These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Kinetic missile bonus on Caldari ships, the elephant in the room...
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#41 - 2012-01-23 20:00:53 UTC
Cyniac wrote:

As an example take the Lachesis - get rid of it's hybrid damage bonus, give it thermal missile bonus and get rid of the split weapon system by allowing it to fit 5 launchers. You get a beautiful little ship then don't you think?


A 5 launcher Lachesis gives me a major jones...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#42 - 2012-01-23 20:24:52 UTC
Mitchrus wrote:

Ships that have a bonus to racial damage by race:
Caldari


Gallente


Minmatar


Amarr

Khanid ships could be considered to have racial damage bonus

More Caldari ships on the list than the other races combined.

You're looking at it the wrong way. Under gallente, you would put every single ship with a damage bonus. Same for amarr. Minmatar get pretty decent damage selection, unless that is you want to use any of their t2 ammo.

A bonus to hybrids or lasers or drones IS a fixed damage type bonus, because they all do fixed damage types (even drones, the damage modifiers are quite different between damage types). Missiles don;t have that inherent weakness, so to compensate for it they have the limitation coded into the ships rather than the weapons themselves. Same concept, different approach.

Exploited Engineer wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
The kinetic bonus is there because lasers and hybrids, and therefore Gallente gunboats and Amarr gunboats are limited in damage type.


Gallente have drone boats if you want full damage type selection. Amarr have some drone boats (and even their gunboats have generous drone bays) and some missile boats for full damage type selection (and Amarr have much, much better gunboats and better guns than either Gallente or Caldari). Winmatar have ... oh wait, let's not talk about Winmatar (hey, how about changing all Winmatar projectile weapon damage bonuses to projectile explosive damage bonuses, since explosive is their signature damage type? How'd you like that?). Caldari have exactly zero drone boats.

Also, there are some Caldari missile boats with missile ROF bonuses instead of missile kinetic damage bonuses (Raven, Golem, etc). Are they overpowered in any way?

Ignoring the point I've addressed already (other races also having damage-specific bonuses), let me answer your last question with a question of my own:
Is the drake, with its current kinetic missile bonus, UNDERPOWERED? How about the tengu? Deciding you don't like a certain type of bonus and demanding it be changed on all caldari ships is a TERRIBLE way to go about looking for balance. The drake in its current form is already overpowered, as is the tengu, and replacing their kinetic bonuses with ROF bonuses would leave the entire population of eve flying nothing but them. You don't balance bonuses, you balance ships, which brings me to this guy:
Galerak wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Balance ships, not bonuses.


Do they not go hand in hand? Considering the bonuses are directly tied to the ship, i fail to see a distinction but thanks for playing, tell him what he's won Bob...

They go hand in hand, but they are not the same, and there is a VERY big difference with regards to how you balance them.
The way it should be done is this:
"This ship seems to be under/over powered, maybe we should change one or more of its bonuses to balance it out."
What you seem to want is this:
"This bonus seems underpowered, let's change it on all ships that have it, and disregard the fact that it will result in massive balance problems as certain ships become horribly overpowered after our little blanket buff."

When you balance something in the game, you have to look at how it performs against everything else in the game, from the point of view of how things will work out when said changes actually hit the game. Weaknesses are given to ships on purpose, to provide balance for the strengths. If you don't like the weaknesses of a ship, fly something else. Buffing it beyond the point of being overpowered is not the answer.
Ronk Cho Fat
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-01-23 20:30:31 UTC
in my opinion it will not be possible to balance caldari with tengu as it is, there are so many ships that will be ignored because tengu everyone fly it.

this is sad for our race
Murtific
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#44 - 2012-01-23 20:41:03 UTC
Gallente has th damage. Best against amarr
Caldari has best kin damage. best against minmatar.
Minmatar variable. Best against kitchen sink.
Amarr has th, best against caldari.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#45 - 2012-01-23 21:26:55 UTC
I can't take the op seriously when he tries to say that switching a kinetic damage bonus to a ROF bonus is "balanced" by increased ammo use on a capless weapon system.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Shukuzen Kiraa
F4G Wild Weasel
#46 - 2012-01-23 21:40:30 UTC
Just give us a bonus to ALL missile dmg types instead of just Kinetic. Or at least do that to me beloved Nighthawk :D
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#47 - 2012-01-23 21:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Exploited Engineer
Cambarus wrote:
Is the drake, with its current kinetic missile bonus, UNDERPOWERED?


As far as its offensive capabilities go? Definitely.

Cambarus wrote:
How about the tengu? Deciding you don't like a certain type of bonus and demanding it be changed on all caldari ships is a TERRIBLE way to go about looking for balance. The drake in its current form is already overpowered, as is the tengu,


Neither of the two ships is overpowered in the offensive section.

The drake can only be called overpowered because it combines a ridiculously low shield recharge time (half that of Caldari battleships) with a ridiculously high base shield capacity (three times that of Caldari cruisers, and almost as much as Caldari battleships), with a signature that's still well below that of a battleship (so it's not as vulnerable to large weapons).

The Tengu might be called "overpowered" because it has all the advantages of a Caldari ship (strong shield tank, long range, etc) while ditching most of the typical Caldari weaknesses (it's not a slowboat with a huge sig. Still lacks good drone capacity, though). Oh, and it finally has enough mid slots to actually fit stuff. (Most Caldari ships have one low slot too many and one mid slot too few.)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#48 - 2012-01-23 21:55:12 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Is the drake, with its current kinetic missile bonus, UNDERPOWERED?


As far as its offensive capabilities go? Definitely.


Uh... you really think that??

Really???

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#49 - 2012-01-23 22:07:08 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Is the drake, with its current kinetic missile bonus, UNDERPOWERED?


As far as its offensive capabilities go? Definitely.

Cambarus wrote:
How about the tengu? Deciding you don't like a certain type of bonus and demanding it be changed on all caldari ships is a TERRIBLE way to go about looking for balance. The drake in its current form is already overpowered, as is the tengu,


Neither of the two ships is overpowered in the offensive section.

The drake can only be called overpowered because it combines a ridiculously low shield recharge time (half that of Caldari battleships) with a ridiculously high base shield capacity (three times that of Caldari cruisers, and almost as much as Caldari battleships), with a signature that's still well below that of a battleship (so it's not as vulnerable to large weapons).

The Tengu might be called "overpowered" because it has all the advantages of a Caldari ship (strong shield tank, long range, etc) while ditching most of the typical Caldari weaknesses (it's not a slowboat with a huge sig. Still lacks good drone capacity, though). Oh, and it finally has enough mid slots to actually fit stuff. (Most Caldari ships have one low slot too many and one mid slot too few.)

The shield recharge has exactly nothing to do with the drake being OP, and is irrelevant anyway, because the issue at hand is this:

If you swap the kinetic damage bonus with a ROF bonus on all caldari ships, the drake and tengu will become horrendously overpowered. That alone is a good reason not to change the bonus. As a general rule, if you ask the question "Why don't we buff all ships with bonus X by giving them a better bonus?" And the answer is "Because it will make one or more ships so terribly overpowered that nobody will fly anything else ever", it's pretty safe to say the buff was poorly thought out.

Tengu is already the best t3 by a fairly wide margin in a fairly wide range of situations (and is, IMO, in need of a nerf itself) and the drake is not only the best tier 2 BC (though it more or less shares that trait with the cane) but is so absurdly good at what it does that the damn thing singlehandedly changed 0.0 warfare. Even now drake gangs are quite common, because drakes are one of the best fleet ships in the game, despite being cheap and easy to skill for. The LAST thing they need is a massive boost.

TBH though I can tell you're a caldari fanboy, and it's kind of funny how you don't even seem to realize it. You literally said that the tengu is good because it has all the advantages of caldari ships with none of the downsides (which is BAD, not good, ships have drawbacks for a reason) while acting like this is a good reason why it should get a buff...
Galerak
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-01-24 01:53:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Galerak
Cambarus wrote:
Galerak wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Balance ships, not bonuses.


Do they not go hand in hand? Considering the bonuses are directly tied to the ship, i fail to see a distinction but thanks for playing, tell him what he's won Bob...

They go hand in hand, but they are not the same, and there is a VERY big difference with regards to how you balance them.
The way it should be done is this:
"This ship seems to be under/over powered, maybe we should change one or more of its bonuses to balance it out."
What you seem to want is this:
"This bonus seems underpowered, let's change it on all ships that have it, and disregard the fact that it will result in massive balance problems as certain ships become horribly overpowered after our little blanket buff."

When you balance something in the game, you have to look at how it performs against everything else in the game, from the point of view of how things will work out when said changes actually hit the game. Weaknesses are given to ships on purpose, to provide balance for the strengths. If you don't like the weaknesses of a ship, fly something else. Buffing it beyond the point of being overpowered is not the answer.


If the bonus were to be changed it would not be changed to the same thing on every ship. If you stop being intentionally petulant and narrow minded this should be obvious. For example this thread obviously doesn't apply to the bonus on the Manticore. I would expect in some cases the bonus might be changed to an actual damage bonus. In some cases it might be changed to a bonus to missile explosion velocity or a reduction in sig radius factor vs missile damage and in some cases move away from the damage theme entirely towards a utility or defensive bonus. If you even bothered to read the original post you should understand that getting the bonus changed to something more useful is my primary concern and this in no way implies that the same things are going to be useful to every ship or even every missile boat. That is just poor assumptions on your part.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#51 - 2012-01-24 01:57:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
So you really believe that 5% Kin damage isn't a useful bonus?

-Liang

Ed: I mean, you'd really equate a 5% Kin damage bonus on the Drake to 10% laser capacitor usage on the same Drake?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Galerak
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-01-24 02:08:00 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Is the drake, with its current kinetic missile bonus, UNDERPOWERED?


As far as its offensive capabilities go? Definitely.


Uh... you really think that??

Really???

-Liang


Actually yes. The raw dmg numbers on the drake using kinetic missiles are sub par vs other BCs however the drake has an overpowered tank, which more often than not balances it out. Even as a caldari pilot i hate the drake. I'm glad it's getting re-balanced even tho some people are calling the changes a nerf. The reason the drake is so common is because aside for the training intensive shield skills it takes very little time to get into one and it's easy to use. Even an undertrained shield tank can fly one adequately because the shield setup of the drake is quite overpowered on its own. So drake fleets were born, dozens of new characters with crap skills in a ship with low damage but a respectable tank have become the most comon and hated sight in the cosmos. I sneer at every drake I see the same as you guys, because having spent quite a bit of time in one myself I consider them to be the ship of choice for noobs and lazy pilots.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#53 - 2012-01-24 02:18:29 UTC
Galerak wrote:

Actually yes. The raw dmg numbers on the drake using kinetic missiles are sub par vs other BCs however the drake has an overpowered tank, which more often than not balances it out. Even as a caldari pilot i hate the drake. I'm glad it's getting re-balanced even tho some people are calling the changes a nerf. The reason the drake is so common is because aside for the training intensive shield skills it takes very little time to get into one and it's easy to use. Even an undertrained shield tank can fly one adequately because the shield setup of the drake is quite overpowered on its own. So drake fleets were born, dozens of new characters with crap skills in a ship with low damage but a respectable tank have become the most comon and hated sight in the cosmos. I sneer at every drake I see the same as you guys, because having spent quite a bit of time in one myself I consider them to be the ship of choice for noobs and lazy pilots.


You are aware that the Drake actually has really respectable DPS when it has 3 BCUs on it right? You're also aware that it has far superior damage projection to every other BC?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Galerak
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-01-24 02:26:35 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
So you really believe that 5% Kin damage isn't a useful bonus?

-Liang

Ed: I mean, you'd really equate a 5% Kin damage bonus on the Drake to 10% laser capacitor usage on the same Drake?


Almost yes. Because only rarely to we actually use Kinetic missiles and that's mostly in missions. Switching from Kinetic to a dmg type thats more likely to be lower is a significant dmg increase even over the bonus to kinetic. As an example if i use EM missiles instead I would gain about 40-50 dps if EM is their second lowest resist, and about 60-70dps if EM is the lowest resist. Now this just just a simple example from some tests I ran about a week ago in hacs w/ some corpmates. I would honestly prefer a missile explosion velocity buff or sig factor vs missile damage reduction bonus instead. But again any bonus that could be used at least a majority of the time, even if not an offensive bonus would be better in my opinion.

The Kinetic dmg bonus doesnt mean we only carry one ammo type so we still use alot of cargo space which means less cap charges or less ammo of each type. also if you have t2 launchers youre carrying at least 8 types of missiles.... high dmg t2 and faction of each dmg type and if youre a pessimist or not in a fleet you're probably also carrying the t2 range missiles as well. Thats alot of cargo space. The Kinetic dmg bonus isnt big enough that it makes using kinetic missile more worthwhile than the other dmg types, unless you would already be doing so anyways. So what exactly was the bonus intended for?
Galerak
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-01-24 02:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Galerak
Liang Nuren wrote:
Galerak wrote:

Actually yes. The raw dmg numbers on the drake using kinetic missiles are sub par vs other BCs however the drake has an overpowered tank, which more often than not balances it out. Even as a caldari pilot i hate the drake. I'm glad it's getting re-balanced even tho some people are calling the changes a nerf. The reason the drake is so common is because aside for the training intensive shield skills it takes very little time to get into one and it's easy to use. Even an undertrained shield tank can fly one adequately because the shield setup of the drake is quite overpowered on its own. So drake fleets were born, dozens of new characters with crap skills in a ship with low damage but a respectable tank have become the most comon and hated sight in the cosmos. I sneer at every drake I see the same as you guys, because having spent quite a bit of time in one myself I consider them to be the ship of choice for noobs and lazy pilots.


You are aware that the Drake actually has really respectable DPS when it has 3 BCUs on it right? You're also aware that it has far superior damage projection to every other BC?

-Liang


With all lvl 5 skills a drake w/ 7 HML2s and 3 bcs t2 the drake does not even break 450dps w/ the t2 high dmg kinetic missiles. 444.55 dps to be exact. Now you gotta remember that while yes that is at a great range (75k) you ONLY get that damage output against a BS or larger unless it is also webbed and tp'd. And who is going to be webbed at 60k or farther? So even if 444.5 dps was on par dps for a bc the actual dmg output is even lower unless the target is larger or not moving.

While it may not be a fair comparison being a t3 (although it is still a cruiser not a battlecruiser), a tengu w/ 3 bcs t2 and 6 HML2s does 621dps w/ the same ammo. This is why you see so many tengus in small gang/solo pvp because it actually has the dps to compete 1v1 vs other races.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#56 - 2012-01-24 03:06:47 UTC
Galerak wrote:
With all lvl 5 skills a drake w/ 7 HML2s and 3 bcs t2 the drake does not even break 450dps w/ the t2 high dmg kinetic missiles. 444.55 dps to be exact. Now you gotta remember that while yes that is at a great range (75k) you ONLY get that damage output against a BS or larger unless it is also webbed and tp'd. And who is going to be webbed at 60k or farther? So even if 444.5 dps was on par dps for a bc the actual dmg output is even lower unless the target is larger or not moving.

While it may not be a fair comparison being a t3 (although it is still a cruiser not a battlecruiser), a tengu w/ 3 bcs t2 and 6 HML2s does 621dps w/ the same ammo. This is why you see so many tengus in small gang/solo pvp because it actually has the dps to compete 1v1 vs other races.


It's not, so don't be dense about it. Compare similar ship classes.

Compare the Drake to the Cane or the Harbi. All commonly flown shield.

Drake (Fit I just tossed together), 73k EHP, 398dps with faction, 445 with Fury. Range 73km. Point and TP

Cane, 48k EHP, 596 dps RF Fusion (~16km range, but falloff eats a fair bit of damage), 475 dps Barrage (~27km range, again falloff)

Harbi, 40k EHP, 601dps Navy Multi (~10km range, lasers no likey falloff), 479 dps Scorch (~26km).

Drake gives up a piddling little bit of DPS to TRIPLE its engagement range (you *Do* have intys and long tackle to use that range, right?), while sporting half again as much tank.

By the way, A HAM Drake gets 553 DPS rage, 497 faction @ around 16km. It also has ~66k EHP. Hey, isn't 16km roughly the range of a cane with Fusion?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#57 - 2012-01-24 05:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Galerak wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
So you really believe that 5% Kin damage isn't a useful bonus?

-Liang

Ed: I mean, you'd really equate a 5% Kin damage bonus on the Drake to 10% laser capacitor usage on the same Drake?


Almost yes. Because only rarely to we actually use Kinetic missiles and that's mostly in missions. Switching from Kinetic to a dmg type thats more likely to be lower is a significant dmg increase even over the bonus to kinetic. As an example if i use EM missiles instead I would gain about 40-50 dps if EM is their second lowest resist, and about 60-70dps if EM is the lowest resist. Now this just just a simple example from some tests I ran about a week ago in hacs w/ some corpmates. I would honestly prefer a missile explosion velocity buff or sig factor vs missile damage reduction bonus instead. But again any bonus that could be used at least a majority of the time, even if not an offensive bonus would be better in my opinion.

The Kinetic dmg bonus doesnt mean we only carry one ammo type so we still use alot of cargo space which means less cap charges or less ammo of each type. also if you have t2 launchers youre carrying at least 8 types of missiles.... high dmg t2 and faction of each dmg type and if youre a pessimist or not in a fleet you're probably also carrying the t2 range missiles as well. Thats alot of cargo space. The Kinetic dmg bonus isnt big enough that it makes using kinetic missile more worthwhile than the other dmg types, unless you would already be doing so anyways. So what exactly was the bonus intended for?


Lets examine the underlined quote by taking a look at some common fits and the fits from several of my latest kills. Lets also consider having a 25% kinetic damage bonus and whether or not you should be using Kinetic missiles.

EHP from common fits:
- Drake: 67k EM / 76k Thm / 92k Kin / 105k Exp (Use EM damage)
- Nanocane: 49k EM / 48k Thm / 54k Kin / 60k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Plate Cane: 102k EM / 71k Thm / 66k Kin / 61k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Nano Binger: 44k EM / 44k Thm / 50k Kin / 56k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Plate Binge: 89k EM / 74k Thm / 69k Kin / 68k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Vagabond: 64k EM / 35k Thm / 23k Kin / 26k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Abaddon: 164k EM / 137k Thm / 128k Kin / 126k Exp (Use Kin damage)
- Maelstrom: 76k EM / 66k Thm / 73k Kin / 78k Exp (Use Kin damage)

Here's the EHP from my last several kills:
- Vengeance: 6944 / 8128 / 10569 / 19937 (EM)
- Keres: 3889 / 4245 / 6265 / 3807 (EM)
- Tornado: 36599 / 32127 / 39529 / 45299 (Kin)
- Brutix: 86332 / 72613 / 74938 / 62804 (Kin)
- Sacrilege: 45075 / 84244 / 62322 / 115721 (Kin)
- Hurricane: 44843 / 42369 / 47880 / 51888 (Kin)
- Moa: 35594 / 31873 / 38778 / 44625 (Kin)
- Caracal: 13147 / 9782 / 11051 / 12284 (Kin)
- Taranis: 3992 / 3795 / 4322 / 3846 (Kin)
- Megathron: 153882 / 128045 / 131742 / 133635 (Kin)

Its most certainly possible to get a wider selection of fits but I'm pretty sure you're going to see a similar layout - maybe 5% of fights should use EM, 5% use Exp, and 90% use Kin.

-Liang

Ed: It occurs to me that you may not have trained BC5. In which case you should just be quiet. :)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#58 - 2012-01-24 06:13:29 UTC
Galerak wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Galerak wrote:

Actually yes. The raw dmg numbers on the drake using kinetic missiles are sub par vs other BCs however the drake has an overpowered tank, which more often than not balances it out. Even as a caldari pilot i hate the drake. I'm glad it's getting re-balanced even tho some people are calling the changes a nerf. The reason the drake is so common is because aside for the training intensive shield skills it takes very little time to get into one and it's easy to use. Even an undertrained shield tank can fly one adequately because the shield setup of the drake is quite overpowered on its own. So drake fleets were born, dozens of new characters with crap skills in a ship with low damage but a respectable tank have become the most comon and hated sight in the cosmos. I sneer at every drake I see the same as you guys, because having spent quite a bit of time in one myself I consider them to be the ship of choice for noobs and lazy pilots.


You are aware that the Drake actually has really respectable DPS when it has 3 BCUs on it right? You're also aware that it has far superior damage projection to every other BC?

-Liang


With all lvl 5 skills a drake w/ 7 HML2s and 3 bcs t2 the drake does not even break 450dps w/ the t2 high dmg kinetic missiles. 444.55 dps to be exact. Now you gotta remember that while yes that is at a great range (75k) you ONLY get that damage output against a BS or larger unless it is also webbed and tp'd. And who is going to be webbed at 60k or farther? So even if 444.5 dps was on par dps for a bc the actual dmg output is even lower unless the target is larger or not moving.

While it may not be a fair comparison being a t3 (although it is still a cruiser not a battlecruiser), a tengu w/ 3 bcs t2 and 6 HML2s does 621dps w/ the same ammo. This is why you see so many tengus in small gang/solo pvp because it actually has the dps to compete 1v1 vs other races.


A few comments:
- A 3 BCU HML Drake with my skills (not max) gets 452 DPS with Furies and 531 if you include drones. With long range weapons, it outdamages a standard kiting nanocane from 15 (Fury) to 20km (Faction)
- A 3 BCU HAM Drake gets 644 DPS with my skills (not max). It outdamages a standard nanocane from 9-30km.
- For some reason you think its fair to complain about the Drake not getting full damage but think that turret ships get full damage. -_- The ability for the Drake (and any missile ship really) to deal full damage while totally nano'ed out is pretty pro. :)
- All ships get less in game DPS than they show in EFT.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jodie Amille
EVE Corporation 690846971
#59 - 2012-01-24 06:47:47 UTC
While I suspect a troll, let's look at some numbers comparing tier 2 bc's and their long range weapons:

Harb: 7x heavy beam, 3 HS, 2 TE, DC does 643 dps at 19+16km using IN MF including 5x valk 2's. With Aurora, you do 426dps to 54 km's counting drones, then a whopping 299 dps at 70+16(keep in mind you need a sebo to lock past 62.5 km

Cane: 6x720's, 3x gyro, 2xte, dc, 1x valk, 4 warrior: does 559 dps at 19+36km using short range ammo. With tremor, does 361 dps to 54 km's with drones, then 273 dps at 70+36, also needing a sebo to lock past 56km's(lol)

Drake: 7x HML, 3x bcu, 5x warriors: Using scourge fury does 531 dps to 54 km's with drones, then 452 dps to 75.9 km's with a lock range of 79km. If you want to, you can load CN scourge and do 405 dps to 84.4 km's but need a sebo to lock that far.

If you switch to non-bonused missiles(I'll use thunderbolt fury), you do 362 dps at 75.9 km or 441 dps to 54km's using drones. All this while fielding a substantially better tank.

These numbers are all using my skills and implants, which are gun damage and ROF ones

If that doesn't clearly illustrate why the drake is more than fine as is, I will happily show some numbers using the short range weapon systems as well.
Aamrr
#60 - 2012-01-24 06:48:37 UTC
Damage selection is the exception, not the rule. Neither hybrids or lasers are capable of accomplishing it to any significant degree, and even projectiles struggle to do it in their long-range ammo selections. (I can't believe I just defended projectile ammunition. Moving on...)

Being able to drop 20% of your DPS to switch damage types is an advantage most other races don't have. Be thankful you have it.