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The Federal Frontier: A new Federation-focused Capsuleer news site

Author
Julianus Soter
Moira.
Villore Accords
#301 - 2017-05-15 05:33:38 UTC
Well, whichever venue you choose, I suppose then, Ayallah. *chuckles*.

But yes, it would be interesting to get a viewpoint from several nullsec alliances on this issue.

Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#302 - 2017-05-15 12:19:56 UTC
Looking for 'the' answer will only give you wrong ones. For all our perceived power, capsuleers are still fundamentally human in the way our minds work. Even the oldest of us still function in basically the same way as everyone else. We have a bit more agency and mobility (in terms of being able to pick up and relocate when we feel a need for a change) than some, and we have our share of sociopaths, but by and large, in the ways we congregate, organize, and work together, we're just people.

And that means that different solutions work at different scales. What can work for a small group of 10-100 of us wouldn't necessarily work for a medium-sized organization like Pandemic Legion (since they've been volunteered by one of their members as an example). And PL's very loose organizational style isn't really sustainable at much more than their current size—which they've been at or about for some time now. That's why organizations like Waffles and Pandemic Horde exist; the larger 'PanFam' isn't nearly the pure meritocracy that Pandemic Legion is... because it really can't be.

Don't take that as any kind of insult, either. Pandemic Legion is very good at what they do, and I'm not sure many other groups in New Eden could pull off that decentralized organizational chart, even at the same size. Which is another difficulty in assessing the effectiveness of different organizational structures for capsuleers: the same structure that works well for one group of 5,000 eggers won't always work for another. Culture matters. The way people interact, the expectations that they have and the things that are expected of them... those all contribute.

So the chances of finding 'the' answer is kind of like the chances of finding 'the' definitive answer to 'which spiritual framework in New Eden is right?'

There is no one answer. There's only the answer that works for your group, right now.
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
Villore Accords
#303 - 2017-05-15 16:21:37 UTC
Julianus Soter wrote:
perhaps on your own media venue?


You mean on Crossing Zebras? I have heard it said that this outlet is firmly in hands of Pandemic Legion capsuleers and their sympathisers Blink
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
#304 - 2017-05-15 16:45:02 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Looking for 'the' answer will only give you wrong ones. For all our perceived power, capsuleers are still fundamentally human in the way our minds work. Even the oldest of us still function in basically the same way as everyone else. We have a bit more agency and mobility (in terms of being able to pick up and relocate when we feel a need for a change) than some, and we have our share of sociopaths, but by and large, in the ways we congregate, organize, and work together, we're just people.

And that means that different solutions work at different scales. What can work for a small group of 10-100 of us wouldn't necessarily work for a medium-sized organization like Pandemic Legion (since they've been volunteered by one of their members as an example). And PL's very loose organizational style isn't really sustainable at much more than their current size—which they've been at or about for some time now. That's why organizations like Waffles and Pandemic Horde exist; the larger 'PanFam' isn't nearly the pure meritocracy that Pandemic Legion is... because it really can't be.

Don't take that as any kind of insult, either. Pandemic Legion is very good at what they do, and I'm not sure many other groups in New Eden could pull off that decentralized organizational chart, even at the same size. Which is another difficulty in assessing the effectiveness of different organizational structures for capsuleers: the same structure that works well for one group of 5,000 eggers won't always work for another. Culture matters. The way people interact, the expectations that they have and the things that are expected of them... those all contribute.

So the chances of finding 'the' answer is kind of like the chances of finding 'the' definitive answer to 'which spiritual framework in New Eden is right?'

There is no one answer. There's only the answer that works for your group, right now.


Agreed.

For me, a big part of these questions on the civilization level is what will stand the test of time. Any society can prosper for a while under a single philosopher king, but beware the heir, or the creep of arrogance leading to a profound failure. PL's system is neat, but also seems unstable-- it's maybe too dependent on the individual personalities and perspectives running it at any given moment to last for more than a few decades.

That's maybe not such a problem as long as we remain servants to larger societies, but it'll be a REAL issue if we ever wind up (gods forbid) with a, uh, "podocracy."

("Eggocracy?" "Capsulecracy?")

("Apolcalyptocracy?"-- humanity effectively ruled by the tides of ceaseless war in the heavens as everything tilts towards collapse?)

("Kakitocracy?" We make lovely weapons, but I don't think we'd make good leaders for humanity at all. Looking forward to someone demonstrating otherwise somehow, though.)
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#305 - 2017-05-15 17:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Arrendis wrote:
PL's very loose organizational style isn't really sustainable at much more than their current size—which they've been at or about for some time now
I agree with everything you said, for sure Waffles and Horde use a more rigid director-focused style even though they still use some aspects of the meritocracy to an extent.

Only correction is that The Legion stays at or around 2500 to ensure an active, competent force. The leadership manner may be able sustain a greater number but the individual pilot skill will begin to break down. I am not sure there has ever been a test to see how far such a meritocracy will work effectively but I am sure that it goes quickly if the pilots are not good enough to contribute.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
For me, a big part of these questions on the civilization level is what will stand the test of time. Any society can prosper for a while under a single philosopher king, but beware the heir, or the creep of arrogance leading to a profound failure. PL's system is neat, but also seems unstable-- it's maybe too dependent on the individual personalities and perspectives running it at any given moment to last for more than a few decades.
It does rely on people to run it yes, but so does every organization. Our culture ensures that the most active, competent, and willing people are always refreshing those positions. It is designed from the start to make it almost impossible for PL to grind to a halt or 'burn out.'

Just to point out, Pandemic Legion is one of the oldest and most stable alliances in New Eden. It has undergone very little leadership shakeup, almost no cultural shift, and our mission has always been the same. Even the goons with their incredibly famous management structure have undergone more organizational changes than we have. (They obviously have many many times the pilots and therefore needs.) PL leadership is never inactive and we never want for FC's or scouts or logistics pilots or people to build for us.

I understand the sentiment of capsuleer organizations and their impermanence but for certain PL has endured much and for as long as anyone and is undoubtedly still in great shape. We have watched a lot of groups die off, people leave, and PL remain the same so I am certain that we are among the most enduring.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
#306 - 2017-05-15 18:13:41 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
For me, a big part of these questions on the civilization level is what will stand the test of time. Any society can prosper for a while under a single philosopher king, but beware the heir, or the creep of arrogance leading to a profound failure. PL's system is neat, but also seems unstable-- it's maybe too dependent on the individual personalities and perspectives running it at any given moment to last for more than a few decades.
It does rely on people to run it yes, but so does every organization. Our culture ensures that the most active, competent, and willing people are always refreshing those positions. It is designed from the start to make it almost impossible for PL to grind to a halt or 'burn out.'

Just to point out, Pandemic Legion is one of the oldest and most stable alliances in New Eden. It has undergone very little leadership shakeup, almost no cultural shift, and our mission has always been the same. Even the goons with their incredibly famous management structure have undergone more organizational changes than we have. (They obviously have many many times the pilots and therefore needs.) PL leadership is never inactive and we never want for FC's or scouts or logistics pilots or people to build for us.

I understand the sentiment of capsuleer organizations and their impermanence but for certain PL has endured much and for as long as anyone and is undoubtedly still in great shape. We have watched a lot of groups die off, people leave, and PL remain the same so I am certain that we are among the most enduring.


Well-- yes. And I'm not saying that it's not suitable for its purpose, Ms. Ayallah; it pretty clearly is.

What I'm making concerned noises over is the long-kinda-popular notion that we are, in some way, going to replace the empires-- that capsuleers are not merely weapons, but a class of incipient rulers.

PL's structure is great for a mercenary company: not a lot will suffer if it goes boom even in a pretty big way. If it became a large nation-state first, though....
Jason Galente
Temporary Insanity.
#307 - 2017-05-15 18:28:47 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
That´s kinda the thing. "Believe" but don´t practice. So it´s just words in the wind and then a lot of rationalizaiton to justify it, like every point you made after number 1.

People do what they do, i´m not judging. Just find it interesting to see the mental contortionism that people perform to avoid admiting such a clear thing.


Out of idle curiosity, which points do you think are rationalizations? You said 'every' point after (1) is a rationalization, so:

Do you think 'killing is bad, but killing to stop someone from killing is less bad' is a rationalization?
Do you think groups of humans don't have aggregate agendas?
Do you think different groups can't have conflicting agendas?
Do you think there is not broad agreement that it's better to resolve conflicts without killing everyone?
Do you think there is not broad agreement that people are imperfect?

How are each of these rationalizations? Additionally: which of those statements do you think people do not practice? (ie: (2) - do you believe people do not, in fact, put the belief that killing in self-defense or the defense of another is less objectionable than killing out of hand, into practice? If you believe they don't, how do you explain the legal availability of 'Self Defense' defenses in criminal prosecution?)

Also, as each of these is a relatively straightforward point, building on the previous points, what 'mental contortions' do you think are in evidence, and what do you think isn't being admitted?

We'll just start with those 5, we can get the other 4 (or 6, if we include 7a and 8a) after.



Things are things, i do not see right or wrong, just things and people creating their personal stories and makebelieves to give this dream meaning and context.

Remember: Whatever is, is right. It couldnt be otherwise.


What a lazy response. Typical of lazy moral subjectivism though. You're only saying that (or thinking that) because you don't want to tackle the nitty gritty details of the morality of killing people. Understandable, because as Arrendis showed it's quite the gargantuan task to break down if you're doing it earnestly, but if you're going to be like that, don't also grandstand and laugh at other people's necessary inconsistencies as they endeavor to do something that you skipped because it was too complicated and easier to take the nihilistic shortcut. It just makes you look pretentious and unintelligent at the same time.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
#308 - 2017-05-15 18:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Jason Galente wrote:
What a lazy response. Typical of lazy moral subjectivism though. You're only saying that (or thinking that) because you don't want to tackle the nitty gritty details of the morality of killing people. Understandable, because as Arrendis showed it's quite the gargantuan task to break down if you're doing it earnestly, but if you're going to be like that, don't also grandstand and laugh at other people's necessary inconsistencies as they endeavor to do something that you skipped because it was too complicated and easier to take the nihilistic shortcut. It just makes you look pretentious and unintelligent at the same time.


I agree, though she's not totally wrong. Death is kind of what we do. It's maybe not something to just be totally comfortable with just because "it's what we do," or "that's how it is," though.

Reality is as it is, but that by itself doesn't seem like it should give it moral weight in either direction. It might argue for a little caution in how vigorously we try to change it, though. Messing with stuff tends to make ripples.
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#309 - 2017-05-15 21:00:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Aria Jenneth wrote:
What I'm making concerned noises over is the long-kinda-popular notion that we are, in some way, going to replace the empires-- that capsuleers are not merely weapons, but a class of incipient rulers.

PL's structure is great for a mercenary company: not a lot will suffer if it goes boom even in a pretty big way. If it became a large nation-state first, though....
That is the fantasy of other alliances. Pandemic Legion already holds as much sway and territory as it wants in New Eden and always has. Remember mobility, flexibility, and aggression are core to our manner of warfare. While we will take over territory, ...in fact maybe more than anyone in New Eden as we do so with NC., we almost universally hand it over afterwards and simply tax or dictate. PL does not have interest in governing or building things that are static.

Far better to have influence in governments than to build a government no? Shadow governments are much harder to destroy after all. Again, being an empire unto themselves is the dream of maybe the Imperium or other capsuleer alliances. What you are saying is akin to how poor a fish would do on the surface of a star. It is just not an ambition we have or ever intend to pursue beyond influence and control.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#310 - 2017-05-15 21:25:15 UTC
Tarek Raimo wrote:
Julianus Soter wrote:
perhaps on your own media venue?


You mean on Crossing Zebras? I have heard it said that this outlet is firmly in hands of Pandemic Legion capsuleers and their sympathisers Blink


Only to the extent that it's operated by members. CZ is not a PL house organ.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#311 - 2017-05-15 21:45:53 UTC
Ayallah wrote:

Only correction is that The Legion stays at or around 2500 to ensure an active, competent force. The leadership manner may be able sustain a greater number but the individual pilot skill will begin to break down. I am not sure there has ever been a test to see how far such a meritocracy will work effectively but I am sure that it goes quickly if the pilots are not good enough to contribute.


I don't know if we're actually saying different things there, or just saying it differently. I think PL's leadership structure being effective relies, in some part, on maintaining that relatively lean, focused member-count. Get too many people who are just placeholders, or not active as combat polits, in effect, and you'll demoralize a fair number of the folks who want to excel. So you have members of PL using shell- and holding corps for their external activities, ascompared to say, Goonswarm, where someone like Gaara has a hundred or so miners working directly for him within the Alliance.

Quote:
Even the goons with their incredibly famous management structure have undergone more organizational changes than we have. (They obviously have many many times the pilots and therefore needs.)


And therein lies the reason, too: size. As we've grown, we've had to experiment with different things. I don't think we'll ever stop trying new structures and new approaches as we keep attempting to find the systems that best serve the needs of our membership.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#312 - 2017-05-15 21:53:55 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
That is the fantasy of other alliances. Pandemic Legion already holds as much sway and territory as it wants in New Eden and always has. Remember mobility, flexibility, and aggression are core to our manner of warfare. While we will take over territory, ...in fact maybe more than anyone in New Eden as we do so with NC., we almost universally hand it over afterwards and simply tax or dictate. PL does not have interest in governing or building things that are static.


Eh, I think you're being a little disingenuous there, Ayallah. The very fact that you're saying 'we'll take space, give it to other people, and make them pay taxes and dictate to them'.. that's governing. It's not good governance, but it's still governing, ruling. You just do it through holding alliances or let NC. handle the administrative workload.

Ruling from the shadows is still ruling, though.

And I think, Aria, anyone who things Capsuleers as a whole are a class of incipient rulers is overlooking one large fact:

Most capsuleers are much sheep-brained followers as the great masses of baseliners. They just sheeple along with bigger guns.
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#313 - 2017-05-16 02:00:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Arrendis wrote:

I don't know if we're actually saying different things there, or just saying it differently. I think PL's leadership structure being effective relies, in some part, on maintaining that relatively lean, focused member-count.
Yes, exactly.

However non-coms are not disallowed from being in the alliance as you suggest, it is more habit at this point. The important component is the combat pilots themselves, that is what is kept lean and pressed to be active and up-to-date. The combat pilots are what are looked at in monthly purges and audited regularly to ensure they conform to doctrine. One combat pilot being removed can have a whole wing of followers and attendants follow but the number of attendants is not important to anyone. We are very much bloated by these attendants, it is how you will see 100 members on grid but 2500 on DOTLAN. In those times every currently active combat pilot is almost guaranteed to be on grid.

A combat pilot can sponsor any number of non-coms if it is necessary but it it infrequently is. Keep in mind that a -10.0 ticker is a target as much as a shield, you do not really gain anything by moving an industrial wing into the alliance, it is easier to just keep your own organization intact and change access lists. Again, it is not disallowed to move them in if that is what you want.
Arrendis wrote:
Eh, I think you're being a little disingenuous there, Ayallah. The very fact that you're saying 'we'll take space, give it to other people, and make them pay taxes and dictate to them'.. that's governing. It's not good governance, but it's still governing, ruling. You just do it through holding alliances or let NC. handle the administrative workload.

Ruling from the shadows is still ruling, though.
It is an important distinction. Also we take far, far, more territory than we keep. It has been a trend that we will take regions and sections of space and then hand almost all of it off and have nothing else to do with it. The section we decide to keep we appoint others to dictate and rule and simply collect taxes and enforce treaties. This is very different from almost any other Alliance because it is designed from the beginning to be impermanent and transient. We are not looking for a people to integrate into the Legion or to integrate with us. We are not looking to do more for a government than ensure it meets our goals unless there is some other reason for doing so. When we leave there is no train of civilians to follow, nothing like Saranen where people who grew up under Imperium rule still feel a loyalty to it and travel alongside.

We foster an environment we desire and then leave when we want and no one within that environment will be associated with us in any way afterward. We are not building an Empire as much as enforcing a rule. The people remain and they remain separate. Yes, the administrative workload is shifted, but also the cultures do not touch. Right now there are many ethnic Caldari in Tenal who serve aboard our structures but when we leave, very few will come with us if any.

My point is we deal with senators, legislators, governments, not people. We do not care what form that government takes, who elected those legislators or what the magistrates goals may be past where they serve our goals in the area for the duration. There is a reason the Phage is our symbol: We takeover existing structures and adapt them, we "infect a host" we do not grow an organism. Phage derives from older language meaning "To devour."

Pandemic Legion does not want to create a government, we want the governments that others have built to conform to our needs. Where it does not we destroy and where it does we reinforce. Bribes and hostile takeovers, not elections. We harvest and create factories, the infrastructure we build is for our benefit. Not that we are not concerned with the needs of the conquered peoples, but only their actual needs in most cases. Anything else is usually the side project of a pilot within PL and not directed by the alliance. Human civil rights, standardized languages, culture, etc.. All outside the normal of what we care about. We are not liberators, we are conquerors. Liberation is a secondary effect, changes are a secondary effect and no government is a part of the Legion.

When it comes to the big four or the outer region powers it makes much more sense. We rent their infrastructure and conform to our own culture and standards. We hold influence over the governments, not the people. Protest against our occupation can be as common as not but it is not our problem unless it becomes our problem you know? The will of the people is barely the concern of the Legion, we operate from capital flotillas and supercapital fleets and rely primarily on direct application of force to accomplish our goals. Diplomacy is common of course but it is not our backbone.

Hopefully this has made it more clear. We are a very poor example of an alliance that would create an empire of its own. We will however have people in yours.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Julianus Soter
Moira.
Villore Accords
#314 - 2017-05-16 04:55:48 UTC
New, on the Federal Frontier: Foxholers Liberate Fortizar Containing Thousands of Slaves; GMVA Welcomed Back to FDU

A proud moment in my career as a capsuleer.

Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/

Julianus Soter
Moira.
Villore Accords
#315 - 2017-05-18 19:15:20 UTC
Today on the Federal Frontier, Tarek Raimo investigates the corrupting influence of the SDII and Mentas Blaque.

Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
#316 - 2017-05-18 20:47:43 UTC

I actually really like this one. Usually the thing that worries me the most about the Federation is when it starts doing stuff that seems to undermine its own foundations.

Also, now I really want to visit the Crystal Boulevard and study its design as an armored bunker!
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
Villore Accords
#317 - 2017-05-18 22:57:32 UTC
The military installation which is still down there should be decommissioned and the place turned into a museum and memorial that reminds us how even the most well-intentioned societies can go astray.

To use a civilian tourist attraction and thriving business district as a "human shield" is deeply amoral and in contradiction with the Federation's ideals.
James Syagrius
Reclamation
#318 - 2017-05-18 23:04:02 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

I actually really like this one. Usually the thing that worries me the most about the Federation is when it starts doing stuff that seems to undermine its own foundations.

Also, now I really want to visit the Crystal Boulevard and study its design as an armored bunker!
Yes, when your opponent actually tries to win it can be troubling.

But I agree, it was a well written if the wrong-headed article. The good people within the FIO make us safer day by day, despite occasional excesses.
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
Villore Accords
#319 - 2017-05-18 23:07:28 UTC
I would not dispute that there are professional and dedicated people within the FIO who want to serve the citizens of our nation. I just doubt that the highest decision-makers are a guarantee that they can do that. Instead I see a troubling trail of self-serving political manoeuvres.
Jason Galente
Temporary Insanity.
#320 - 2017-05-19 00:47:37 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

But I agree, it was a well written if the wrong-headed article. The good people within the FIO make us safer day by day, despite occasional excesses.


Hogwash.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost