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Scripts are needless busywork

Author
Lothros Andastar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2017-06-08 17:50:59 UTC
Ewar scripts are a kludge solution and managing the different ammo types is frankly a pain. The script size is neglible so can we please just have scriptable modules have modes rather than physically requiring the scripts in cargo?
grgjegb gergerg
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2017-06-08 18:43:10 UTC
I totally agree. Every scriptable module should just have modes. Carrying around different modes in cargo, just to have them there, what does it accomplish? It doesn't take (significant) cargo space like laser or miner crystals, it's just busywork to grab some and load them.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2017-06-08 19:28:13 UTC
Completely agree. All it does is compound the "**** I forgot ammo" problem. Or the "here's a fit for XYZ, okay lets undock." ... "yo dude this fit doesn't have any ammo...brb..."

I suspect there's probably a technical limitation which requires it, however.
Lothros Andastar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2017-06-08 19:30:32 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Completely agree. All it does is compound the "**** I forgot ammo" problem. Or the "here's a fit for XYZ, okay lets undock." ... "yo dude this fit doesn't have any ammo...brb..."

I suspect there's probably a technical limitation which requires it, however.

Ah, yes, Legacy Code.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2017-06-08 20:04:46 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Completely agree. All it does is compound the "**** I forgot ammo" problem. Or the "here's a fit for XYZ, okay lets undock." ... "yo dude this fit doesn't have any ammo...brb..."

I suspect there's probably a technical limitation which requires it, however.


Well there is no "mode of operation" on any modules so script really are "T1 laser ammo" for them that have modifiers to the relevant stats.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#6 - 2017-06-08 20:11:00 UTC
nope. not only is there a lot of trade and isk made with these (not just a combat game) when you are out in areas that hubs are not easy to get to it forces compromise and adapting to situations. scrips are not used up like ammo but they are lost as ships die and this can leave a group without enough of some scripts to field the set up they want ideally.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2017-06-08 21:23:20 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
Completely agree. All it does is compound the "**** I forgot ammo" problem. Or the "here's a fit for XYZ, okay lets undock." ... "yo dude this fit doesn't have any ammo...brb..."

I suspect there's probably a technical limitation which requires it, however.


Well there is no "mode of operation" on any modules so script really are "T1 laser ammo" for them that have modifiers to the relevant stats.

T3Ds have modes with different effects to switch between. If a ship can have them then a module should be able to get them too, this doesn't seem like a big difference.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.

Lothros Andastar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2017-06-08 21:27:44 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
nope. not only is there a lot of trade and isk made with these (not just a combat game) when you are out in areas that hubs are not easy to get to it forces compromise and adapting to situations. scrips are not used up like ammo but they are lost as ships die and this can leave a group without enough of some scripts to field the set up they want ideally.

By that logic we should make T1 Lasers use normal ammo.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#9 - 2017-06-08 21:55:33 UTC
Lothros Andastar wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
nope. not only is there a lot of trade and isk made with these (not just a combat game) when you are out in areas that hubs are not easy to get to it forces compromise and adapting to situations. scrips are not used up like ammo but they are lost as ships die and this can leave a group without enough of some scripts to field the set up they want ideally.

By that logic we should make T1 Lasers use normal ammo.


explain
Lugh Crow-Slave
#10 - 2017-06-08 21:57:24 UTC
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
Completely agree. All it does is compound the "**** I forgot ammo" problem. Or the "here's a fit for XYZ, okay lets undock." ... "yo dude this fit doesn't have any ammo...brb..."

I suspect there's probably a technical limitation which requires it, however.


Well there is no "mode of operation" on any modules so script really are "T1 laser ammo" for them that have modifiers to the relevant stats.

T3Ds have modes with different effects to switch between. If a ship can have them then a module should be able to get them too, this doesn't seem like a big difference.



that's not how code works


however they could simply "trick" the mod into thinking it had scripts in the cargo hold. not the cleanest way but at the very least should remove "it can't be done" from the topic
Cade Windstalker
#11 - 2017-06-08 22:29:31 UTC
Scripts are absolutely a hack from back when Eve was created to allow the modules to function, but I'm not sure it's worth the time and effort that would be required to remove them.

There's a small mountain of legacy code that assumes Scripts exist, and we've all seen how much fun ripping out old systems from the Eve codebase is, for both the players and CCP. On top of that it does have one benefit as a useful way of communicating information to the player about how the module being scripted is going to be modified. This could probably be added to the modules but it would likely be a subsection or something at least at first, and adding it in some other way would require additional work.

In short, while I agree that there's little point to Scripts in terms of gameplay I'm really not sure that it's worth the code and UI work that would be required to remove them in a way that doesn't actually result in worse overall gameplay compared to dealing with cheap low-cargo-space items instead.
Cade Windstalker
#12 - 2017-06-08 22:32:29 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Lothros Andastar wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
nope. not only is there a lot of trade and isk made with these (not just a combat game) when you are out in areas that hubs are not easy to get to it forces compromise and adapting to situations. scrips are not used up like ammo but they are lost as ships die and this can leave a group without enough of some scripts to field the set up they want ideally.

By that logic we should make T1 Lasers use normal ammo.


explain


I think he's saying that T1 Crystals work in a very similar manner, in that they're 1m3 ammo that only functions to change the stats of the module they're used with.

The one reason I disagree with this is that you need way more of them than you need Scripts and there are far more options, to the point that a Frigate can end up using up significant cargo space on T1 Crystals if they want every available option.

On top of that T1 guns still have Faction Ammo which has durability, and it doesn't make a lot of sense from a UI, coding, and player perspective for Lasers to only use ammo when it's something that degrades.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2017-06-08 23:03:26 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Lothros Andastar wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
nope. not only is there a lot of trade and isk made with these (not just a combat game) when you are out in areas that hubs are not easy to get to it forces compromise and adapting to situations. scrips are not used up like ammo but they are lost as ships die and this can leave a group without enough of some scripts to field the set up they want ideally.

By that logic we should make T1 Lasers use normal ammo.


explain


I think he's saying that T1 Crystals work in a very similar manner, in that they're 1m3 ammo that only functions to change the stats of the module they're used with.

The one reason I disagree with this is that you need way more of them than you need Scripts and there are far more options, to the point that a Frigate can end up using up significant cargo space on T1 Crystals if they want every available option.

On top of that T1 guns still have Faction Ammo which has durability, and it doesn't make a lot of sense from a UI, coding, and player perspective for Lasers to only use ammo when it's something that degrades.



that's what i thought he said too. but that doesn't follow with what i wrote. that is why i'm confused
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#14 - 2017-06-08 23:42:25 UTC
Make ewar scripts consumable items like fleet boost charges.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#15 - 2017-06-09 01:14:43 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Make ewar scripts consumable items like fleet boost charges.


Ugh, no.
the script is simply telling your module to utilize all of 1 ability/benefit (computer script)
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#16 - 2017-06-09 04:22:47 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Make ewar scripts consumable items like fleet boost charges.


Ugh, no.
the script is simply telling your module to utilize all of 1 ability/benefit (computer script)

I know what it is. I know that it's just lore made up to explain the mechanics.

For the record, I do agree that it's pretty crap to lose 0.1 m3 cargo space for something permanent like a script. I also don't want to remove a part of the economy. That's why I think it should be given the Command Burst treatment.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#17 - 2017-06-09 04:27:41 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Make ewar scripts consumable items like fleet boost charges.


Ugh, no.
the script is simply telling your module to utilize all of 1 ability/benefit (computer script)

I know what it is. I know that it's just lore made up to explain the mechanics.

For the record, I do agree that it's pretty crap to lose 0.1 m3 cargo space for something permanent like a script. I also don't want to remove a part of the economy. That's why I think it should be given the Command Burst treatment.


well to be honest, structure blocks went the way of a brain fart........and CCP wanted more ways to eat up ice products....not a bad idea...but command bursts should maybe have been ammoless...idk
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#18 - 2017-06-09 09:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Lothros Andastar wrote:
Ewar scripts are a kludge solution and managing the different ammo types is frankly a pain. The script size is neglible so can we please just have scriptable modules have modes rather than physically requiring the scripts in cargo?

To add to this: The scrips' size is actually not negligible. They are 1 m³ each, which costs a lot of space for a near worthless item for instance for logistics guys. Save for crystals, every other ammo is a quarter down to a tenth of that.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Commander IceQ
Wet Soap Guard
#19 - 2017-06-09 10:57:12 UTC
This would remove a minor annoyance. I have forgotten scripts before, and probably will again. I suppose this will be a nice QoL chance more than anything else.

I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.

Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2017-06-09 11:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dior Ambraelle
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Dior Ambraelle wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Old Pervert wrote:
Completely agree. All it does is compound the "**** I forgot ammo" problem. Or the "here's a fit for XYZ, okay lets undock." ... "yo dude this fit doesn't have any ammo...brb..."

I suspect there's probably a technical limitation which requires it, however.


Well there is no "mode of operation" on any modules so script really are "T1 laser ammo" for them that have modifiers to the relevant stats.

T3Ds have modes with different effects to switch between. If a ship can have them then a module should be able to get them too, this doesn't seem like a big difference.



that's not how code works


however they could simply "trick" the mod into thinking it had scripts in the cargo hold. not the cleanest way but at the very least should remove "it can't be done" from the topic

Well, I don't know how the code looks like in this game, so I can only guess here.

In coding an object is an object. It can have several stats, one of them is either "can fit other objects" or "can be fit into other objects" and in the case of scripted modules - and weapons, ancillary modules, capacitor boosters, etc - probably both. Each of these modules currently have 1 slot to fit another object that changes the way they work.
The T3Ds mode shifting has a cooldown timer, so by mechanic, I think it's actually pre-fitted with 3 modules we never see, where activating one of them deactivates the others.

If I'm right about this then it really shouldn't be hard to remove the script items, while keeping all script options.

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.