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[Summer] Pirate Battleship Cost Intervention

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Novor Drethan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2017-06-09 00:35:04 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Novor Drethan wrote:
Romvex wrote:
Querns wrote:
T-B0NE wrote:
So if you have a specific problem you want to address, then address it in a way that is specific to only that problem (AKA increase the mineral price of the ship or nerf the drop rate of the BPC). By nerfing escalation chances you effectively nerf EVERY module that comes from those escalations not just the BPC you are attempting to nerf.


Heaven forbid X-Type hardeners be an actual expense rather than an afterthought.


basically this, both pirate battleships and blue mods are too cheap for the benefit they provide

Should a 5% improvement come with a 500% increase in value?

I'd say that's too expensive for the benefit they provide.



No, as has been said, that is the way things should be. Certainly not the only one, but I remember using vindi's as a doctrine when they were still 1.3b/hull. That extra 5% we paid all the extra isk for helped us counter the much larger fleets of hostiles we would fight at the time. These days, everyone can afford a vindi, everyone uses (insert pirate BS) and everyone can make crap loads of isk in no time, so the extra 5% that used to have meaning, just doesn't anymore, because everyone uses it. The small skill/quality over quantity groups are pretty much almost all gone now, because everyone can afford to use the fits(or close enough) they could use anyway, AND bring crap loads more mans as well.

You're already paying more isk for faction ships and modules, so the question isn't whether they should be more expensive, but by how much.

Barghests are 700m right now, and no one uses them. Increase that to 1.4b, and still no one will use them. If you increase Machariels to 1.4b, people will still use them.

So the issue isn't the value of these ships, but the fact that they outclass every other hull their size.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2017-06-09 00:39:01 UTC
Novor Drethan wrote:

You're already paying more isk for faction ships and modules, so the question isn't whether they should be more expensive, but by how much.

Barghests are 700m right now, and no one uses them. Increase that to 1.4b, and still no one will use them. If you increase Machariels to 1.4b, people will still use them.

So the issue isn't the value of these ships, but the fact that they outclass every other hull their size.



Then it sounds like there is an issue with the barghest that needs that ship rebalanced. 1.4b for a Mach is a fair price, for everything that ship is capable of doing.



The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#103 - 2017-06-09 00:44:30 UTC
Pirate Battleships are supposed to be expensive.
Navy types are supposed to be more expensive than their non-navy counterparts

Why are people complaining about the price? are you dumb?

Like another poster already stated.
I feel all Faction ships should be obtained from their respective LP stores,
With that said, maybe adding in chips like for the Astero/Stratios/Nestor would be all right, but you still need for the most part to use the LP store.
You want the ships/prints, grind for them or have some one that likes doing that do it and pay them for it.
FFS where do you think a lot of those implants come from (crystals, slaves etc), or Barge BPO's (well most ORE gear)....
It comes from the LP stores and the people doing the PVE.
Imho, allowing for more diverse cultures on the PVE side of things will fuel the Combat PvP side of things.

Just think about it for a minute or two CCP, if you really want to balance the Playing Field here...quit allowing for these prints to drop in sites and let the Hunters/Prey do their little menagerie of dances for this.
Novor Drethan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2017-06-09 00:45:28 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Novor Drethan wrote:

You're already paying more isk for faction ships and modules, so the question isn't whether they should be more expensive, but by how much.

Barghests are 700m right now, and no one uses them. Increase that to 1.4b, and still no one will use them. If you increase Machariels to 1.4b, people will still use them.

So the issue isn't the value of these ships, but the fact that they outclass every other hull their size.



Then it sounds like there is an issue with the barghest that needs that ship rebalanced. 1.4b for a Mach is a fair price, for everything that ship is capable of doing.

It depends. Are you basing that 1.4b price tag off the fact that it's seeing such great usage? Because a great deal of that depends on void bombs being kept as oppressive as they currently are. If CCP nerfs void bombs, Machariels won't be nearly as great, and that 1.4b price tag then seems unreasonable because the practical value of the ship has dropped.
Ruby Gnollo
#105 - 2017-06-09 00:49:37 UTC
Hendrink Collie wrote:
Huydo wrote:
What do you think about make other Ships more viable for fleets than nerf it?


Power creep is bad. Blink


Just have so-called pirates behave abit smarter. Like, warpout with their loot when their fight is turning bad
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2017-06-09 00:50:23 UTC
Novor Drethan wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Novor Drethan wrote:

You're already paying more isk for faction ships and modules, so the question isn't whether they should be more expensive, but by how much.

Barghests are 700m right now, and no one uses them. Increase that to 1.4b, and still no one will use them. If you increase Machariels to 1.4b, people will still use them.

So the issue isn't the value of these ships, but the fact that they outclass every other hull their size.



Then it sounds like there is an issue with the barghest that needs that ship rebalanced. 1.4b for a Mach is a fair price, for everything that ship is capable of doing.

It depends. Are you basing that 1.4b price tag off the fact that it's seeing such great usage? Because a great deal of that depends on void bombs being kept as oppressive as they currently are. If CCP nerfs void bombs, Machariels won't be nearly as great, and that 1.4b price tag then seems unreasonable because the practical value of the ship has dropped.



No, I'm basing that on experience with the ship, it's strengths and weaknesses, and a time when the Evecosystem was more balanced between the small/large groups. Granted, I don't know if CCP is ever going to try to find a balance between large/small scale again, that isn't just summed up with 'well at least you got asset safety, right?', but before their prices started the downward dip they've been on until today, that is about where they were. Pirate BS still were purchased and used(the barghest wasn't around at the time), but they were not everywhere all the time. Also balancing one problem based on another problem isn't a good strategy.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Shaqil
Duck and Cover
#107 - 2017-06-09 01:09:21 UTC
Pirate BSs were fine for the price they were. CCP screwed it with BPC drop rates, now going to nerf bat them into oblivion. This is ridiculous.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#108 - 2017-06-09 01:17:19 UTC
Shaqil wrote:
Pirate BSs were fine for the price they were. CCP screwed it with BPC drop rates, now going to nerf bat them into oblivion. This is ridiculous.


again why are you crying?
they are not be nerfed, CCP is attempting re-initiate their high cost value....though i think this proposed method is flawed an nothing more than a bandaid on a wound that requires tourniquet and some stitches.
Shinji Katsuragi
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#109 - 2017-06-09 01:23:56 UTC
This is definitely NOT GOOD.
Helene Fidard
CTRL-Q
#110 - 2017-06-09 01:36:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Helene Fidard
Finally!

Now remove guided void bombs :)

Hey! I don't know about you

but I'm joining CTRL-Q
Vix Sparda
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#111 - 2017-06-09 02:14:30 UTC
heres an idea fozzie. stop doing anything.
Romvex
TURN LEFT
#112 - 2017-06-09 02:23:23 UTC
seems to be alot of unintelligent posters in here who can't understand how important this change is.
RedHand
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#113 - 2017-06-09 02:30:27 UTC
Thank you. Admittedly, I love pirate battleships and getting them for as cheap as they are, but they seem so easy to throw away for what's supposed to be a high impact ship.

Although, please don't **** with the Barghest's price too much, it's expensive compared to the rest already...
xXxNIMRODxXx
Arial Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#114 - 2017-06-09 02:43:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
MechaJeb Kerman wrote:
Trespasser wrote:
honestly i disagree with this approach.

I think a much better way would be to make pirate battleships use their faction components found in 0.0 data sites to build.

CCP can then control the drop rate of these components to increase or decrease the price as needed. This also removes the need to screw with any escalation or drop rate as the bottleneck to production will no longer be the amount of blueprints on the market, the bottleneck will be these components.


This would also finally make data sites worth doing as 99.9% of them are trash.



This. Make data sites great again. It's rather ridiculous that they drop on average 5 times less than Relic sites. Also, pretty sure SAAR BPC drop rates were improved, but after literally hundreds of data and relic sites I haven't seen a single one. A 1 run copy dropped from a random faction rat though.


This also, very good idea.




....this our only hope.
Mykale Kwijybow
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2017-06-09 03:23:54 UTC
I agree with the ideas posted here about making Data sites drop the BPCs or buying them from faction LP stores. The Data site idea brings Data sites back into relevance and the faction LP store idea allows CCP to control their value via LP costs which take time to farm.

"Give a man a bullet and he'll want a gun. Give a man a gun and he'll give away bullets"
RushRushRush Aishai
The Apache Foundation
#116 - 2017-06-09 03:37:26 UTC
i dont care what it changed
what i cared is:

THE CHANGE HAS BEEN LEAKED MORE THAN 10 DAYS

some pp bought hundreds of billions of bpc
now,its price maybe doubled

dont know how it leaked
but it happened
how could we stand this?!!
D'nara Atreidis
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2017-06-09 03:38:43 UTC  |  Edited by: D'nara Atreidis
Pirate battle ships are not cheap for many people.... nor are the useful DED space modules.... of course the stupid ones are cheap... but the better ones are 50 mill+ with some dang near 1 billion isk... The only people that pirate battle ships are cheap for are the same ones who will have the isk to buy them regardless of the changes.... Nerf their stats and you get the end goal which is to widen ship choice... dont make them the price of a freaking carrier
JC Mieyli
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#118 - 2017-06-09 04:34:54 UTC
putting impact on the economy and leak conspiracies to one side for a moment
i wanna talk about power levels of pirate bs
no one ever used to use bs for solo or small gang stuff because they are garbage
the fact people even use pirate bs in these roles tells us one thing
pirate bs are in the right place for where bs should be in terms of capability
all bs should be rebalanced to where pirate bs are now
because the pirate bs are the only bs that are in the right place
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#119 - 2017-06-09 05:12:51 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Coelus Kugisa wrote:
Hisec incursion tears will be extra salty.

I doubt they will care much. They have already flown pirate BS for years and can easily afford the increase cost in the hull.


Not to mention that a lot of incursioners are still flying their same hulls from years ago. Incursion pirate BSes don't die every day. Hell, some spent 1.2 to 1.5 bil ISK on their Vindi or Mach hull and are still using it to this day.

I hope some middleground between the cheap 300-400 mil ISK hulls of the past year and the 1.2 to 1.5 range can be found. Maybe the 600-900 range or so?

I've gotten into Marauders in the past year or two and as the pirate BS prices dropped and Marauders stayed relatively stable (I know, t2 ship production costs are fairly high, especially above the cruiser size), it's always struck me that that gap is too high. And yes, the Navy BS prices were, in some cases, nearly double their comparable pirate BS prices.

Sanity is cool. But please don't overcompensate the other way, CCP.
Lamajagarn McMyra
State War Academy
Caldari State
#120 - 2017-06-09 05:13:12 UTC
JC Mieyli wrote:
putting impact on the economy and leak conspiracies to one side for a moment
i wanna talk about power levels of pirate bs
no one ever used to use bs for solo or small gang stuff because they are garbage
the fact people even use pirate bs in these roles tells us one thing
pirate bs are in the right place for where bs should be in terms of capability
all bs should be rebalanced to where pirate bs are now
because the pirate bs are the only bs that are in the right place


Faction battleships are average now since pretty much everyone use them exclusively. Hell, put plat insurance on it and you're dealing with prices similar to t2 cruiser (2-400mil).

If t1 battleships were the norm, t1 would be considered okay and faction actually good.