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War dec

Author
Revis Owen
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#41 - 2017-06-02 17:22:45 UTC
Hilti Enaka wrote:
Despite their previous attempts without success . . .
Surely this part of the game is long overdue an overhaul.

If your enemy is repeatedly not succeeding against you with wardecs, why are you asking for an overhaul to wardecs? Logically, people don't ask for changes to things that aren't really affecting them.

Unless you're lying and the VMG wardecs ARE succeeding in negatively affecting you enough for you to cry to mommy CCP to do something about the sandbox bully wardeccing you.

In that case, stop crying for CCP to solve your problem for you. HTFU, learn to use all the tools CCP provides you, and git gud.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#42 - 2017-06-02 17:30:39 UTC
Making my prediction now that this thread will end up at 30 pages, and that we all know how it will play out.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Wanda Fayne
#43 - 2017-06-02 21:23:27 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
Wardecs really aren't much more than a miner annoyance.





ftfy
Blink

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Wanda Fayne
#44 - 2017-06-02 21:24:28 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
spelling is hard, harder when you're stupidStraight


or drunkLol

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2017-06-02 21:48:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Indeed.
They need to fix locator agents so that targeted wars can be prosecuted in a civilized fashion that allows a realistic opportunity for an aggressor to successfully hunt down targets in a manner that isn't a complete waste of time and ISK.
As it stands it's rediculously inefficient to spend hours on end and millions of isk just chasing the ghosts of people who aren't actually online.
Be thankful, with your three man corp there's a very realistic chance of a motivated customer service agent being able to find where you are and deliver you quality service. Just think of all the supremely disappointed members of corps with hundreds of members who will never be able experience this service unless they idiotically wander down a pipe into a trade hub while war decced.
For just 29 cents a day...


You are assuming that this will lead to no more mass war decs. It seems quite possible you could end up with both.

And to be clear, I am not opposed to targeted war decs. I am not opposed to changing locator agents or allowing something that brings back some sort of watch list functionality. I am just pointing out that in an emergent system "going back" is probably not possible.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2017-06-02 21:52:39 UTC
Hilti Enaka wrote:
Baaldor wrote:
Hilti Enaka wrote:
So once again VMG have decided to war dec my 3 man corp.

Despite their previous attempts without success this is the 5th time they've decced me.

I'm here again asking the question; how is this war mechanic even providing engagement? It does nothing but provide an easy lazy way to play the game.

Surely this part of the game is long overdue an overhaul? From the neut logi's to the way warring is handled.


This has been bantered about from the beginning.

The war dec mechanic has been gutted due to the cries of the risk averse clowns that has basically ruined an important part of EvE. There is very little at risk in hi-sec, all the mechanics of any sort of "danger" in high sec, is about gone. You essentially now have a safe zone.

The nerfs killed the Privateers, whom created a lot of content. and spurred this MERC game play you whine about. All of this has killed the piracy in lo-sec because of whiny SJW dbags.

I am glad to see this, it warms my heart to see SJW run to the forums to complain, and flail their arms in the air. It gives me hope the game that was supposed to be dark and harsh stil has a bit of left.


The same way you dirtbags cry about Wardecs in your alliance.

I think you missed the point entirely, the current war dec mechanic is crap, its just alliances blanket deccing corps with no means of objectives other than to sit tidy on hub gates with alt logi's waiting for some clown to be dunked.

Funny really high sec is so safe yet daily there are Billions lost in suicide ganking whilst you boys sit with intel channels covering the likes of Fade, pureblind, Deklien, Branch - i'm pretty sure Riot has you docking up when an enemy is spotted 20 jumps away. Not to mention the 15 man hit and run squads you love to drop your carriers on.

Funny isn't it i know so much about your game play!


Being foolish and imprudent should never be rewarded or protected. If you foolishly overload your ship in terms of cargo value you deserve what you get.

Note: The "you" above is the indefinite "you".

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#47 - 2017-06-03 00:02:48 UTC
Thinking about these kinds of complaints some more, it strikes me that some say "eve is a game of personal responsibility", and "dont ask mommy CCP to fix your problems", when these are no more than personal opinions, and opinions that not everybody holds. In fact it seems that most people in life are looking for someone else to fix their problems. First it's mommy, then its a teacher, next the police/ law, or even your boss at work, but there's usually some authority ruling over people. Of course, in game is different and there is no authority ruling you but yourself.

People who have known nothing else but this kind of authority, see making noise as a valid course of action. If they make enough noise, the authority will realise people aren't happy, and so to keep its position it will try and make them happy. If there is no authority figure, then obviously making noise is completely wasted effort, which I think is why so many posters here can't understand the complaint posts.

It comes back to misleading expectations, in life there are laws and if you break the laws there are punishments from above, of course that doesn't stop all crime but it puts off rational people. People who have lived life come to eve and expect the same, foolishly, but are supported by systems like 'crimewatch', and the space police, words which create the expectation that there IS an authority there to take responsibility off you. These people continue taking no responsibility for themselves, until they suffer a loss, and are forced to deal with the consequences.

Eve can go one of two ways, it can attempt to make outsiders who believe in the rule of law adapt to an environment where force is the only law. Or it can have an area of the game with laws, but it will have to deal with people calling for changes to those laws, since they can't change the laws through any in game action.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Buggs LeRoach
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2017-06-03 01:45:24 UTC
Pix Severus wrote:
The Watch List used to show you if a person was online or not, regardless of whether they had added you as a contact. The Watch List system was removed and replaced with the Buddy List. This was done because cap pilots in low/null would log on, and immediately have enemies swarming to their last known location in hopes of catching a juicy capital, even if they hadn't logged-on in months or even years.

In turn, this change practically destroyed a style of merc gameplay used in highsec, as mercs could no longer find online targets using the Watch List. This has forced some merc corps to change their playstyle to continue generating content for their members, to the chagrin of many other highsec dwellers.

A solution to this would be to make the Watch List operate as it once did in highsec, but if the pilot is in low or null, then the Watch List acts like the current Buddy List.

It will never happen though, and it's a shame.


got some news for you .. watch list originally was called buddy list . and was not intended as an intel tool .
it became a crutch , a convenience , an insurance policy , and certain playstyles evolved around it .
it gave some aspects of the game too much safety , and removing it was a good thing .

now there's a bit more risk .. empire dec'ers can't be sure of the enemies online numbers . is that such a bad thing ?
null sec hot droppers can't be sure they're not being baited for counter drop . is that such a bad thing ?

the crutch has been kicked out from under those who relied on it ; adapt or die time ..





Omar Alharazaad
Praetorian Cannibals
Cannibal Empire
#49 - 2017-06-03 03:27:58 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Indeed.
They need to fix locator agents so that targeted wars can be prosecuted in a civilized fashion that allows a realistic opportunity for an aggressor to successfully hunt down targets in a manner that isn't a complete waste of time and ISK.
As it stands it's rediculously inefficient to spend hours on end and millions of isk just chasing the ghosts of people who aren't actually online.
Be thankful, with your three man corp there's a very realistic chance of a motivated customer service agent being able to find where you are and deliver you quality service. Just think of all the supremely disappointed members of corps with hundreds of members who will never be able experience this service unless they idiotically wander down a pipe into a trade hub while war decced.
For just 29 cents a day...


You are assuming that this will lead to no more mass war decs. It seems quite possible you could end up with both.

And to be clear, I am not opposed to targeted war decs. I am not opposed to changing locator agents or allowing something that brings back some sort of watch list functionality. I am just pointing out that in an emergent system "going back" is probably not possible.



No argument here really.
It's hard to get a river to flow backwards.
My point was primarily that when CCP implemented the change they also funneled this activity in one direction.
We tried for over a year to swim against the current and keep things active in the manner we were used.
We got creative and found workarounds, and we were extra active with the flying monkey brigade.
While depressing, it did become abundantly clear that it was not sustainable indefinitely.

Now, even if they were to do something to make targeted wars a viable form of gameplay again the masses are already drawn into the main channel of pipe and hub camping... because it works. Also, the old guys who engaged in this type of play are tired and burnt out from trying so hard so long that it's going to be hard to get them to return to the old life.

So now we have this, like it or not.
Ultimately my advice to the so called victims remains the same.
Move.
Don't fly down pipes or hubs when decced like some kind of idiot.
Use scouts.
Keep your head on a swivel and watch local.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#50 - 2017-06-03 07:22:34 UTC
Were it up to me™ :


There would be two kinds of corps: Asset holding and "LLC" (limited liability). To be an assent holding corp you would need real assets in space (citadel, poco, etc.). If you were just an LLC, you would have little more than a "social club" at that point: a chat room and no assets. LLCs would also lack other benefits that a holding corp has. LLCs would have to rely only on NPC stations and only allowed one office.

(LLCs would be allowed to join alliances and would be part of alliance wars just not directly deccable or deccing on their own)

Only holding corps would be deccable or could wardec. This would be the "skin in the game" concept. You want to dec people, you gotta have attackable assets in space. You want to be a "real" corps and rake in some ISK, you have to have assets in space... and you better defend them too. (Read: "reasons to undock").


Holding corps in a war are authorized to anchor "scanning arrays" that are attackable but would yield close to real time data on war targets. Think "Imperial scanning drone" of the sort that found the rebel base. This would be the functionality of a watch list in deployable object form.


And finally, anybody engaging in neutral RR would become a war target to the opposing force until the end of the war. if more than 50 percent of members of a corp of any type engage in NRR then that corporation has joined the war until it's over. Period. Put up or shut up time. (or: in before HTFU cultists and their usual "I declare I'm better than you because game mechanics" BS).

I would also add in the ability to cloak a citadel ("pirate modules"? ) . Why? To make spying great again. And because that would be cool.

Also, were it up to me, wardecs would be something less psychologically heavy on players. How? Simple. Naval NPC corps for each faction are at war with each other. Think "automatic faction war for noobs". Noobs who start out in their factional naval academy are at war with the other factions per faction war, but with the exception that they are not prevented from going into the space of other empires. Why do this? So new players have a shot at being scrappy PVPers instead of perfumed princes in bling boats.

I would also have NPC corps randomly wardec each other. Aliastra and Native Fresh Food might have a beef once in a while . No pun intended. Perhaps Royal Amarr Institute might want to lay some discipline down on The Scope for reporting on those nuns with their bad habits. Who knows.


That's what I would do to "fix" wardecs. And this is based on years worth of reading opinions of other players who are much better at this game than I am.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#51 - 2017-06-03 08:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Only holding corps would be deccable or could wardec. This would be the "skin in the game" concept. You want to dec people, you gotta have attackable assets in space. You want to be a "real" corps and rake in some ISK, you have to have assets in space... and you better defend them too. (Read: "reasons to undock").


the problem with this is ,
Well ill quote raz on this

Lord Razpataz wrote:
So.. for the last few months I've been arguing that having a citadel up to do wars is a bad change of the wardec mechanic.
It would only serve as a way for the bigger fish to push out the small fish, and so on.

While I've I've been arguing this.. Devils, have had a Fortizar planted in romi for the last 6 months, in house.

And as I predicted... The only ones that jumped on it was PIRATE.. after 6 months and we just had 3 active people left in Devils.

Now we unbuckled and gave them a damn good belting for it ,
because **** those guys.
The point stands though, they only serve as a means for bigger groups to push smaller ones about.
Never once did anyone else actually make an attemp on it

Edit:early morning spelling is hard.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#52 - 2017-06-03 09:04:28 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Only holding corps would be deccable or could wardec. This would be the "skin in the game" concept. You want to dec people, you gotta have attackable assets in space. You want to be a "real" corps and rake in some ISK, you have to have assets in space... and you better defend them too. (Read: "reasons to undock").


the problem with this is ,
Well ill quote raz on this

Lord Razpataz wrote:
So.. for the last few months I've been arguing that having a citadel up to do wars is a bad change of the wardec mechanic.
It would only serve as a way for the bigger fish to push out the small fish, and so on.

While I've I've been arguing this.. Devils, have had a Fortizar planted in romi for the last 6 months, in house.

And as I predicted... The only ones that jumped on it was PIRATE.. after 6 months and we just had 3 active people left in Devils.

Now we unbuckled and gave them a damn good belting for it ,
because **** those guys.
The point stands though, they only serve as a means for bigger groups to push smaller ones about.
Never once did anyone else actually make an attemp on it

Edit:early morning spelling is hard.



Yeah I been watching that "Sack of Romi" thread and I see your point.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Omar Alharazaad
Praetorian Cannibals
Cannibal Empire
#53 - 2017-06-03 09:55:41 UTC
I might be in the minority here, but I also have kind of always thought of the ships that are being brought to the party as the 'skin' that attackers have in a war.

The tricky thing is the logistics of it all, and no I don't mean the ship type.
I mean that if you're just haunting a small area and feeding on whatever passes through it's easy to bring out the big fat ships and cluster up to feast on the hapless. You always hear about the unkillable blobs of T3C's with their neutral logi just lurking about to murderfy anything slow enough for them to catch.

But, if you're trying to deliver a quality service to an unawares that's twenty or thirty jumps you just can't really work like that and expect results. There have been several cases before the gelding of targeted wars that we had to fly light and fast or we'd miss the party... and the punch and pie, and the pony.
Instead of a wrecking ball of T3 deathystuff it meant a handful or less in frigates, maybe a T3 dessie or so.
This leads to fights where the outcome is NOT certain if you just look at numbers on paper.
What makes the difference in these cases is human mentality, of course.
The monster under the bed factor, if you will.

Of course, those days are gone now and wont likely return any time soon.
For now, and the foreseeable future, the bottom feeders rule the river.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Toms Alpha
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2017-06-03 19:34:35 UTC
Hate wardecs? Create a 1 man corp.
Hate flying alone? Join the "Atomic Space Unicorn Guild" or turn your corp into something similar.

Problem solved. And eventhough I have a near perfect solution, I'm still having trouble recruiting people....
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#55 - 2017-06-03 19:40:01 UTC
Toms Alpha wrote:
Hate wardecs? Create a 1 man corp.
I made my one man corp for the sole purpose of collecting wardecs. Not avoiding them.

It worked for a while, but has tapered off along with the general population. The only people left playing, for the most part, are smart enough to not wardec forum alts.

Mr Epeen Cool
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#56 - 2017-06-03 19:54:11 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Toms Alpha wrote:
Hate wardecs? Create a 1 man corp.
I made my one man corp for the sole purpose of collecting wardecs. Not avoiding them.

It worked for a while, but has tapered off along with the general population. The only people left playing, for the most part, are smart enough to not wardec forum alts.

Mr Epeen Cool

Start slagging vendetta off in c&p,
We caught a dec in under five minets of my last thread going up Blink
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2017-06-03 22:58:00 UTC
If your corp is big enough, you can wardec the wardeccers' POCO holding corps and bash POCOs.

If you have neutral logi problems, solve them with lots of EMP, Fusion, and/or Phased Plasma L.

A signature :o

Hilti Enaka
Assisted Homicide
#58 - 2017-06-06 13:24:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Hilti Enaka
Some good points in here and some that probably needed a little bit more though. For example:

Why don't you leave your corp and close it - This is why we need to improve warring so this doesn't happen.

Meh so what they are wasting ISK - Again, I have to ask why this is an acceptable way for the warring mechanic to be.
Flag as harassment - No this is not harrassment it's valid albeit crap way, in it's current state for many, to play the game
Watchlist was the catalyst for war decs becoming the way they are today - may be however the reason for the changes in watchlist were valid. That said watch list, in my eyes, should be something that comes available to both parties (name of member online, their location, what ship they're in) obviously some sort of scale for the cost of war decs should be attached here
couldnt care about the war itself just means I go afk until it's dropped - For someone raging about "lazy easy game play" that's quite the hilarious stance to have. - Can't you see this, again, is why it needs looking at.

I'm sure there are more examples of replies to my OP where if you think 1 step further, you are indirectly adding a positive angle to why war deccing needs looking at.
Omar Alharazaad
Praetorian Cannibals
Cannibal Empire
#59 - 2017-06-06 13:47:26 UTC
unintended consequences and whatnot.
the watchlist change was to address the issue of free intel regarding cap ship pilots... as such in order to maintain some kind of sanity in regards to billions and trillions at risk for free, those who used the same tool for equally nefarious but smaller scale nogoodery were screwed. plight begets plight, and the path was lit for the ONE TRUE WAY TO WAR in high sec.

and now we have ants.

so.

Do we nerf ants?
Or, do we fix the trail that led them to your picnic?

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Hilti Enaka
Assisted Homicide
#60 - 2017-06-06 13:52:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Hilti Enaka
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
unintended consequences and whatnot.
the watchlist change was to address the issue of free intel regarding cap ship pilots... as such in order to maintain some kind of sanity in regards to billions and trillions at risk for free, those who used the same tool for equally nefarious but smaller scale nogoodery were screwed. plight begets plight, and the path was lit for the ONE TRUE WAY TO WAR in high sec.

and now we have ants.

so.

Do we nerf ants?
Or, do we fix the trail that led them to your picnic?


In my mind watchlist should be a service of war dec. note my point about cost of war dec should scale.

questions need asking:
"as a war dec merc what tools do you need" and the answers to these questions form the bill for war dec.
"As a defender in a war what tools do you need" and the answers to these questions help form the bill too.

Of these answers there will be things both sides need and want and there will be other things one side wants but the other does not. That for me is a war dec mechanic.

From a "global" point of view, more incentives to attack / defend and make it a much more engaging part of the game instead of lets all sign out on the peri gate with our alt logi scrubs and neut eyes and go to war with half of eve ever week.