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Time for the CSM to be Old Yellered

First post
Author
Jin'taan
Pentag Blade
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#61 - 2017-03-08 13:17:31 UTC
Social Injustice Warrior wrote:
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
Given that CSM input was most certainly listened to in regards to citadels/ECs and the mining changes I think they are most certainly still quite useful. Citadels have been probably the biggest change to the game in recent years and have opened up all sorts of new gameplay possibilities and content generation, the mining changes have also been a major source of content (usually in the form of shiny Rorqual killmails :) )



Bingo, you just showed exactly why the CSM does not need to exist. The CSM paved to way to promote a certain type of game style. PVP is wonderful. But so is mining and missioning. PVP should of course sometime be non consensual. War declarations, ganking and other issues. But now EVE via the CSM has decided to give a competitive advantage to larger players and group play beyond market forces. As the EVE subscription numbers continue to freefall I understand EVE ONLINE'S desperate bid to retain and recruit players.

EVE ONLINE needs professional management . EVE ONLINE does not need a bunch of well meaning amateurs getting in the way. EVE needs to build new missions, new stories that promote fantasy and enjoyment. Creating and to promote player bosses to pay homage too ( CSM members) does not encourage working people to want to check out EVE. Let me boiled it down some more. Most people log on EVE ONLINE to escape their boss infested lives! Now I forced to join up with a large group so I have a fighting chance to enjoy EVE???? So then new plaers can be BOSSSED around by 20 something ???? Are you seriously??? You want people to pay to bossed around????

I have multiple industrial toons that have now been exposed as suckers. Really glad I spent all that time just to watch it all be snipped away by the CSM. The subscription numbers have shown I am not alone as people terminal log off forever.

I call upon EVE ONLINE to take charge and rebuild their product. New missions, new ships and new objectives are far more needed then worrying about entertaining the CSM !!!! I call upon EVE ONLINE to take the entire CSM concept to the players. I would vote if an option would be NO MORE CSM!!!! The CSM was created in response to a player called Klugsman cheating with a CCP employee. Klugsman clearly wanted an advantage just like the CSM!

Clear away the old guard and put the individual player and give the creative juices of CCP that created EVE back in charge.


It is managed by CCP. We just advise on changes regarding certain things, for example the way rigs/tax operate on Engineering Complexes, rather than saying "CCP you need to do Engineering Complexes this way". If you'd like to actively point out ways in which something that is negatively impacting your game experience, you're welcome to elaborate on them and provide actual constructive feedback.

Or you can just post with massive amounts of superfluous exclamation marks and question marks and engage in the lowest form of outrage sophistry that you can muster and I'll completely ignore you.


Also, we have advised about PvE in general as well, in fact if you had bothered to read the minutes from the first summit, you'd have noted that social/group PvE was top of all of our lists for things we felt needed to be improved or added to the game, as we feel being able to make money with your friends is a key point that has been missing in EvE for a long time.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#62 - 2017-03-08 14:02:45 UTC
Jin'taan wrote:
Social Injustice Warrior wrote:
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
Given that CSM input was most certainly listened to in regards to citadels/ECs and the mining changes I think they are most certainly still quite useful. Citadels have been probably the biggest change to the game in recent years and have opened up all sorts of new gameplay possibilities and content generation, the mining changes have also been a major source of content (usually in the form of shiny Rorqual killmails :) )



Bingo, you just showed exactly why the CSM does not need to exist. The CSM paved to way to promote a certain type of game style. PVP is wonderful. But so is mining and missioning. PVP should of course sometime be non consensual. War declarations, ganking and other issues. But now EVE via the CSM has decided to give a competitive advantage to larger players and group play beyond market forces. As the EVE subscription numbers continue to freefall I understand EVE ONLINE'S desperate bid to retain and recruit players.

EVE ONLINE needs professional management . EVE ONLINE does not need a bunch of well meaning amateurs getting in the way. EVE needs to build new missions, new stories that promote fantasy and enjoyment. Creating and to promote player bosses to pay homage too ( CSM members) does not encourage working people to want to check out EVE. Let me boiled it down some more. Most people log on EVE ONLINE to escape their boss infested lives! Now I forced to join up with a large group so I have a fighting chance to enjoy EVE???? So then new plaers can be BOSSSED around by 20 something ???? Are you seriously??? You want people to pay to bossed around????

I have multiple industrial toons that have now been exposed as suckers. Really glad I spent all that time just to watch it all be snipped away by the CSM. The subscription numbers have shown I am not alone as people terminal log off forever.

I call upon EVE ONLINE to take charge and rebuild their product. New missions, new ships and new objectives are far more needed then worrying about entertaining the CSM !!!! I call upon EVE ONLINE to take the entire CSM concept to the players. I would vote if an option would be NO MORE CSM!!!! The CSM was created in response to a player called Klugsman cheating with a CCP employee. Klugsman clearly wanted an advantage just like the CSM!

Clear away the old guard and put the individual player and give the creative juices of CCP that created EVE back in charge.


It is managed by CCP. We just advise on changes regarding certain things, for example the way rigs/tax operate on Engineering Complexes, rather than saying "CCP you need to do Engineering Complexes this way". If you'd like to actively point out ways in which something that is negatively impacting your game experience, you're welcome to elaborate on them and provide actual constructive feedback.

Or you can just post with massive amounts of superfluous exclamation marks and question marks and engage in the lowest form of outrage sophistry that you can muster and I'll completely ignore you.


Also, we have advised about PvE in general as well, in fact if you had bothered to read the minutes from the first summit, you'd have noted that social/group PvE was top of all of our lists for things we felt needed to be improved or added to the game, as we feel being able to make money with your friends is a key point that has been missing in EvE for a long time.



I think you may be missing his point. Friendships take time. Lots of people don't have the time to maintain lots of couter game friendships. Lots of people just want to play a game for a few hours a week. By forcing social aspects you are forcing a time commitment many players just don't have. Of course those on the csm have that time or they wouldn't be on the csm. Hence the disconnect. Csm recommends things that generally requires group play when much of the player base doesn't have time to really commit to a game in that way. Csm can say what they want to have happen but they - by the very fact that they can commit to making eve a part time job for a year are in a very different place than most players. They are just pulling eve further from a place where it can appeal to more people.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Social Injustice Warrior
Banksters Ganksters of Mars
#63 - 2017-03-08 14:15:50 UTC
Agreed, Eve is more enjoyable with friends. Your comment about how you can completely ignore me is amusing to me. It also exposes the CSM agenda. To be in charge of something. Sir, I do not pay you to improve my EVE experience. Your statement that CSM has been pushing EVE ONLINE for more PVE is fascinating. Missions are usually done solo. The CSM cannot stand solo players. IT basically eliminates the power they crave. I cannot help but think CCP was not distracted by the CSM CCP would have time to create more missions. Perhaps even some kind of randomizer to make them more challenging.

At the end of the day less than 20% of the players vote! Clearly for all the whooey about the CSM most rank and file EVE players want to ignore you as much as me. I have learned in REAL LIFE if you want to get a business attention you vote with your gold! Remove the gold and I promise you the business will make changes to bring you back. I still think real game designing professionals have a better chance at fixing EVE then a bunch of self agenda driven well meaning amateurs.

My only real suggestion is put the concept of the CSM up to a vote from the GOLD paying customers? If the results are to continue with the CSM so be it. I am ok with majority rule! I just think most will vote to cancel the CSM lower the financial pressure on CCP. In my real life workplace I have always found asking the customer directly what is wrong is more revealing then the loudest mouth screaming about their opinion of what is wrong.
Jin'taan
Pentag Blade
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#64 - 2017-03-08 14:56:28 UTC
Social Injustice Warrior wrote:
Agreed, Eve is more enjoyable with friends. Your comment about how you can completely ignore me is amusing to me. It also exposes the CSM agenda. To be in charge of something. Sir, I do not pay you to improve my EVE experience. Your statement that CSM has been pushing EVE ONLINE for more PVE is fascinating. Missions are usually done solo. The CSM cannot stand solo players. IT basically eliminates the power they crave. I cannot help but think CCP was not distracted by the CSM CCP would have time to create more missions. Perhaps even some kind of randomizer to make them more challenging.

At the end of the day less than 20% of the players vote! Clearly for all the whooey about the CSM most rank and file EVE players want to ignore you as much as me. I have learned in REAL LIFE if you want to get a business attention you vote with your gold! Remove the gold and I promise you the business will make changes to bring you back. I still think real game designing professionals have a better chance at fixing EVE then a bunch of self agenda driven well meaning amateurs.

My only real suggestion is put the concept of the CSM up to a vote from the GOLD paying customers? If the results are to continue with the CSM so be it. I am ok with majority rule! I just think most will vote to cancel the CSM lower the financial pressure on CCP. In my real life workplace I have always found asking the customer directly what is wrong is more revealing then the loudest mouth screaming about their opinion of what is wrong.


So, your argument is that because we raise issues that the playerbase in general has with existing mechanics to the people who own those mechanics and work on it, these people (who are not PvE designers) can't make PvE content that they can't produce anyway, and as such we're reducing the amount of fun that those who are in your playstyle can have?

At the end of the day, we are not game designers, never have been, never will be, and don't intend to be. We bring feedback to CCP that we hear from all players. In fact, I held a PvE Townhall specifically to bring PvE related concerns to the PvE teams in CCP.
Social Injustice Warrior
Banksters Ganksters of Mars
#65 - 2017-03-09 01:49:12 UTC
Sir I apologize for the tone of my letter. I respect the CSM effort. I am certain you are a good man.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2017-03-17 17:30:10 UTC
The Judge wrote:


I'd love to list the things we have discussed at length with CCP that have or haven't made it into the game, or are still works in progress, but you know... that pesky NDA. The community will never know 95% of what the CSM has worked on with CCP, and in all honesty, that's the benefit CCP gets out of it. We filter out the static of 1000 voices and condense that down to a workable list of concerns and ideas. CCP clearly finds value in the CSM, otherwise they wouldn't be flying this CSM out in full force (yes, all 14) a second time in one term. Unless you have been on the CSM, or work with CCP, who are you to make any comment on influence? I'd only dared to dream about having so much meaningful discussion with devs prior to being elected. But again, I can't exactly copy pasta things to make you think differently can I? That NDA and all.



I wish CCP would allow the CSM members to more openly share what was discussed because right now, this 95% really does fly under the radar so the "We work hard with CCP" comments are essentially backed up by void. I'm not saying I think you do nothing but maybe bringing the idea to CCP to give a bit of slack on some NDA stuff so the player base might see a bit more what is happening.

As for the platform of communication, the effective sprawling of info on multiple platform is worse than the inclusion of every platform imo. I mean, it's cool that info is on reddit, here, tweet, blogs, ... but at the end of the day, what this essentially mean is that the playerbase now has to follow you (the CSM and CCP) around on all those platform because I'll be damned if there is ever going to be a way to make sure all the info shared actaully get shared everywhere. If it all went down on a single platform, anyone who don't get the info could be told "The info is THERE" instead of "Follow those facebook group, this sub-reddit, those tweet feed, those blogs and every section of the official forum" because you never know where the next info will be shared. I can't ask any of you to control the whole group and even less to control CCP but I would really like you all to think about how you think the entire player base see this information sprawl. Do you think we would like to be able to see stuff in one place instead of 18?
Tattoo Bob Onren
Doomheim
#67 - 2017-03-22 05:41:14 UTC
Another CSM election and another snooze fest. I have seen a more than 7 elections and I everyone of them are more and more anti-climatic. I would love to see a real time voting percentage. I would speculate we are the single digits. I love to be surprised by CCP. Other players having inside knowledge is like getting a sneak peek at your x mas presents. ( er excuse me Happy Holidays gift, must be PC in 2017!!! )

I want a caesar in EVE online. One voice speaking clearly, not a rabble going every which way! Right now CCP hands are tied debating ideas with the CSM. Sometime popular ideas are not necessarily the healthiest ideas. Example when PVE agent became all security/distribution or even mine this ore. When great PVP players would draw missions to get isk for PVP and get the nasty mining missions. They would actually speak to non PVP pal in local to get help. My god a give and take happened. Reading my notes the CSM pushed to specialize the missions. Sure, it was good in the short term. But it eliminated low level interaction!

Bah I am drunk . I need to go to bed.
Ranzabar
Golden Ratio One Six One
#68 - 2017-04-12 03:09:04 UTC
I'm announcing my candidacy for CSM to represent the thousands of solo High-Sec Care Bear miners and PvE ratters who spend most of their time either asleep at their keyboard or spinning their ships in the never changing interiors of 1.0 stations talking to no one.

This large, quiet and frankly sitting duck slice of the player base needs CCP to spend time making the static things we find so comforting even more comforting.

I'm serious, but I have no idea what I am doing.

So I'm highly qualified.

Abide

Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2017-06-08 07:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
So another year goes by and another CSM election.

This year having more candidates than all other elections except CSM 1 and CSM 10.

Of particular note is of course how many people actually gained their first choice in the new CSM 12 members.

The new CSM being

  • Innominate 680 (2.2% of the vote)
  • NoobMan 1511 (4.8% of the vote)
  • Jin'taan 1682 (5.4% of the vote)
  • The Judge 1636 (5.2% of the vote)
  • Aryth 4981 (15.9% of the vote)
  • Steve Ronuken 2187 (7% of the vote)
  • Vince Draken 1182 (3.8% of the vote)
  • Rhiload Feron-drake 1150 (3.7% of the vote)
  • Suitonia 1730 (5.5% of the vote)
  • Yukiko Kami 793 (2.5% of the vote)


The election saw 31,274 votes. With more than 15% exhausted votes and only 56.1% of primary votes going to those who now form the CSM.

Now if you consider that CCP no longer gives details of the total number of accounts but the fact it has been over 300,000 for years, the CSMs highest voted member does not even equate 1% of the EvE accounts.

CSM11 was around for the creation of free to play and while I personally like the idea, it seems to have made little difference over time. One must ask what did they achieve that benefited the majority of players.

The CSM is as I stated originally a block to CCP communicating with the player base like every other game developer does, in fact the only times the CSM have ever been valuable have been when it went against CCP and joined the player base against CCP.

I am still left with my original theme. It is time for the CSM to be taken out the back of the barn.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

Pestilen Ratte
Fat Kitty Inc.
#70 - 2017-06-22 00:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Pestilen Ratte
Well, the results are interesting. Aryth hardly attended meetings but got a huge slice of the vote. The Judge attended all the meetings and got a third of Aryth's popular support.

I am ambivalent about the CSM. They are like a nasty sister who trades in secrets. You hope for something serious and useful, but it won't happen. Anyway, you can't take them out back of barn. They are CCP's tired old pooch. Not ours.

Lookit, CCP said "You shall have CSMs", and we got them. The EU has parliamentarians, too. Do you know what they can get done? Nothing. Duh.

The point is not that they do anything, the point is that you have them, and so feel happy.

Old Yella may be a beat up hound with bad eyes and old dog smells, but is he a bad dog? Is he, properly qualified with respect to his kind, a danger to the children? I don't see it. i think he can still wag his tail and make the children happy.

CCP get paid to make Eve swell. The CSMs don't get paid to make us feel swell. Both rise to their level of remuneration with goodwill and a focus that is not deterred by reality or cranky folks.

I say three cheers for the institution of the CSM.

Who is with me?