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[Summer] Pirate Battleship Cost Intervention

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Author
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#81 - 2017-06-08 21:10:38 UTC
Vash Bloodstone wrote:
Something about this rubs me the wrong way.

I haven't played a lot recently, but why is this proliferation of pirate battleships considered a problem? Maybe someone can clarify for me?


Sure.

Quote:
Are there too many gangs of pirate battleships roaming around?


Gangs? Try mainline fleet doctrines. T1 and navy BS have been almost completely supplanted by pirate BS.

Do you really not see why that's a problem?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Rukia Taika
Allied Operations
Dead Heaven Syndicate
#82 - 2017-06-08 21:11:09 UTC
This is rather odd and unexpected by CCP but for some reason I am not surprised. A move in this direction does create some opportunities for the old and the new. I feel the goal is that CCP may be pushing for in a direction to create mining teams with build teams involved.

Sounds rather odd knowing how eve is when it comes to scamming and stabbing folks in the back at the last minute of things. But there are those rare groups that actually do what they say.

After all you need like 20 miners in hulks with a rorq are 3 and a booster to mine the rocks to build Capitals and Titans.

I see no problem with this other then the other thread where the Mining Anoms are getting hit with the nerf bat with respawn timers.

With all the changes that is coming this summer I feel CCP kshould be implementing it at the same time the mining arrays come out.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2017-06-08 21:23:23 UTC
I strongly advise against any kind of nerf to the escalation spawns. Escalations are a great content creator in this game as they make people do risky stuff which tends to lead to many kinds of interaction with other players.

Keep the changes to droprates and/ or required materials please.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#84 - 2017-06-08 21:25:20 UTC
Trespasser wrote:
honestly i disagree with this approach.

I think a much better way would be to make pirate battleships use their faction components found in 0.0 data sites to build.

CCP can then control the drop rate of these components to increase or decrease the price as needed. This also removes the need to screw with any escalation or drop rate as the bottleneck to production will no longer be the amount of blueprints on the market, the bottleneck will be these components.


This would also finally make data sites worth doing as 99.9% of them are trash.


This is an excellent suggestion.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

BrutalButFair
Almost Dangerous
Stranger Danger.
#85 - 2017-06-08 21:31:57 UTC
Will this ignite the return of the true Rooks and Kings?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#86 - 2017-06-08 21:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Gilbaron wrote:
I strongly advise against any kind of nerf to the escalation spawns. Escalations are a great content creator in this game as they make people do risky stuff which tends to lead to many kinds of interaction with other players.

Keep the changes to droprates and/ or required materials please.


I disagree. As someone who both runs escalations and sells escalations, they do not create much content. People tend to run the ones that are close to home and ignore the rest. They find safe travel methods to get to the escalations. It's practically impossible to become the victim of non-consensual PVP inside an escalation, because no one else can find it if you just warp out before they scan down your ship. And even if they do come inside to go after you, they cannot hotdrop on you inside the complex. In short, escalations are relatively risk free.

They need to drastically reduce the frequency of escalations. That will make exploration more viable. Then the upcoming T3 changes should increase the risk of people going out there to explore, which should further raise the value of the product.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rita Torres
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#87 - 2017-06-08 22:11:39 UTC
why dont u fix navy faction battleship or even standard battleships to be on par with other battleships. battleships in general are supposed to be powerful but not very many people use them anymore cause mach's are better.
Bromum Atom
Outplayed.
#88 - 2017-06-08 22:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bromum Atom
Pirate battleship by 50% of carrier cost? Who and why will by them? It's just another carriers bost!
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#89 - 2017-06-08 23:01:10 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Vash Bloodstone wrote:
Something about this rubs me the wrong way.

I haven't played a lot recently, but why is this proliferation of pirate battleships considered a problem? Maybe someone can clarify for me?


Sure.

Quote:
Are there too many gangs of pirate battleships roaming around?


Gangs? Try mainline fleet doctrines. T1 and navy BS have been almost completely supplanted by pirate BS.

Do you really not see why that's a problem?
T1 BS are shite in comparison, which IS the problem. If there was a viable alternative for the Mach it wouldn't automatically be the go to.

As for Navy versions, being LP based as soon as one sees more than average use the price goes up to match and demand will always outstrip supply. Napocs were a thing but got priced out of usefulness..

Making pirate ships cost more isn't going to "fix" any problems - Those who can afford them will still use them, those who can't or don't want to spend the extra will keep complaining - Devs will keep increasing costs and reducing supply until they once again become a rarely used niche class of ships.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#90 - 2017-06-08 23:13:31 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
I strongly advise against any kind of nerf to the escalation spawns. Escalations are a great content creator in this game as they make people do risky stuff which tends to lead to many kinds of interaction with other players.

Keep the changes to droprates and/ or required materials please.


I disagree. As someone who both runs escalations and sells escalations, they do not create much content. People tend to run the ones that are close to home and ignore the rest. They find safe travel methods to get to the escalations. It's practically impossible to become the victim of non-consensual PVP inside an escalation, because no one else can find it if you just warp out before they scan down your ship. And even if they do come inside to go after you, they cannot hotdrop on you inside the complex. In short, escalations are relatively risk free.

They need to drastically reduce the frequency of escalations. That will make exploration more viable. Then the upcoming T3 changes should increase the risk of people going out there to explore, which should further raise the value of the product.

Why would reducing the amount of escalations increase exploration?
Are pirate BS bpc's going to drop in data sites?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#91 - 2017-06-08 23:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
So the real question is are you going to rebalance/recalculate ALL pirate NPC ship build reqs incorporating the faction build mats that were introduced with the pirate caps(even though yes you'll have to add in new materials for subcaps and the pirate caps you haven't done yet), as you should, or just piecemeal it hope it works out?




Also, while we're at it, can we consider carrying this into the Navy stuff as well, with possible segway into caps, keeping consideration for *whether we decide the LP market is a good or bad thing that should go the way of the dodo*. I'd be just as excited about a Roden or Federation Moros as a Serpentis Moros.


*EDIT: because personally I'd rather see the LP market go as well, though I don't have a super great idea for replacing it.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
Drifters Stole My Local
#92 - 2017-06-08 23:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Galente
Sgt Ocker wrote:


Making pirate ships cost more isn't going to "fix" any problems - Those who can afford them will still use them



Am I correct in saying that you think a massive price increase of 2-3x current prices is going to result in the number of people "who can afford them" remaining approximately the same? Because if that's indeed what you think, you're insane. And if that's not what you meant, then the change has meaning and you don't really have a point.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

FearlessLittleToaster
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2017-06-08 23:47:58 UTC
As an (ex) explorer I have to say the change to escalations doesn't make me sad. I did exploration as my sole PvE activity from 2010 until early this year. The thrill of running gate camps, scouting with an alt, and the big find where one site paid for Eve for a month on a good drop was really the hook that got me into Eve. I liked it so much I've written articles about it, taught classes to Goons on it, and held it up as the right balance between risk and reward to anyone who asked. And, as of the start of the year, drops from anom escalations devalued the rewards to much they drove me out of it.

I tried like hell to keep going too. I figured out site spawn theory and started exploring in dangerous areas where others weren't brave enough to go since that got me more sites. I went from two alts to four, from a couple T1 battleships to three spider tanking Domis to three bling-fit rattlesnakes to three sins and a covops-cyno/prober scout to get more efficient at finding sweet sweet deadspace sites. But the value of the drops just kept going down. In the end, even with the sins running sites almost non-stop and the scout doing archeology the whole time, it just didn't pay anymore.

There is more Isk and less risk in almost any other PvE activity, to include active anom ratting in a carrier or faction battleship... and selling the escalations to a site running service. And yes, I could have just bought sites, but it wasn't grinding out 10/10s all day I really loved. It was moving between systems, running sites in hostile space with a red in local and daring them to come in and get me, it was the finding of a system crammed full of signatures after working out where others explored and daring to go where they wouldn't.

As an explorer who misses the PvE that made Eve awesome every minute I sit on rocks and watch my drones grind out spod, I support these changes. I actually have more Isk now, but earning is is a lot less fun. So maybe this change will do a bit to save nullsec exploration from being devalued into the new belt ratting. I can only hope.

Draqolas Windfury
C8N8O16
Goonswarm Federation
#94 - 2017-06-08 23:48:36 UTC
Just another "brillant" CCP idea.
Make something bad even worse.
Bhaalgorn BPC prize have just rised from 70m to 300m!!
CCP congrats.
Soon machariel hull 1b.
I think it will be cheaper to swap for carriers Big smile
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#95 - 2017-06-08 23:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Sgt Ocker wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Vash Bloodstone wrote:
Something about this rubs me the wrong way.

I haven't played a lot recently, but why is this proliferation of pirate battleships considered a problem? Maybe someone can clarify for me?


Sure.

Quote:
Are there too many gangs of pirate battleships roaming around?


Gangs? Try mainline fleet doctrines. T1 and navy BS have been almost completely supplanted by pirate BS.

Do you really not see why that's a problem?
T1 BS are shite in comparison, which IS the problem. If there was a viable alternative for the Mach it wouldn't automatically be the go to.

As for Navy versions, being LP based as soon as one sees more than average use the price goes up to match and demand will always outstrip supply. Napocs were a thing but got priced out of usefulness..

Making pirate ships cost more isn't going to "fix" any problems - Those who can afford them will still use them, those who can't or don't want to spend the extra will keep complaining - Devs will keep increasing costs and reducing supply until they once again become a rarely used niche class of ships.




It's supposed to be the case that those who can afford/feel they're worth it use them. Those who don't will use something cheaper. That isn't a problem, especially when the general premise is linear power gains for exponential increases in cost.

The problem is that, right now, the list of people who can afford them and feel they're worth it is... basically everyone, because the pricing, at present, offers linear power gains for linear increases in cost.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Ebony Texas
Un4seen Development
Sev3rance
#96 - 2017-06-08 23:58:51 UTC
Grenouile wrote:
How about you nerf Citadels first?



bullchit.. citadels above all needs to be given proper bonus..\

fozzie how about you just remove or update a fortizar's freaking point defenses and citadel's overall defenses!... the fighters are a fawking joke!
Novor Drethan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2017-06-09 00:06:39 UTC
Romvex wrote:
Querns wrote:
T-B0NE wrote:
So if you have a specific problem you want to address, then address it in a way that is specific to only that problem (AKA increase the mineral price of the ship or nerf the drop rate of the BPC). By nerfing escalation chances you effectively nerf EVERY module that comes from those escalations not just the BPC you are attempting to nerf.


Heaven forbid X-Type hardeners be an actual expense rather than an afterthought.


basically this, both pirate battleships and blue mods are too cheap for the benefit they provide

Should a 5% improvement come with a 500% increase in value?

I'd say that's too expensive for the benefit they provide.
Vash Bloodstone
Perkone
Caldari State
#98 - 2017-06-09 00:11:59 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Sure.

Gangs? Try mainline fleet doctrines. T1 and navy BS have been almost completely supplanted by pirate BS.

Do you really not see why that's a problem?




There's two problems here I think. 1.) One is that just increasing the cost of Pirate Battleships won't solve the fundamental problem. 2). This issue is mostly being looked at from a PvP perspective and ignoring any PvE issues.


What I suggest is that CCP come up with a way to counter a fleet of Pirate Battleships. I've always thought that being apart of a large fleet was OP. I think there needs to be more ways to counter this. Currently, In my opinion, you can either bring in more ships to counter a big fleet of Pirate BS or maybe you can try to use stealth bombers. Of course, this actually requires creative work and intelligence. I might suggest something like a new ship, a Cruiser sized Stealth bomber that can shoot multiple bombs? Could this counter Pirate Battleships? How about large mines that only blow up when it detects a BS or larger? Its just one idea, the point is, this would represent an actual attempt to balance the game, instead of trying to micromanage the economy or other similar schemes. (that won't work) Players are very adaptive, people will find a way around this, you'll only annoy them, which will ultimately decrease satisfaction and make the game less fun.

Also, I know most won't care but increasing the cost of Pirate Battleship could hurt PvE a lot. Pirate BS are big in pve, i believe, and this will hurt those guys a lot more than those who just go for pvp. You have more options in PVP, but a lot of pve content benefits tremendously from being able to use pirate bs.




Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2017-06-09 00:15:39 UTC
Novor Drethan wrote:
Romvex wrote:
Querns wrote:
T-B0NE wrote:
So if you have a specific problem you want to address, then address it in a way that is specific to only that problem (AKA increase the mineral price of the ship or nerf the drop rate of the BPC). By nerfing escalation chances you effectively nerf EVERY module that comes from those escalations not just the BPC you are attempting to nerf.


Heaven forbid X-Type hardeners be an actual expense rather than an afterthought.


basically this, both pirate battleships and blue mods are too cheap for the benefit they provide

Should a 5% improvement come with a 500% increase in value?

I'd say that's too expensive for the benefit they provide.


that's the way eve always has been and always should be.
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#100 - 2017-06-09 00:27:13 UTC
Novor Drethan wrote:
Romvex wrote:
Querns wrote:
T-B0NE wrote:
So if you have a specific problem you want to address, then address it in a way that is specific to only that problem (AKA increase the mineral price of the ship or nerf the drop rate of the BPC). By nerfing escalation chances you effectively nerf EVERY module that comes from those escalations not just the BPC you are attempting to nerf.


Heaven forbid X-Type hardeners be an actual expense rather than an afterthought.


basically this, both pirate battleships and blue mods are too cheap for the benefit they provide

Should a 5% improvement come with a 500% increase in value?

I'd say that's too expensive for the benefit they provide.



No, as has been said, that is the way things should be. Certainly not the only one, but I remember using vindi's as a doctrine when they were still 1.3b/hull. That extra 5% we paid all the extra isk for helped us counter the much larger fleets of hostiles we would fight at the time. These days, everyone can afford a vindi, everyone uses (insert pirate BS) and everyone can make crap loads of isk in no time, so the extra 5% that used to have meaning, just doesn't anymore, because everyone uses it. The small skill/quality over quantity groups are pretty much almost all gone now, because everyone can afford to use the fits(or close enough) they could use anyway, AND bring crap loads more mans as well.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal