product line(s). Moreover to the point the skill injector changes, in turn, has pushed pricing out further.

So now when you look at the said graph you've got a number of contributing variables that result in players likely more focused on PVE has given that's a likely easier route to liquidity in ISK which in turn feeds the aforementioned points (cause and effect).

Subtle effects introduced by CCP also IMHO hint strongly that you folks are opting towards removing the "Plex to Play" instead of heading towards "Pay to play". Things like selling Plex in a bundle of 240 via player purchases but then selling content such as skins for 250. You're effectively goading your player base to over buy in order to purchase, so either a player pays for the 500 ISK bundle or they pay 240 and 100 resulting in a 90 remainder. Its a form of economic affordance that's obviously similar to retail channels who put in place "minimum spend" targets on consumers.

The point I'm making is it's obvious you're attempting to draw further income from your player base in order to offset whatever investments you may be having as a company in either Eve Online or other product lines you're making.

Here's the reality though, you're not growing your market share at the moment and with these ongoing changes in passive income you're imposing a negative effect on the existing market share you have (therefore likely replenishing the market is less inclined).

Rorq mining is volatile at the moment due to anxiety about its changes (see 'Excavator' Mining Drone pricing indicative of its anxiety). Given your max reality for a Rorqual, a miner is approx 150m ISK per hour you in turn as a player may seek an alternative stream - in this case Super Ratting. De-invest in the Mining and re-invest back into PVE, but your buy-in is around 24billion+ for said super. This, in turn, means you'd need to grind for a month or maybe two in order to pay that investment back before you actually generate positive ISK.

Factor in now the risk(s) associated with super rating which is quite high, you've now got to then focus in around how larger corporation/alliances/coalitions protect their members within systems. In doing this they, in turn, localise their deployment strategies to ensure players centre around Keepstar(s) for responsive fleet strategies.

So what you graph don't show is Keepstar to System ratio(s) and where Super Ratting vs Deaths, as when you centre around these qualitative points you begin to have a better understanding of actual player behaviour(s) and why "super nerf" is required.

You haven't argued this point, instead, you've taken a bad sample of data and said something like "My dog barks loudly, therefore Cars need to be nerfed"... how do these two points relate? and suppressing the virtual economy right now is simply an incentive to de-invest play-time in the game.

Three months from now lets look at player login(s) per hour and compare results, I'll predict you'll see a reduction based on this ongoing behaviour to sweep the ISK creation.

Effectively you're suffering from the same spiral Ultima Online suffered when it introduced the Black Dye Tub - You've created a butterfly effect and you're imho not self-ware yet.

But you'll do what you want anyway, and thankfully we have CSM's there to protect us from behaviours that aren't player favoured -.....right?

Advocates...where are they again?


Pretty damn good. Wouldn't it also be simple to take the materiel requirement to build something and increase it? Make the materials for building (minerals and reactions) far greater?
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#409 - 2017-06-09 14:14:39 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:

And before the people who jump in say well hurr durr people have already paid ccp with the plex your paying isk for, yes this is true but if noone can achieve the isk/farm thats needed to do this its extra money in ccps pocket when they buy a a sub.


PLEX price will always adjust to what people can or want to pay for them in ISK.
Ezio Sotken
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#410 - 2017-06-09 14:15:27 UTC
I decided to do some quick math.

My current thanatos for ratting does 2883.7 DPS as shown ingame. With a 20% drop, I expect that DPS number to fall to 2306 or there about.

Also, my average tick is just shy of 50 mil. I expect to see average ticks of 40 mil. Combine that with a corp tax of 12.5%, I am looking at about 36.8 mil average ticks after taxes. That is just BARELY better than a ishtar. So, I now ask myself, what is the point?

I have perfect ishtar skills already, so why bother with a almost perfect carrier anymore? IMO Waste of skillpoints and time getting ot Fighters V, and I have Gall CArrier V half done.
Burberry Muffin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#411 - 2017-06-09 14:17:54 UTC
If this changes pass, i will unsub and extract my 4acounts. Im done!
Im fcking serious. Ill gave a lot love, money, and time to fly capitals.


howght!
Elliott Spitzer
Sphincter Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#412 - 2017-06-09 14:18:12 UTC
The Judge wrote:
Not everyone will be happy with this change, but reducing NPC bounty payouts through a direct rebalance of carriers and supers is in the best interest of eve as a whole. Changing bounty payouts would hurt people ratting in every class of ship when carriers and supers are the main problem child. This is the best option I can see.

Keep up the great work.


So instead of pissing off 1/4 of nullsec players, let's **** off all of them?
FT Cold
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#413 - 2017-06-09 14:18:21 UTC
Awesome changes. A good step in the right direction.
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#414 - 2017-06-09 14:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Max Trix
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Dengdeng Xiao
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#415 - 2017-06-09 14:32:17 UTC
CCP, do you really think there is no bad affection about the multiple players using smartbomb ratting ? You are forcing players who only have one account to leave. Wish you living in your dreamland and have fun! I can't stand your stupid decision anymore.
rhiload Feron-drake
TURN LEFT
HYDRA RELOADED
#416 - 2017-06-09 14:32:53 UTC
im afraid your overestimating carriers/supers. they will not be strong as you think as they are now, its better to just increase the HP of the rats in havens and or decrease bounties. as you've seen in recent large scale fights, carriers dont win fights, dreads do, and this will be even more the case as dread dominance will prevail over any cap.
Niraia
Starcakes
#417 - 2017-06-09 14:34:44 UTC
rhiload Feron-drake wrote:
im afraid your overestimating carriers/supers. they will not be strong as you think as they are now, its better to just increase the HP of the rats in havens and or decrease bounties. as you've seen in recent large scale fights, carriers dont win fights, dreads do, and this will be even more the case as dread dominance will prevail over any cap.


This. Fixing missions was too hard? Maybe you need new developers.

Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#418 - 2017-06-09 14:35:29 UTC
I have no skin in this game as I'm not a carrier ratter, but it does seem like these are some pretty heavy-handed hits. Maybe instead have smaller reductions in damage, but further increase the rate at which fighters are targeted by rats, while also reducing the time between issuing commands.

Also, since there's concern about ISK faucets, Incursions remain a pretty significant source of ISK when compared to the number of people who run them and the relative degree of safety. Why not move 10% or so of the ISK payouts from Incursions into LP?
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#419 - 2017-06-09 14:35:48 UTC
rhiload Feron-drake wrote:
im afraid your overestimating carriers/supers. they will not be strong as you think as they are now, its better to just increase the HP of the rats in havens and or decrease bounties. as you've seen in recent large scale fights, carriers dont win fights, dreads do, and this will be even more the case as dread dominance will prevail over any cap.


So you're saying that it's better to screw over everyone who rats to make isk in EVe rather than fix the actual thing that fewer players do that is causing the problem?

CCP only needs to make a new mod for the game, call it a "vote retraction system" so I can have my vote back lol.
JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#420 - 2017-06-09 14:35:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:

And before the people who jump in say well hurr durr people have already paid ccp with the plex your paying isk for, yes this is true but if noone can achieve the isk/farm thats needed to do this its extra money in ccps pocket when they buy a a sub.


PLEX price will always adjust to what people can or want to pay for them in ISK.

yep which is .01 isk below premium for a hoarder