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[June] Nullsec Asteroid Cluster and Excavator Drone changes

First post First post
Author
caldari MJ
Ping Warriors
#261 - 2017-06-02 06:35:04 UTC
All gameplay of our small group is battle for get fun againist CCP (particularly againist fozzie)
We was wh-group, you nerfed rolling, nerfed statistics, nerfed pve for our targets, you banned our exCEO (qex) for nothing without any investigation, made stupid eviction mechanics. So you destroyed WH fun for us.
We started roll 0-sec on t3 armor searching rorqs/carriers and some homedef fleets and had fun. 0-sec alliances need drop supercarriers or 10-20 carriers to make us run in wh. So what we will have after your patch in june: 1) single rorquals (or small mining groups with equal homedef numbers like kids, badfellas etc) will pass away as class; 2) AFTER t3 nerf big alliances not need drop us with supers, just need jump on 4-5 carriers. So we will lose ANY reason to roll 0-sec and bring our content and fun both for us and for 0-sec citizens.
So what conclusion. After june we need kick most or corpmembers who came for fun and return to wormholes for....nothing.
Hate you, CCP. Hate you fozzie. I would be glad when this game will die, stop brining money for you and finally makes us free.
Sorry for bad english, but i tried to show all my pain X
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#262 - 2017-06-02 06:46:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Players own Risk.
CCP owns Reward.

When Reward is nerfed because the economy is going wrong, CCP is not the only one to blame, since Players also are failing to deliver enough Risk.

All in all you could just mine less & blow more Rorquals instead of forcing CCP to nerf your rewards, don't you guys?


PS: as a highsec miner who won EVE one year ago, CMAR.
ORLICZ
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#263 - 2017-06-02 06:49:40 UTC
nerf yes !!! i have rorq and they are mining too much- but carriers also make too much isk :P and capitals have too much range- thats wy rorqals are to safe in some regions ....but ccp knows better


what can i tell 2 bil plex = less new players from poor countries like Poland cos 10 dollars its a lot for us- and grinding 2 bill in BS is also too muchof time.... ccp knows better
Inquisitor Lucious
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#264 - 2017-06-02 06:51:28 UTC
Xianax wrote:
Do they even have an economist at CCP? I think this monitoring the economy stuff is a hot steaming load out of CCP. If they want to fix the amount of ISK flowing in the game they need to nerf bounties by 90%, Nerf ore yield across the board by 80%, reduce mission payouts at all levels by 90%, reduce incursion payouts by 90%. The everyone will really have to buy more PLEX cause everything will be so expensive and take too long to grind for. CCP will be able to line their pockets as PLEX sale will go up when players finally run out of the trillions of isk in their pockets.



You do understand that plex is only useful for game time or vanity items or skill extractors, so where do you get that people will buy plex because things will be to much of a grind and expensive? Why do you imagine that plex sales will go up? They can't pay for ships or skill books or minerals and we've already seen what happens with the player base when even a hint of pay to win rears its head, so those trillions of ISK will stay in players wallets and instead plex sales will drop, why buy something that gives you no value? There are plenty of games out there and we don't have to monetise this one if we don't like it.
UnbendingLight
Brand Newbros
Freight Train Diplomacy
#265 - 2017-06-02 06:53:40 UTC
I've never posted on these update threads before because I took previous Rorq nerfs in stride in the sense that they were a necessary evil but 13 pages in and counting - It's evidently clear that a lot of people are upset and are somewhat justified.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks.
Firstly, we are adding a respawn cooldown to all Asteroid Cluster anomalies. This cooldown scales based on the size of the anomaly:
  • 20 minutes for the Small Asteroid Cluster
  • 1 hour for the Medium Asteroid Cluster
  • 2 hours for the Large Asteroid Cluster variants
  • 4 hours for the Enormous Asteroid Cluster variants
  • 5 hours for the Colossal Asteroid Cluster variants


These changes will only have a significant impact on the absolute busiest nullsec mining systems. The vast majority of nullsec miners will not be negatively impacted. The pilots mining in those few extremely busy systems will have the option of staggering when they mine, or simply spreading out to a few extra systems.



CCP has the right idea in mind, Goons (sorry for throwing you under the bus but its kind of true) primarily (but not exclusively) mine so much ore that the value of mining for both high-sec miners and small null-sec corps is heavily de-valued because ore is worth so little when a null-bloc like Goons can pump out the numbers that they can. It discourages new players from trying out mining because they're stuck with High-sec ores on top of an over-supplied & inflated market.

However, the outstanding concern I have for adding respawn timers like this is that null-blocs with small corps and even smaller mining groups within them aren't going to want to form a fleet to clear a mining anom. It turns mining into a chore for those that enjoy it. Instead of telling people in my corp that I'm posting up boosts in the colossal belt, I'm now asking people to drop what they're doing to mine the remaining bad ores to help force a respawn at a later time.

(we will look at that in depth later in the disccussion)

What made Ice belts good was that they were clustered in such a way that it wasn't overly-difficult to clear them in a Rorq. You'd need to reposition a few, maybe 5 or 6 times depending on how far you want to reach to get all the ice out, but it didn't feel like a chore because the ice had an inherent use to the Rorqual pilot (isotopes and Heavy water). The rorquals had an incentive to mine ice. Because of this, clearing an Ice belt takes enough time and effort that It doesn't feel like a chore much at all.

You have a different story with Ore anomalies. Some miners are industrialists, no doubt. But by and large miners mine because its a relaxing and simple means to make a reasonable amount of isk. If people feel they can afk rat just as easily and make considerably better isk they will tend to go towards that method of isk generation. People don't want to mine bad ores because they aren't worth much, (no doubt due to Rorqual proliferation and multiboxxing)but also because the spread of ores discourages Rorqual use. Typically you'd sit your Rorqual on a large spod rock or strategically between some small rocks and then ideally have your mining barge friends mine the rocks far away from the rorq that are on their own.

If you go to a Small Ore anomaly now you'd find a few scattered medium-sized spod rocks. They are the only reason you'd ever consider bringing in a Rorq here, as the smaller rocks sitting on their own are not worth lighting the indy core. The same situation scales up all the way to the large belts where you will start finding asteroids clustered near each other where it is viable to strategically place the Rorqual instead of just on a single Spod rock.

Where does this leave us then?

Well, we need to evaluate the respawn timers. Is there any expectation that a Rorqual fleet will move into a small or medium belt aiming for anything other than Spod? Not likely (albeit possible for some with lower ADMs but they would be the minority in this example). It means that a timer for smaller anomalies is meaningless for both large and small alliances/corps, and bad for both large and small alliances/corps in regards to the large/enormous/colossal.

(Post contunied 1/3)
UnbendingLight
Brand Newbros
Freight Train Diplomacy
#266 - 2017-06-02 06:54:27 UTC  |  Edited by: UnbendingLight
(Post continued 2/3)

Many posts thusfar have talked about how respawn timers create a disincentive to mine at all. I know for a fact that most miners will mine ores that the idustrialists need (read: Spod) or the valuable ores. That leaves me and my singular mining barge alt with an anomaly full of dead ores. It is now a chore and a risk to clean them up because I am placing a valuable asset in considerable risk for little profit on my end. And the kicker is that depending on when I decide to mine - and I'd argue most players play during the evening - I do not reap the benefits of my work in the form of good ores again, as I will likely have to go to sleep due to work or other priorities.

This means: I need to have faith that there are miners out there who also will decide to take on this additional chore and risk so that they can supply me with ores if I happen to log in at the right time 5 hours later (for the colossal).

This assumes:
- There are miners to clear the bad ores from the colossal
- There are ENOUGH miners willing to clear the bad ores
- That I log in at the right time and am able to solo mine or form a fleet
- The ore isn't gone by the time I log in if it is respawned

Thereby I'd argue that these qualifiers for deciding whether I mine at all are not reliable means to control the ore economy. It will reduce mining, but it will have a negative impact on miners in both null and high security space, and also small and large groups.

While it is easier to criticise than it is to suggest an Idea, I would put forward the suggestion to drop down the respawn times for the anomalies slightly. However, better than that, my ideal solution would be:

Continue with the force-respawning of anoms with low amounts of ore left in them at downtime.


(Post continued)
UnbendingLight
Brand Newbros
Freight Train Diplomacy
#267 - 2017-06-02 06:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: UnbendingLight
(Post continued 3/3)

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks.
We are also making some more small adjustments to the Excavator drones themselves. In June the changes are:
  • About 9% less yield for Ore Excavators
  • 12.5% lower speed for Ore Excavators
  • About 11% longer cycle time for Ice Excavators
  • 10% lower speed for Ice Excavators


We will continue observing the economy after these changes and making adjustments as necessary to keep it healthy for all our players.


The next segment of this discussion we will take a look at the ways in which CCP has made a concerted effort to counteract the over-supply of ore in the market currently.

While I personally do not enjoy more excavator nerfs I will try to put aside my worry to actually look at the implications of these changes.

CCP Fozzie wrote:


  • About 9% less yield for Ore Excavators
  • 12.5% lower speed for Ore Excavators



Overall yield reductions from the Rorquals for 9% and 12.5% speed reduction for the excavators. In combination you can expect to get something around 10-15% actual yield loss from excavators due to flight time which will reduce the isk/hr of a Rorqual to something around 120-150mil/hr as opposed to the 150-180mil/hr.

(Rough statistics gained from Spod rocks generating 140-150mil~/hr reducing by ~15% on the low end and something like ABC ores on the high end - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

CCP Fozzie wrote:


  • About 11% longer cycle time for Ice Excavators
  • 10% lower speed for Ice Excavators



The same sort of reduction to ice drones can be seen too but to a higher degree, especially due to speed reductions.


In theory, reducing the speed is good in the sense that you make the excavators more exposed to hostiles and force the Rorquals to reposition more often as a result to ensure their drones' safety. Overall, you don't want Rorquals to be safe all the time and there should be a penatly and risk to over-extending your safe mining range.

I can't speak for how effective it is in practice because I personally haven't attempted to boosh enemy excavators before - But I can say this much - If you watch local and pay attention to intel it is very hard to lose any excavator drones at all. Someone could argue that the speed reduction opens up the window of opportunity for pvpers to kill excavator drones. Currently, on average, 15-25 excavators a day are killed on average just taking a quick glance at Zkill which shows a reasonable rate of loss already (Not suggesting against their killing, just stating fact).

This pretty much covers what I want to say about the nerf itself, but I want to discuss something other people have already pointed out.

Rorqual mining in of itself is not inherently the problem. Yes, there are a lot of Rorquals in New Eden now, and yes they mine quite a lot each day just by themselves. However, the question to ask here is;

To what degree does a singular Rorqual mining ore contribute to the detriment of the EVE economy compared to an array of multiboxxing Rorquals, Mining Barges or Exhumers?

I personally have 3 accounts. One is currently unsubbed and the other two mine often, with one in a rorq and the other in an exhumer. I would consider myself a small miner by comparison to some other people but for the sake of this post I am making reference to the suggestion made in Fozzie's post that only...

CCP Fozzie wrote:

"the absolute busiest nullsec mining systems. The vast majority of nullsec miners will not be negatively impacted."


Here is one example, myself, alongside many others who are keeping up industry ADMs to continue mining, who expects to be negatively impacted.

Personally, I think multibox mining kills the ore economy. While I techically am a multibox miner myself, there are vast swathes of new accounts injected into t1 mining barges being run by a singular controller.

CCP need to compare how much ore is mined by a single Rorqual compared to a Multibox fleet of them or a multibox fleet of t1 barges. In the current meta, a Rorqual does not mine as much as people think it does and this new nerf serves to cut it even further to the point where two fully boosted hulks will mine near to par with the Rorqual. I understand that some people think the Rorq should've been relegated to Fleet boosting purely and mining to only a tiny degree, but this is the world we live in now and this is the meta we live in now. We have Rorqual mining and we have excavators and Rorqual mining is here to stay like it or not.

Finally, and it rots me to the core to say it, I don't think CCP wants to change the meta around multiboxxing. The change in the distribution of ores means that you're repositioning more in your rorqual compared to a mining barge, the nerfs to the rorqual mean a barge will get the job done eventually. But ultimately, and most pressingly;

More multiboxxing accounts = more subscriptions = more $ for CCP. Its a hard truth to swallow, sure, but the route CCP has taken comes across as if they subtly want to continue this trend. Why would CCP ever want to cull on multiboxxers? They're CCP's best clients paying (either with isk or IRL$) the most compared to the average player.

All I have to say is that I think CCP is taking the nerf route that will not fix the core of the problem present with the Ore economy currently, and need to take a hard look at how multibox mining is effecting the game. The respawn timers are a step in the right direction and I have hope that CCP will continue to look towards improving the game in this regard.


(End Post)
Nessto Lombardi
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#268 - 2017-06-02 07:14:37 UTC
Don't suppress the battles to come

you just bought new servers

Let the rorqs mine....

while ur at it lift the ice belt spawn time

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks.
We continue to keep a close eye on the impacts of the changes to mining ships that have been made over the past six months. After this observation we have decided that we need to make another intervention to keep the economy healthy. This isn't the first of such changes, and once again it is unlikely to be the last.

In the June release we are making a few targeted changes to Nullsec Asteroid Clusters (the ore anomalies created by the Ore Prospecting Array upgrade) and Excavator drones.

Firstly, we are adding a respawn cooldown to all Asteroid Cluster anomalies. This cooldown scales based on the size of the anomaly:
  • 20 minutes for the Small Asteroid Cluster
  • 1 hour for the Medium Asteroid Cluster
  • 2 hours for the Large Asteroid Cluster variants
  • 4 hours for the Enormous Asteroid Cluster variants
  • 5 hours for the Colossal Asteroid Cluster variants

These changes will only have a significant impact on the absolute busiest nullsec mining systems. The vast majority of nullsec miners will not be negatively impacted. The pilots mining in those few extremely busy systems will have the option of staggering when they mine, or simply spreading out to a few extra systems.

We are also making some more small adjustments to the Excavator drones themselves. In June the changes are:
  • About 9% less yield for Ore Excavators
  • 12.5% lower speed for Ore Excavators
  • About 11% longer cycle time for Ice Excavators
  • 10% lower speed for Ice Excavators


We will continue observing the economy after these changes and making adjustments as necessary to keep it healthy for all our players.
Roostur
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#269 - 2017-06-02 07:25:51 UTC
CCP when are you going to figure out you can't control a player driven economy that's open to speculation. I have seen you try this tactic many times since 2006 and fail every time. How many more times can you continue to suck the joy out of the hands of the player base before people go somewhere else? Do you and the staff at CCP games even bother to play EVE to see if its fun? Between the current Sov mechanic, citadel mechanic, lets not forget the jump mechanic and the constant hammering to any ship that might be considered overpowered to some and fine for others. Very soon players are going to realize the game is not worth the effort because its no longer entertaining. Just remember I pay for a subscription to be entertained and I can take my money someplace else.
korey mason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#270 - 2017-06-02 07:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: korey mason
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:
Nasar Vyron wrote:
TLDR : should have always been Rorq = boost/utility ship, XYZ=micromanaged capital mining vessel. But since CCP felt the need to make the Rorq and actual mining vessel all this has turned into is a bait and switch to the players who invested in them.



I said it before Rorq ever came out. I'll say it again.

The Rorq should have had it's build cost reduced to that of a carrier. It should have only ever had 1 hulk worth of mining capabilities (rigs should not have effected excavators-i was actually against excavators altogether). The Industrial core should have never locked you in place, prevented jumping but not warping. This would have prevented infinite scaling and kept it as a boosting/utility mining vessel.

At the same time they should have released an actual capital mining vessel around the cost of a Dreadnought. This ship would have been given the ability to mine the equivalent of around 5 hulks by use of a single mining laser. Use would have activated a minigame type window where you had to actively guide the laser to keep it centered on the asteroid to successfully mine. Basically the longer the laser is kept centered the higher yield obtained. Which would have prevented the infinite scaling issues we see today while rewarding the individual players who took the time to skill into these ships.

So, that said, at this point the constant nerfing just feels like more and more of a bait and switch to those who skilled into a Rorq. These mistakes in balance and scalability were pointed out before their release but to a deaf ear. Now they are out and constantly getting nefed, and surprise surprise people are upset because you promised them one thing and are constantly taking that away bit by bit.


When does CCP ever listen to the warnings their playerbase gives them about imbalanced stuff?


I love this so much actually. Unfortunate that when I attempted to voice the opinion I just had the entirety of the eve online reddit bombard me with salt and flame. Granted, my idea didn't involve the rest and only covered the concept of an actual mining vessel and not some patch work freight with ridiculously broken mining drones. I actually believe mining would be better off if they scrapped the boosting mechanic and started from the ground up, WITHOUT the boosting. Delete the Rorq, give a server wide SRP to characters that have rorq's (enough to cover the hull) + automatically activate everyones insurance on it, the same for people with excavators, and start from there.
Saltine
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#271 - 2017-06-02 07:43:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks.
We continue to keep a close eye on the impacts of the changes to mining ships that have been made over the past six months. After this observation we have decided that we need to make another intervention to keep the economy healthy. This isn't the first of such changes, and once again it is unlikely to be the last.

In the June release we are making a few targeted changes to Nullsec Asteroid Clusters (the ore anomalies created by the Ore Prospecting Array upgrade) and Excavator drones.

Firstly, we are adding a respawn cooldown to all Asteroid Cluster anomalies. This cooldown scales based on the size of the anomaly:
  • 20 minutes for the Small Asteroid Cluster
  • 1 hour for the Medium Asteroid Cluster
  • 2 hours for the Large Asteroid Cluster variants
  • 4 hours for the Enormous Asteroid Cluster variants
  • 5 hours for the Colossal Asteroid Cluster variants

These changes will only have a significant impact on the absolute busiest nullsec mining systems. The vast majority of nullsec miners will not be negatively impacted. The pilots mining in those few extremely busy systems will have the option of staggering when they mine, or simply spreading out to a few extra systems.

We are also making some more small adjustments to the Excavator drones themselves. In June the changes are:
  • About 9% less yield for Ore Excavators
  • 12.5% lower speed for Ore Excavators
  • About 11% longer cycle time for Ice Excavators
  • 10% lower speed for Ice Excavators


We will continue observing the economy after these changes and making adjustments as necessary to keep it healthy for all our players.



You know Fozzie, people are not mad at the stat's, they are mad at the continued nerfing, people invest time and money, and your inability to balance before launch shows a complete disregard for the people that fund your dream job, When you release a patch or a ship update it shouldnt ever require 4 nerfs with a threat of more.

You and by association CCP, show zero regard for the people and the community.
Cpt Soban
Alcoholocaust.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#272 - 2017-06-02 07:50:45 UTC
:munch:

All the mad goons in here, it's amazing.
Father Chamo
Iron.Guard
NullSechnaya Sholupen
#273 - 2017-06-02 08:09:14 UTC
With how fat the 'excavator' drones are take a look at the ehp of the drones so that the speed reduction doesn't allow for rats to decimate them at the current cost of 1B isk each but still allow for pvpers to kill them. Though I guess having rats chew through all the drones would fix your ore supply issues.....
King Voodoo
Therapy.
Evictus.
#274 - 2017-06-02 08:20:16 UTC
Well nobody has to fight anymore. They removed grinding structures to grind structures with a damage cap and 3 timers. Now they are removing poses. So less ships are lost squabbling over resources. And then they say there is too much ORE in the system after releasing the rorqual and making it have to be on grid to give links. Now they nerf it to oblivion and the sites that cause the only content to save the "market" Too many people plexing their toons and not enough credit cards swiping, hmm let's nerf mining more so all of those dudes quit playing. LOL Irony at it's best.
Trixi Laminer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#275 - 2017-06-02 08:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Trixi Laminer
This looks like a hard nerf to the poor goons and pL folks but if you guys keep nerfing the rorqual and its drones more people might get upset and not mine.
I don't think this nerf is going to do too much in the big picture concidering the huge numbers of players that are in nullsec.

To soften the effects of nerfing the teeth out of the rorqual you could maybe add new raw resource types that can be mined to build new stuff? Smile
Tara Read
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#276 - 2017-06-02 08:31:28 UTC
Dear CCP Fozzie,

I have played this game since 2004. As a player of a multi million dollar media empire with its own website, t shirt brand, and twitch stream I cannot tell you how boiling mad I am at the changes you are making. I've suffered through this game for over 10 years now and I have to say HOW DARE YOU. I pay for my seven subscriptions with real currency. Sitting in a Colossal for hours upon end as I hear the soft cheerful humming of my excavator drones brought a smile to my life of bleak sadness and misery. When I heard about the changes to the Blood Raider capitals and how to aquire them I became severely depressed and sad.

I developed a condition known as PTSD (Post Traumatic Sotiyo Disorder) and played "Below The Asteroids" on repeat until I cried myself into a stupor. Thanks to YOU sir now I cannot cheer myself up hearing the happy sound of my drones crunching away at asteroids 24/7 with my fellow Coalition mates. I had 25,000 friends 24/7. Now I'll only be able to socialize 5 times in a 24 hour period with them about the fluctuating value of Spod rocks.

I will GLADLY take my hard earned money and put it elsewhere into a game that has such amazing replayability and unique player driven content like World Of Warcraft. Did you know I can craft my own Legendary and call it Molok? GEE WOULDN'T IT BE NICE TO GET A REAL MOLOK AS EASY AS THIS HUH? I mean what the heck? I'm literally shivering and my jowles are flapping in silent fury. This will not go unnoticed oh no. The friendship boat has sailed. We do not forget. The sound of our wings buzzing in unison will drown out all opposition. WE WILL NOT SUFFER THIS OUTRAGE.
CPT Vladizmas
ScumLord Excavation and Evisceration
Scumlords
#277 - 2017-06-02 08:49:24 UTC
i am very salty about this, you guys made rorqs too stronk, limit them to 2 excavators please or i quit EvilEvilEvilEvil
Soldier Forrester
This Game Is Terrible
Warlords of the Deep
#278 - 2017-06-02 08:54:40 UTC
these goon tears are delicous - thank you! Good change
Dream Green
Dampier Holding
#279 - 2017-06-02 08:59:05 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Firstly, we are adding a respawn cooldown to all Asteroid Cluster anomalies. This cooldown scales based on the size of the anomaly:
  • 20 minutes for the Small Asteroid Cluster
  • 1 hour for the Medium Asteroid Cluster
  • 2 hours for the Large Asteroid Cluster variants
  • 4 hours for the Enormous Asteroid Cluster variants
  • 5 hours for the Colossal Asteroid Cluster variants

These changes will only have a significant impact on the absolute busiest nullsec mining systems. The vast majority of nullsec miners will not be negatively impacted. The pilots mining in those few extremely busy systems will have the option of staggering when they mine, or simply spreading out to a few extra systems.


so basically you are saying miners are too lazy to move to the neighbouring system to keep mining so you making this change... seems legit
Zapp McDouche
Black Spot on Parchment
#280 - 2017-06-02 09:04:53 UTC
This is similar mechanics like ice mining, since the belts despawn and wont come back until x amount of hours.
What if all mining belts will be like this? Big smile