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CCP Not Even Pretending.

Author
Zarek Kree
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#41 - 2017-06-07 04:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarek Kree
Mr Epeen wrote:
So there you go. Like every other person playing, I'll take advantage of a **** poor mechanic. In real life I'll stick to my principles occasionally, but never in a video game. That doesn't mean I won't be vocal about my disdain for the very mechanic that has helped make me rich.


So principled hypocrisy...Okay. I can respect that. But it still doesn't change the fact that the PLEX ship sailed a long time ago and it's not coming back - primarily because most players are fine with it. I don't see the inherent evil that you insist it represents, but I absolutely see the advantages in terms of (younger) player retention. And CCP makes a little money along the way. And apparently so do you. When it's a win-win-win all around, I have trouble seeing how that adds up to a losing strategy.

I get that you don't like it because...reasons. But, so what? You're still here, so you obviously don't care about it THAT much. So why should CCP?
JC Mieyli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2017-06-07 04:38:30 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
JC Mieyli wrote:
mr epeen you used to seem a lot smarter
but i figured it out
you deleted your sig
why did you do that?
I used to enjoy reading how typing u saved a whole two seconds
i wasted two seconds every time i read it
I didn't delete it. One day I logged in and it was gone.

So it goes. vOv

Mr Epeen Cool
well im sad to see it go
its the whole reason i stopped using proper punctuation
look how much time ive saved
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#43 - 2017-06-07 05:41:47 UTC
You dont have to read things actually. You can save a lot of time that you could spend sleeping or making out in a grass.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#44 - 2017-06-07 05:44:11 UTC
I'll start getting concerned when Eve starts getting like this.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#45 - 2017-06-07 05:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I'll start getting concerned when Eve starts getting like this.


I told them to put pachinko machines inside stations and bring WIS, am I terrible? But they would get a lot of cash, and you would get something TOTALLY AMAZING, randomly. Cool
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2017-06-07 05:57:42 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Zarek Kree wrote:


No...I think she pretty much captured the point. This is a perfect example of the adage "Where you stand is based on where you sit." In your view, PLEX negates the harshness of the game, but character sales don't...because you're a character seller.


If you are feeling dedicated enough, go back, way back, and look at all the posts I made that characters should be bound to the acct that created them and be untradeable. And yes, I was a character trader when I said that. Over and over.

But...much like even though I think lottos are a governmental tax on the stupid, if someone gifted me a winning ticket I'd be first in line to cash it. By the same token, CCP introducing RMT to buy characters is handing me a winning ticket. I'd be a fool not to take advantage of it.

So there you go. Like every other person playing, I'll take advantage of a **** poor mechanic. In real life I'll stick to my principles occasionally, but never in a video game. That doesn't mean I won't be vocal about my disdain for the very mechanic that has helped make me rich.

Mr Epeen Cool


Nobody gifted you characters to sell. You used your RL money to train them up in terms of SP then you cashed them in for ISK. That isn't RMT how precisely? And here are a couple of other points, you were facilitating the softening of the game by making it easier for people who needed a specific type of character quickly vs. telling them to HTFU and go train what they needed. Further, character trading is about as passive an income stream as one can have. These are things many people tend to look down their noses at (personally I don't mind).

And if you aren't going to stick to your principles why are you so upset when CCP does not stick to your principles?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Black Pedro
Mine.
#47 - 2017-06-07 07:40:52 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nobody gifted you characters to sell. You used your RL money to train them up in terms of SP then you cashed them in for ISK. That isn't RMT how precisely? And here are a couple of other points, you were facilitating the softening of the game by making it easier for people who needed a specific type of character quickly vs. telling them to HTFU and go train what they needed. Further, character trading is about as passive an income stream as one can have. These are things many people tend to look down their noses at (personally I don't mind).

And if you aren't going to stick to your principles why are you so upset when CCP does not stick to your principles?
Indeed. Character trading is straight-up RMT. It is exchanging in-game resources and power for cash albeit in a sanctioned way. It is why I didn't get all the uproar over P2W and "making the game less harsh" that went on last year when Skill Injectors were introduced. It is the exact same thing for crying out loud, and has been in the game for years and years. I think the loudest moaning game from players who trained and traded characters basically out of the game, in order to skim some in-game resources for themselves at no risk. All CCP did was find a way to cut out these greedy middle-men and make the RMT market more efficient (while probably increasing their real-world currency take per unit SP traded). But the fundamental mechanic has been there forever.

Same with the OP's complaint about the purpose of PLEX. Back when game codes were originally traded the sole purpose of the exchange was to trade in-game power for real-world resources. CCP, nor anyone else pretended otherwise. I wasn't around, but I believe when PLEX was first introduced its only purpose was the same - to allow players to exchange real-world game time for in-game resources. There were no other purposes. They eventually added some account related ones, and after the unification with Aurum, it inherited a whole set of additional uses to buy (largely vanity) in-game items via micro-transaction, but it is sort of missing the point to say that PLEX was not always intended to allow legal RMT between the players, or that CCP was trying to hide that fact.

As was said, there is no point in whining about that now. You are about a decade late if you can't handle a game with blatant and sanctioned RMT. Personally, I think for the type of game Eve is, trading SP is perfectly fine and fits with the free market theme of the game. I think Eve would be a more authentic game without any RMT, but I get the realities of a persistent MMO and realize that RMT of the illicit sort would still go on even if CCP didn't bring it into the open.

What is annoying is how in your face CCP is making the micro-transaction thing, which becomes insulting at some point when you are paying a monthly subscription to supposedly play the game. As long as the things they are selling amount to optional vanity items and taxes on RMT the integrity of the game will stay intact (well, as intact as it has been for years), but at some point that is going to turn off the regular paying customers who will just go somewhere else. One of the main attraction of a subscription is I don't have to deal with constant, and often deceitful, attempts at nickle-and-diming by the developer and while I can just ignore it like I have all along, it is tiring, and will get more tiring the more they increasingly wave it in my face.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#48 - 2017-06-07 08:35:03 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
How would you know what the CSM was informed of? Are you in it?

Because they told us on the forums they where not informed?
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#49 - 2017-06-07 09:11:58 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
As was said, there is no point in whining about that now. You are about a decade late if you can't handle a game with blatant and sanctioned RMT. Personally, I think for the type of game Eve is, trading SP is perfectly fine and fits with the free market theme of the game. I think Eve would be a more authentic game without any RMT, but I get the realities of a persistent MMO and realize that RMT of the illicit sort would still go on even if CCP didn't bring it into the open.

Oh I think we have come to a point where it is perfectly fine to whine about it. Actually we have come to that point a long time ago.

PLEX started as a legit way to RMT ISK to battle ISK sellers with CCP getting the profit instead of some other guy. This was always totally ok in my books since it was the lesser evil and almost completely eradicated the ISK spamers.

In the recent years CCP iterated on it in a massive way by first adding micro-transactions which I always thought was completely over the top for a subscription MMO which costs 15$ per month and then starting to adding non-vanity items, despite the promise to never do so, to the store. And now they basically turned PLEX into space gold while at the same time they created a magic item hangar which transcends characters and does not drop stuff.

I don't think those developments are in any way healthy for the game, For CCPs wallets perhaps, but I would say they managed to survive for over 10 years before they started to turning EVE into a store front with ads to purchase more stuff everywhere which in my opinion is heavily nagging on the immersion.

If they would stop right now, maybe I could still have hopes. I would still despise the micro-transactions and the space gold, but to be honest I don't believe for a second they are finished yet. They are quite clever iterating on it in a slow pace, while being able to argue at any point that the new thing is basically just a small change and everything you can do now you could do before in some way. I have absolutely no illusions that they are done yet. It is pretty obvious this will continue, and in my opinion this destroys the game I like bit for bit.

I used to pay 3 chars out of my wallet, now it is just 1, since the game lost value in my eyes and I am hardly playing anymore, watching from afar as they turn a perfectly fine space game where I was ok with paying 45 bucks a month into a store front. In my opinion I can get a lot more value for those 30$ somewhere else where I get all the content and not more an more locked away behind more and more paywalls on top of the 15$ monthly one.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#50 - 2017-06-07 09:50:00 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Oh I think we have come to a point where it is perfectly fine to whine about it. Actually we have come to that point a long time ago.

PLEX started as a legit way to RMT ISK to battle ISK sellers with CCP getting the profit instead of some other guy. This was always totally ok in my books since it was the lesser evil and almost completely eradicated the ISK spamers.

In the recent years CCP iterated on it in a massive way by first adding micro-transactions which I always thought was completely over the top for a subscription MMO which costs 15$ per month and then starting to adding non-vanity items, despite the promise to never do so, to the store. And now they basically turned PLEX into space gold while at the same time they created a magic item hangar which transcends characters and does not drop stuff.

I don't think those developments are in any way healthy for the game, For CCPs wallets perhaps, but I would say they managed to survive for over 10 years before they started to turning EVE into a store front with ads to purchase more stuff everywhere which in my opinion is heavily nagging on the immersion.
Don't worry then. 2016 was the best year ever for CCP financially, and it can only get better with the new unified PLEX system they just introduced. Clearly CCP has solved the monetization of Eve Online and they can get put that team back onto adding fixing or adding to the game itself. Eve Updates is bare, and at FanFest CCP Seagull all but said they were nowhere close to completing the grand vision of her roadmap for Eve online.

They could do that and provide some real reasons for players to remain interested, or become interested in the game, or, they could spend more time on coming up with more ways to make Eve look more like an online casino and squeeze a few more pennies out of the dwindling player base. I guess only time will tell.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#51 - 2017-06-07 10:35:25 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Don't worry then. 2016 was the best year ever for CCP financially, and it can only get better with the new unified PLEX system they just introduced. Clearly CCP has solved the monetization of Eve Online and they can get put that team back onto adding fixing or adding to the game itself. Eve Updates is bare, and at FanFest CCP Seagull all but said they were nowhere close to completing the grand vision of her roadmap for Eve online.

They could do that and provide some real reasons for players to remain interested, or become interested in the game, or, they could spend more time on coming up with more ways to make Eve look more like an online casino and squeeze a few more pennies out of the dwindling player base. I guess only time will tell.

But I am worried, exactly because this updates page is so bare. All those additional monetization efforts came out of the blue almost completely implemented.

There are basically 3 possibilities here why it is so empty:
1) It is another step with even more monetization, therefor secrecy.
2) Fewer teams work on EVE and therefor only balancing and small features make it to the game, so the page is accurate.
3) There is a really big expansion in the works and they don't want to spoil the surprise.

Now I would be really really surprised in a very positive way and channel those 30 bucks back into EVE if it was number 3. However, there is no real good reason at the moment to think that. It is far more likely it is 1 or 2.

As for the more money CCP makes with EVE, don't think for a second this will in any way influence how much resources they spend on it. CCP is a company and has more projects than EVE. Their newest thing is the whole VR crap which in my opinion is just another obvious dead end. I mean they have only one successful game and now they gut it for money to fuel development in a market which is just incredibly small and still at a high risk of never taking off.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#52 - 2017-06-07 10:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Quote:
There is a really big expansion in the works

There is something about new opportunities in high sec and mining platforms.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#53 - 2017-06-07 11:26:36 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Don't worry then. 2016 was the best year ever for CCP financially, and it can only get better with the new unified PLEX system they just introduced. Clearly CCP has solved the monetization of Eve Online and they can get put that team back onto adding fixing or adding to the game itself. Eve Updates is bare, and at FanFest CCP Seagull all but said they were nowhere close to completing the grand vision of her roadmap for Eve online.

They could do that and provide some real reasons for players to remain interested, or become interested in the game, or, they could spend more time on coming up with more ways to make Eve look more like an online casino and squeeze a few more pennies out of the dwindling player base. I guess only time will tell.

But I am worried, exactly because this updates page is so bare. All those additional monetization efforts came out of the blue almost completely implemented.

There are basically 3 possibilities here why it is so empty:
1) It is another step with even more monetization, therefor secrecy.
2) Fewer teams work on EVE and therefor only balancing and small features make it to the game, so the page is accurate.
3) There is a really big expansion in the works and they don't want to spoil the surprise.

Now I would be really really surprised in a very positive way and channel those 30 bucks back into EVE if it was number 3. However, there is no real good reason at the moment to think that. It is far more likely it is 1 or 2.

As for the more money CCP makes with EVE, don't think for a second this will in any way influence how much resources they spend on it. CCP is a company and has more projects than EVE. Their newest thing is the whole VR crap which in my opinion is just another obvious dead end. I mean they have only one successful game and now they gut it for money to fuel development in a market which is just incredibly small and still at a high risk of never taking off.
I share all your concerns. I was attempting to be sardonic there.

The big warning flag for me was when mining platforms, the only thing of significance on the updates page for the last half of 2016 got unceremoniously delayed a whole year, and replaced with nothing but a vague reference to a mysterious Empire expansion at Fanfest. That could mean they have been working in complete silence on some amazing new content that will completely revitalize the PvE in the game, or it could mean they basically stopped investment in the game, aside from some token maintenance and effort towards what Seagull promised, and switched most of the remaining resources to monetizing the game via micro transaction. I suspect you are right though and it is the latter meaning there is only moderate, and glacial iteration ahead for the game and, likely, continued decline because of it.

We shall see in the winter if there really is some meat on the promised Empire expansion, or if it is just a permanent implementation of the events they have been running with some of this slightly-better AI thrown in. And then one can all make a choice of whether to continue sending money to CCP every month for the product they have made if one has stuck around until then.
Trixi Laminer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2017-06-07 13:01:20 UTC
Plex has always been available through ccp or one of its resellers for as long as i can remember.
Either you afford the price or you grind isk for the plex or you do the alpha player stuff.
Plex opens up the game for both casual people who maybe dont want to subscribe for 6 months but maybe for 1 month at a time and the hardcore folks who need to buy 20 new pvp ships Smile
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#55 - 2017-06-07 15:34:19 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
I've been against PLEX as implemented since the beginning.

For one reason. That was the day "cold " and "harsh" ceased to have any meaning when describing the game. Lose a ship? No problem, just buy some ISK and replace it.

It was especially noticeable as a character seller. I'd have to wait for some guy to have his couple of hundred dollar PLEX purchase go through so he could buy the character I was selling. So much for the struggle in this harsh universe.

As for justifying corporate RMT as a solution to unofficial RMT...IT'S STILL RMT! It's completely the wrong solution.

Mr Epeen Cool


yeah I know pve and pvp pilots alike that just make up for losses buying plex.

had a ceo I know that's been buying plex to get injectors and rorqs + some other ships and have lost them wonderfully, buys more plex to make up for the losses

I know PVP pilots that have 0 reason to do any pve for isk now because when they need isk for new ships they just buy more plex so they can stay on their gates more

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2017-06-07 16:30:50 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Inb4 some serious spin-doctoring about why this is not a blantant pay2win ad and absolutely no problem.


This isn't pay to win.

You have to win with what you buy to make it pay to win. 99% of the people buying PLEX for ships lose them almost instantly.

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April rabbit
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2017-06-07 17:11:07 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Inb4 some serious spin-doctoring about why this is not a blantant pay2win ad and absolutely no problem.


This isn't pay to win.

You have to win with what you buy to make it pay to win. 99% of the people buying PLEX for ships lose them almost instantly.

Isn't it any different in any other game? Is it really possible somewhere to simply pay and get others killed without using your stuff? Shocked
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2017-06-07 17:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
TigerXtrm wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Inb4 some serious spin-doctoring about why this is not a blantant pay2win ad and absolutely no problem.


This isn't pay to win.

You have to win with what you buy to make it pay to win. 99% of the people buying PLEX for ships lose them almost instantly.


Okay, so I saw Ima’s initial post and now this post quoting it gives me a chance to address my issue with Ima’s position.

The implication is that ISK => winning/more capable. I have two issues with this view.

The first is that having ISK conveys some sort of strong advantage. Yes, having ISK means I can go out and buy expensive stuff in game, but I question whether or not this means that one is assured of victory or that victory is more likely. After all, look at Ima’s organization. There they routinely use ships that cost a fraction of the hull they are going to blow up (I am referring to suicide ganking of freighters). The notion of ISK tanking or even more questionable ISK based DPS does not seem like dubious concepts.

One can argue that it makes to reship, but this strikes me as a weak argument in support of pay2win. First off, reshipping does not mean future success, it can, but it is not a given. Second, isn’t reshipping and getting back out there and playing the game a good thing?

The second problem I have with this is that PLEX for ISK for new players, time constrained players and players who just loathe in game ISK making activities is a way of reducing whatever ISK advantage older more established players have and shifting it to these other classes of players. And it is one that is completely voluntary. The person handing over the ISK clearly values the PLEX more than the ISK and the person handing over the PLEX values the ISK more than the PLEX. Both parties are clearly better off. And has been alluded to in previous comments those of us not party to this exchange may also benefit. We benefit by keeping the both players in the game and doing stuff. Some of these in-game rich player stays in game by PLEXing account. Also, the player buying ISK is not willing to go out into space and do stuff. In other words, we have the potential for more content not less.

Does this make the game a bit less “harsh and cold”? Maybe, but whether you are using that ISK you got via a PLEX to sit with your buddies on a gate and slaughter everyone coming through, or you are getting slaughtered by jumping through into that gate camp the game can still be pretty damn unforgiving in many ways. Making it easier to retain some players and for other players to go out and do stuff in game does not strike me as a bad thing at the end of the day. If some guy uses his RL money to buy a PLEX or 5 and then uses that ISK to buy ships I get to try and blow up that ship…fantastic. If it is a corp/alliance mate doing the same thing and he is now in fleet and we are going out to stir up trouble. Wonderful.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#59 - 2017-06-07 17:37:54 UTC
April rabbit wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Inb4 some serious spin-doctoring about why this is not a blantant pay2win ad and absolutely no problem.


This isn't pay to win.

You have to win with what you buy to make it pay to win. 99% of the people buying PLEX for ships lose them almost instantly.

Isn't it any different in any other game? Is it really possible somewhere to simply pay and get others killed without using your stuff? Shocked


In other games you pay and get items that give you an advantage. I suppose having ISK does convey some advantage, but not in terms of items--i.e. you are not using an item I cannot have except by opening my RL wallet.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#60 - 2017-06-07 17:38:02 UTC
The distinction between pay to win and "pay to save time" (what EVE does) is narrow, but it exists. EVE doesn't have ships and ammo that can ONLY be had by paying cash. And nothing in the New Eden store gives insane buffs to actual in game items.

If CCP had an option for me to pay 100 bucks and turn my Machariel into a "Cartel Fleet Issue Machariel" with 8 guns and a 100% damage bonus to guns and 600 ehp if you put just one shield extender on it and there was no way to get that ship with ISK, THAT would be pay to win.

(damn, why did I envision a Fleet Mach, now I want one!!!)

CCP letting you spend money to get characters or skill injectors or dual character training in EVE Online faster than you could the old fashioned way just isn't the same thing. I'm as anti P2W as anyone when it comes to games, especially EVE, but it does not exist right now and nothing CCP is doing looks like it's coming.

IMO no reason to be worried and even if there was a reason, it's CCPs game. Our choices are play or play not, that's all.