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CCP Not Even Pretending.

Author
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#61 - 2017-06-07 17:40:15 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
April rabbit wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Inb4 some serious spin-doctoring about why this is not a blantant pay2win ad and absolutely no problem.


This isn't pay to win.

You have to win with what you buy to make it pay to win. 99% of the people buying PLEX for ships lose them almost instantly.

Isn't it any different in any other game? Is it really possible somewhere to simply pay and get others killed without using your stuff? Shocked


In other games you pay and get items that give you an advantage. I suppose having ISK does convey some advantage, but not in terms of items--i.e. you are not using an item I cannot have except by opening my RL wallet.


Exactly. When the day comes that I can pay 5 bucks to make my Ishtar launch 10 drones instead of 5 or directl make a 5% bonus to something 10 %, that will be when the line is crossed.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#62 - 2017-06-07 17:53:09 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
I've been against PLEX as implemented since the beginning.

For one reason. That was the day "cold " and "harsh" ceased to have any meaning when describing the game. Lose a ship? No problem, just buy some ISK and replace it.

It was especially noticeable as a character seller. I'd have to wait for some guy to have his couple of hundred dollar PLEX purchase go through so he could buy the character I was selling. So much for the struggle in this harsh universe.

As for justifying corporate RMT as a solution to unofficial RMT...IT'S STILL RMT! It's completely the wrong solution.

Mr Epeen Cool

60-day GTCs were traded for ISK on the forums right from the start in 2003. PLEX just integrated that into the game and made it easier in 2007.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#63 - 2017-06-07 18:03:34 UTC
Uhh I've seen people get carriers and supers recently because they broke out the CC (FYI this is nothing totally new) but with quickly injected characters that they decided to skimp out on very important skills and need to get bailed out of bad situations they get themselves into.

First time carrier pilot because they heard it had dank wallet ticks. "How do you jump?" "I can't fit a jump portal array." ...My fit is 10 jumps away I'll just take gates.
I want a super, a cyno isn't a requirement to fly it so no point in injecting. Help! I'm tackled! Someone light a cyno for me. Or I'm not a combat super I don't need a combat refit. I'll never need that passive refit so I won't train the compensation skills either that will save me a few hundred dollars in injectors and modules.
Thankfully I haven't seen a full CC warrior titan yet to have any stories, but I'm sure they exist.

EVE has never been in this situation before to this extent. It's definitely not pay to win, but it is pay to be ******** and make your corps/alliances look bad. That is what pisses some vets off - their impatience and unwillingness to learn the most basic mechanics before getting into them.
Skorpynekomimi
#64 - 2017-06-07 18:13:46 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I'll start getting concerned when Eve starts getting like this.



And yet, playing 15-30 minutes 5 days a week for a few months meant I end up with more resources than I know what to do with in that game.
As something to waste time on my breaks at work, it was ideal. But now I'm able to get hold of newspapers again, my interest waned. Still spent no real money on it, still nothing in it you can't get from playing.

Economic PVP

Zarek Kree
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#65 - 2017-06-07 18:46:00 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Uhh I've seen people get carriers and supers recently because they broke out the CC (FYI this is nothing totally new) but with quickly injected characters that they decided to skimp out on very important skills and need to get bailed out of bad situations they get themselves into.

First time carrier pilot because they heard it had dank wallet ticks. "How do you jump?" "I can't fit a jump portal array." ...My fit is 10 jumps away I'll just take gates.
I want a super, a cyno isn't a requirement to fly it so no point in injecting. Help! I'm tackled! Someone light a cyno for me. Or I'm not a combat super I don't need a combat refit. I'll never need that passive refit so I won't train the compensation skills either that will save me a few hundred dollars in injectors and modules.
Thankfully I haven't seen a full CC warrior titan yet to have any stories, but I'm sure they exist.

EVE has never been in this situation before to this extent. It's definitely not pay to win, but it is pay to be ******** and make your corps/alliances look bad. That is what pisses some vets off - their impatience and unwillingness to learn the most basic mechanics before getting into them.



I think your points are valid, but it's actually an argument in support of PLEX - not against. The system is self-correcting. If you inject skills and buy ships that you aren't ready for, you get smacked. EVE rewards experience far more than it does SP.

My own personal lesson in this came during my first few months in the game. I heard all these stories about how much money you could make ratting in a VNI (as a poor man's Ishtar), but I didn't have anywhere near the ship or drone skills I needed, so I bought some PLEX and skill injected what I needed. The problem was, I didn't have the first clue about how to rat safely in LS and NS. My first VNI got killed at a gate. My 2nd lasted about 30 min before a passing roam got me. You can't PLEX away inexperience and stupidity. By the time I got some experience and figured out the right way to do things, I could have trained those skills naturally. It was a waste of money.

So what's the harm? No bitter vet honor was harmed during the making of this anecdote - only my own pride.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#66 - 2017-06-07 19:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
@Zarek Kree - for the record I'm not fighting for or against injectors. But... I really hope you can see the difference between injecting into a VNI vs a carrier vs a super. If nothing else the several hundred dollars difference in that price tag if you CC warrior it, as well as the base knowledge expected of those flying these hulls. And how it looks upon the corp/alliance when those same people turn around and lose it due to their impatience and ignorance.
Zarek Kree
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#67 - 2017-06-07 19:24:59 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
@Zarek Kree - for the record I'm not fighting for or against injectors. But... I really hope you can see the difference between injecting into a VNI vs a carrier vs a super. If nothing else the several hundred dollars difference in that price tag if you CC warrior it, as well as the base knowledge expected of those flying these hulls. And how it looks upon the corp/alliance when those same people turn around and lose it due to their impatience and ignorance.


I think the difference is only one of degree. If you're too inexperienced to fly a ship that you skill injected into and die in a glorious explosion the moment you undock, how does this hurt anybody but the "CC warrior"?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2017-06-07 19:25:28 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
@Zarek Kree - for the record I'm not fighting for or against injectors. But... I really hope you can see the difference between injecting into a VNI vs a carrier vs a super. If nothing else the several hundred dollars difference in that price tag if you CC warrior it, as well as the base knowledge expected of those flying these hulls. And how it looks upon the corp/alliance when those same people turn around and lose it due to their impatience and ignorance.


Doesn't that actually reinforce EVE as harsh though?

A guy blows hundreds of dollars and helps to pad my killboards. Thanks buddy!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#69 - 2017-06-07 19:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
Like I said, I don't care one way or the other. I see the benefits and drawbacks to their existence. Great for newbros trying to just catch up, bad for those who think they are actually buying power. I'd agree we are slightly better with than without as it's more money for CCP and more content for us. But as far as the long term health and perception of the game goes, that's in question.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#70 - 2017-06-07 19:52:23 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nasar Vyron wrote:
@Zarek Kree - for the record I'm not fighting for or against injectors. But... I really hope you can see the difference between injecting into a VNI vs a carrier vs a super. If nothing else the several hundred dollars difference in that price tag if you CC warrior it, as well as the base knowledge expected of those flying these hulls. And how it looks upon the corp/alliance when those same people turn around and lose it due to their impatience and ignorance.


Doesn't that actually reinforce EVE as harsh though?

A guy blows hundreds of dollars and helps to pad my killboards. Thanks buddy!

Yes, its content. Bad players are content too. We should be thankfull.
NUBIARN
Brutal Ballerinas
#71 - 2017-06-07 21:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: NUBIARN
It is content that's the problem, or lack of it really. simply put it is easier to put a few hours overtime in at work and then buy plex than it is to grind for hours on end for isk.

The basic game hasn't changed in this regard since the early days, personally I think that's the major problem why player retention has dwindled. Yes there are area`s of the game where lots of isk can be made but the majority of pilots fly solo!! I know get some friends will be the response its a group game, yet many pilots don't play like that, look at the map high sec has most pilots, and the least isk makinh meaning plex is obviously the way many would take. I do agree with the op thou that it has made the game less hardcore. I remeneber when a battleship was a corp owned thing that required significant effort to obtain !!

PS above is not a moan I more than enough isk I am just pointing out why I think plex is so popular method of gaining isk.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#72 - 2017-06-08 07:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Jenn aSide wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
April rabbit wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Inb4 some serious spin-doctoring about why this is not a blantant pay2win ad and absolutely no problem.


This isn't pay to win.

You have to win with what you buy to make it pay to win. 99% of the people buying PLEX for ships lose them almost instantly.

Isn't it any different in any other game? Is it really possible somewhere to simply pay and get others killed without using your stuff? Shocked


In other games you pay and get items that give you an advantage. I suppose having ISK does convey some advantage, but not in terms of items--i.e. you are not using an item I cannot have except by opening my RL wallet.


Exactly. When the day comes that I can pay 5 bucks to make my Ishtar launch 10 drones instead of 5 or directl make a 5% bonus to something 10 %, that will be when the line is crossed.

Oh if you replace the example you made with something that is actually possible you can do that. You can pay to launch more drones by purchasing ISK for skill injectors instead of waiting for the small trickle of SP you get normally. This resembles a typical paywall found in many other pay2win games.

Let me address you and also Teckos here and clarify my position on this.

First of all, the term pay2win is used to describe a game where you can purchase game advancement, non-vanity items and lower timers with RL money instead of having to play the game for it. It does not mean "winning" in the literal sense, since in every game you also need player skill and such a thing can not be sold, and that is just true for every game. So pretending a game is not pay2win because they don't sell player skill (because it is not possible) is a bit disingenuous, since that would be true for all games anyway.

I know very well that PLEX was introduced to battle illegal RMT, but while it technically always resembled pay2win, it was the lesser of two evils and advertised as simple player2player transactions of ISK for game time.

But they recently started to heavily expand on it. And while you always had the knowledge somewhere back in your head that you could refill your space pockets with your RL money, it wasn't all that visible and dominating the game experience like it is today. There are literally ads to purchase advancements like skill injectors and ISK or access to more stuff and faster training time (Omega) at every corner now.

Now I know that most of this was possible for years. That does not mean I was in favour of it. As I said it was the lesser evil for a specific purpose. What I have a serious problem with is that they turn EVE from a game which was a immersive experience where the purpose was to flourish and make your way in this harsh universe to a something that looks more and more like a store front with small ads and reminders which nag you to purchase more stuff with RL money.

The page linked in the OP is the perfect example for this and the reactions and reciting of fallacies like "pay2win is only a given when you literally win" shows how blind people are to this tremendous change in how EVE is advertised.

It is true that EVE has some game mechanics which dwarf the advantages of stuff you can just purchase with RL money. However, think about how this game looks to you if you where new to the game and did not even know that. I bet if you would discover EVE at this time and day you would be appalled, since what it communicates is "paywalls everywhere".

This is how it looks now:
- Want to stop the endless and slow grind to get that new shiny ship? => give money.
- Want to stop the endless waiting for a skill with that awfully slow SP trickle? => give money
- Want to access more ships and skills to even be competitive? => give money
- Oh you purchased SP for a skill with RL money which was an OMEGA skill and now you are alpha again? => give more money to access the skill you purchased - every - month!

Now before you post "but this was possible before!!" think for a moment! Would you play a game where the above was your first impression if you don't have an investment already which makes you come here and defend it? Why isn't the "free2play" push attracting new players? Did you take a look at the PCU? It is back to where it was before they changed it and I am really not surprised, I would not start to play EVE if what I would encounter is the above.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2017-06-08 07:39:08 UTC
Welcome to the world of the golden rule.

He who has the gold makes the rules.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

April rabbit
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2017-06-08 09:34:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
April rabbit wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Inb4 some serious spin-doctoring about why this is not a blantant pay2win ad and absolutely no problem.


This isn't pay to win.

You have to win with what you buy to make it pay to win. 99% of the people buying PLEX for ships lose them almost instantly.

Isn't it any different in any other game? Is it really possible somewhere to simply pay and get others killed without using your stuff? Shocked


In other games you pay and get items that give you an advantage. I suppose having ISK does convey some advantage, but not in terms of items--i.e. you are not using an item I cannot have except by opening my RL wallet.

I see your point. However i don't agree with the notion that pay2win does not work if items obtained with RL money can be exchanged in-game (just to be sure: this is what i got from your post, i can be wrong for sure).

You mentioned CODE. But this is pretty nice example of advantage of ISK: having ISK allows you to bring more pilots and spend more ships on kills. Just imagine if CODE has no big wallet? They will not be able to kill empty freighters or maybe they won't be able to kill freighters at all. Because pilots need PLEX and ISK for ships. So CODE is perfect example of what happens when game entity has too deep wallet.

Look at other side of killmail: freighter pilots. People constantly tell then to bring webbing alt, scouting alt, etc... But all these alts need to be paid. And here we go again: ISK makes a difference. And good example of it: Red Frog. They have enough money to "do it right".

High-sec "mercenaries"? You have money - you can recruit them to hurt your competitor. Your competitor has enough money - you might get into trouble of wardecs.

0.0 sec? The same: alliance with bigger wallet can bring more pilots and better doctrines using SRP.

Trading? Small scale trader will have tough time competing with whales who can corner the market if he wants.

ISK is not straight 'Pay to win" but having more of it gives pretty nice advantage.
SupaL33tH4x0r Regime
Vheroknar Industrial Corporation
Vheroknar Tribe
#75 - 2017-06-08 11:34:06 UTC
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I'll start getting concerned when Eve starts getting like this.



And yet, playing 15-30 minutes 5 days a week for a few months meant I end up with more resources than I know what to do with in that game.
As something to waste time on my breaks at work, it was ideal. But now I'm able to get hold of newspapers again, my interest waned. Still spent no real money on it, still nothing in it you can't get from playing.


There was a guy that CC'd his way into a Sansha super carrier for like 15k usd and his alliance killed him for the killmail, its not a titan but the price tag I believe surpasses that.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#76 - 2017-06-08 12:07:06 UTC
April rabbit wrote:


ISK is not straight 'Pay to win" but having more of it gives pretty nice advantage.


And without plex, the only people who would have that advantage would be those who played longer. Plex helps level the playing field, and while this isn't all that important to me, it is important to many players 'obsessed' with being able to 'catch up' in an MMO.

Which is why plex is a necessary evil in so many ways, The people who complain about plex and pay to win do so from the comfort of a virtual game world that might not exist were it not for plex, or would exist but be WAY crappier with an economy skewed and screwed by isk sellers too numerous for even CCP to deal with.
April rabbit
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2017-06-08 13:24:17 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
April rabbit wrote:


ISK is not straight 'Pay to win" but having more of it gives pretty nice advantage.


And without plex, the only people who would have that advantage would be those who played longer. Plex helps level the playing field, and while this isn't all that important to me, it is important to many players 'obsessed' with being able to 'catch up' in an MMO.

Which is why plex is a necessary evil in so many ways, The people who complain about plex and pay to win do so from the comfort of a virtual game world that might not exist were it not for plex, or would exist but be WAY crappier with an economy skewed and screwed by isk sellers too numerous for even CCP to deal with.

True
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2017-06-08 16:52:20 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:


[snipping; too many quotes]

Oh if you replace the example you made with something that is actually possible you can do that. You can pay to launch more drones by purchasing ISK for skill injectors instead of waiting for the small trickle of SP you get normally. This resembles a typical paywall found in many other pay2win games.

Let me address you and also Teckos here and clarify my position on this.

First of all, the term pay2win is used to describe a game where you can purchase game advancement, non-vanity items and lower timers with RL money instead of having to play the game for it. It does not mean "winning" in the literal sense, since in every game you also need player skill and such a thing can not be sold, and that is just true for every game. So pretending a game is not pay2win because they don't sell player skill (because it is not possible) is a bit disingenuous, since that would be true for all games anyway.

I know very well that PLEX was introduced to battle illegal RMT, but while it technically always resembled pay2win, it was the lesser of two evils and advertised as simple player2player transactions of ISK for game time.

But they recently started to heavily expand on it. And while you always had the knowledge somewhere back in your head that you could refill your space pockets with your RL money, it wasn't all that visible and dominating the game experience like it is today. There are literally ads to purchase advancements like skill injectors and ISK or access to more stuff and faster training time (Omega) at every corner now.

Now I know that most of this was possible for years. That does not mean I was in favour of it. As I said it was the lesser evil for a specific purpose. What I have a serious problem with is that they turn EVE from a game which was a immersive experience where the purpose was to flourish and make your way in this harsh universe to a something that looks more and more like a store front with small ads and reminders which nag you to purchase more stuff with RL money.

The page linked in the OP is the perfect example for this and the reactions and reciting of fallacies like "pay2win is only a given when you literally win" shows how blind people are to this tremendous change in how EVE is advertised.

It is true that EVE has some game mechanics which dwarf the advantages of stuff you can just purchase with RL money. However, think about how this game looks to you if you where new to the game and did not even know that. I bet if you would discover EVE at this time and day you would be appalled, since what it communicates is "paywalls everywhere".

This is how it looks now:
- Want to stop the endless and slow grind to get that new shiny ship? => give money.
- Want to stop the endless waiting for a skill with that awfully slow SP trickle? => give money
- Want to access more ships and skills to even be competitive? => give money
- Oh you purchased SP for a skill with RL money which was an OMEGA skill and now you are alpha again? => give more money to access the skill you purchased - every - month!

Now before you post "but this was possible before!!" think for a moment! Would you play a game where the above was your first impression if you don't have an investment already which makes you come here and defend it? Why isn't the "free2play" push attracting new players? Did you take a look at the PCU? It is back to where it was before they changed it and I am really not surprised, I would not start to play EVE if what I would encounter is the above.


You don't play the game for SP. That is, I can pay a sub and simply not log except to change/modify the skill queue. In short, that is "pay2win" under your definition. By paying my sub I get more SP. All the character bazaar and injectors do is let a player speed up this process at a premium....and often ending up doing dumb things. Those who do not do dumb things have acquired considerable in game ISK--i.e. they are veterans which makes for a powerful advantage. Lots of SP and lots of ISK, so much so for the latter that they too can speed up the training process for a premium. But somehow when a new player does pretty much the same thing with his RL credit card it is now bad?

Also, how big of a problem is this? I just looked at skill injector prices, nuPLEX prices, subscription costs, etc. And if I did the math right (or at least a close approximation) it would cost quite a bit for a player to go from brand new starting SP to say 50 million SP, about $1,200. That is 329% more than paying an annual subscription and waiting the 2.2 years (26 months or so) to get to the same point...also paying RL money. How many new players take advantage of this and do this vs. veterans who are sitting veritable mountains of ISK?

Serious question: is it the use of RL money or that one can side-step the time requirements? After all it seems to me that the people who are going to take the most advantage of the new system in this way are going to be established players. Sure a new player might drop say $40 and 2-3 injectors and jump up 1-1.5 million SP here and there. But exactly how many new players are going open their wallets for $500 let alone $1,000 or more?

And I'll note that in each of your items above it is voluntary. All of them have "want" in them. I want a porsche, a house on the ocean, one in the mountains too, and wouldn't mind a nice collection of single malt whiskies too. But since I can't have them...well let's make it so nobody can?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2017-06-08 17:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
And this notion of "To be competitive you have to open your wallet". That view has ALWAYS been here. In fact, I think one can argue it was even worse in the past. A player's options were far smaller in the past and when that new guy runs into that veteran....a player with 3 million SP vs. 72 million SP. Why it is so unfair, the new player never stands a chance.

This is the logical conclusion of these arguments, IMO. It is hilarious, really people complain about people using RL money to over come SP differences and whatever advantages that may imply, but it is actually better when the only option is to simply wait? There have been mega-threads on this forum where people complain bitterly about gating, SP walls, and such. Whining about just pay your sub, but don't bother to log in because you can't compete.

It strikes me that some people really want to go back to the old days (and amusing Herzog accuses me of not being in favor of change--whatever) where a player's options were more limited and there might be more validity to the complaints about gating, SP walls, etc.

And to be clear, I am not validating those complaints about gating, SP walls, etc. I am just pointing out that this view very much appears to have considerable over lap with the "SP wall" position. Maybe we should just remove SP entirely...nothing left to "RMT" and everyone can use any and all hulls, modules, etc. right out of the gate?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#80 - 2017-06-08 17:35:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Man, wtf is wrong with the world When it falls to Jenn to be the voice of reason? Twisted Rather than jump on the OP and tell him how stupid he is for feeling the way he does, I'm honestly trying to see the irritation from his and others point of view.

I should say "tried" though, because I'm still not with it, and few people are as passionate as I am at maintaining the ideals of EVE online as I am. I get that CCPs recent efforts coupled with the lack of exciting news of future updates strike some as money grabbing and stagnation. I also get that some people don't like the idea that outside influences (money) can affect the game.

Like I said, NO ONE is more sensitive to the idea of EVE sliding down to become crappy like other games as CCP tries to 'mainstream' it for ever great profits. I'm the one who points at the "easy to learn hard to master" thing starting in 2012 as a bad turning point from the game.

But honestly CCP hasn't done anything outrageous here, they didn't add gold ammo or game warping things that can ONLY be bought with real money, they didn't add a "pay 250 plex and have your next 5 pvp ship deaths fully refunded/restored" option or anything like that. They simply consolidated currencies and practices that have existed since the beginning of the game. Instead of buying GTCs for isk to then pay to Mr Epeen and people like him for a character that has the skills they want, a player can buy plex to sell for isk to then use for skill injectors to accomplish the same goal (and at greater expense than in the past). The guy who lost a pvp or pve ship doesn't buy a GTC or some illegal for isk to replace it, now he just buys plex.

We play in a space-world made possible by people buying short cuts for isk (GTCs way back when, then PLEX and Aurum until recently, nuPLEX now). Whole entire game play lifestyles revolve around the exchange that plex makes possible. Now that my kids are grown I have time and patience to play EVE and I like to PVE I can use plex for game time (and skins and sometimes skill injection), the people I buy PLEX from tend to not have time/patience and/or despise EVE's version of PVE, PLEX unites us both , gives us something to trade with each other, and keeps both types in the game.


I'm not trying to break any rules about talking about real life, just want to mention than in general I find the 'plex protesting' to resemble what happens in the real word ie people being mad about something that not only benefits society as a whole, but that helped produce and enrich them as well.