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Please Remove 100% Target Jams From the Game.

Author
Xiozor
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#121 - 2017-05-14 11:34:34 UTC
ECM gives me no joy. I lost a Cerberus the other day because the enemy had a single Blackbird in their fleet, the only thing keeping me on the field were 2 interceptors and I was permajammed for the solid 2/3 minute fight, I finally got a lock as I was at half armour and got 2 shots off that put one of the interceptors into structure before I died. Would've been completely different if ECM wasn't total garbage.

I've been rallying/praying for ECM to be mutilated into irrelevance or removed for over a decade now. Doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#122 - 2017-05-14 12:05:47 UTC
So the enemy had 2 tackle, ewar and presumably dps ships vs 1 cerb. Now imagine ecm is gone but the enemy still has 3 brain cells and similar amount if ships. Instead of a blackbird they bring a celestis and put 4 sensor dampeners on you. You can't lock the ceptor scramming you at 10 km and there is 0 chance of rng allowing you to do so. Now people scream "nerf damps". Next step is logi, because if the enemy has 5 brain cells they will bring logistics and stay in logi range. You can shoot but you can't kill anything. See a pattern here?


How about an anti-ecm charge, loaded into the old sebo. Instead of running eccm script that only lessens the chance of next jam, using the module with charge loaded would break ecm/damp effect mid cycle (and consume the charge). Somewhat expensive, but cheap enough so solo roamers can carry them like navy cap boosters and have a chance to get on top of the falcon or blap tackle if they time it right.

??
Buggs LeRoach
DHCOx
#123 - 2017-05-14 15:36:44 UTC
Xiozor wrote:
ECM gives me no joy. I lost a Cerberus the other day because the enemy had a single Blackbird in their fleet, the only thing keeping me on the field were 2 interceptors and I was permajammed for the solid 2/3 minute fight, I finally got a lock as I was at half armour and got 2 shots off that put one of the interceptors into structure before I died. Would've been completely different if ECM wasn't total garbage.

I've been rallying/praying for ECM to be mutilated into irrelevance or removed for over a decade now. Doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon.


how pathetic , some of us become , grasping at any excuse , however flimsy , to explain away our own failures ..
there's 25 on your lossmail ..
not scouting ..
leroy in anyway ..
blame ecm ..
'i was permajammed , before i got a lock .. wtf is that ..? Big smile
it's pathetic crybabies like you , that give ecm a bad name .. Big smile

Salvos Rhoska
#124 - 2017-05-14 15:55:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Change ECM to 100% chance to increase the target's lock timers by a X%, and re-apply the current RNG roll (at a reduced rate) to instead break an existing lock on a lucky roll, to require a subsequent new delayed lock by the target.

This should get rid of permajam and yet maintain ECM usefulness even in 1v1.

Thus, instead of ECM preventing locks (which is crap), it will delay locks (for sure) and break locks (on RNG).
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#125 - 2017-05-14 18:07:39 UTC
Another idea, in addition to the one I proposed, is to make only dedicated ships be able to jam - dedicated ships which have no other offensive capability to do anything else other than jam (in other words, don't have DPS). This is at least 'fair' in the sense that if you want to disable a ship and prevent it from firing, you have to 'trade' a ship in the process.

I don't have so much of a problem with 2 ships jumping a single ship, and one disables his weapons while the other kills him. I do have a problem being jumped by a single ship, and having that single ship both perma-jam me, and also fire at me and kill me to boot.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#126 - 2017-05-14 18:15:37 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Change ECM to 100% chance to increase the target's lock timers by a X%, and re-apply the current RNG roll (at a reduced rate) to instead break an existing lock on a lucky roll, to require a subsequent new delayed lock by the target.

This should get rid of permajam and yet maintain ECM usefulness even in 1v1.

Thus, instead of ECM preventing locks (which is crap), it will delay locks (for sure) and break locks (on RNG).


I'd really like to see RNG thrown into the garbage.

What about this? Keep your idea the same, but no RNG. First cycle increases target's lock timer. Second cycle breaks target lock (and maybe jams for a bit). Repeat.

Or have them scriptable. You have increase target lock timer script, and target lock-breaking script. Target lock breaker has a relatively long cycle, and breaks target lock at the end of the cycle, maybe jamming for a bit after.

The cycle times and what not would have to be adjusted so no one is perma-jammed, and has at least some counter-play available.
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#127 - 2017-05-14 19:11:51 UTC
There is a fair bit of rng in turret systems and even in missiles (0.1s flight time gets converted into a chance to fly longer or shorter). Not to mention loot, warp mechanics and many more. So rng is everywhere but it has to be managed, at least a little.


include some sort of coefficient* that multiplied by sensor strength will determine the time you will be jam-free (so a bs has a chance to lock stuff before next round of jams).

*I hereby name this constant the Darth Jam
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#128 - 2017-05-14 19:21:33 UTC
Blade Darth wrote:

*I hereby name this constant the Darth Jam


The Darth Jam Coefficient (DJC).
Salvos Rhoska
#129 - 2017-05-14 21:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Change ECM to 100% chance to increase the target's lock timers by a X%, and re-apply the current RNG roll (at a reduced rate) to instead break an existing lock on a lucky roll, to require a subsequent new delayed lock by the target.

This should get rid of permajam and yet maintain ECM usefulness even in 1v1.

Thus, instead of ECM preventing locks (which is crap), it will delay locks (for sure) and break locks (on RNG).


I'd really like to see RNG thrown into the garbage.

What about this? Keep your idea the same, but no RNG. First cycle increases target's lock timer. Second cycle breaks target lock.


Id like to see RNG thrown away as well.

But in your proposal its a 100% chance of delay + a 100% delock on second cycle + an additional 100% chance of delay to re-target, rinse repeat.

Comparing that to the current RNG factor, thats instead 3x100% certainties that arguably make ECM even better overall at shutting down a target's targetting than now.

This could be counteracted by ECM cycling being reaaally slow, but that would just instead frustrate the ECM user.


As others have pointed out, there is a precedent of RNG already not only in projectiles (and drones), but also in the critical hits.

Swapping the RNG factor on ECM to causing a de-lock, whilst increasing the chance of a delayed lock to 100%, reasonably fairly equalises the use of ECM both for 1v1 and fleet engagements.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#130 - 2017-05-14 21:50:57 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Comparing that to the current RNG factor, thats instead 3x100% certainties that arguably make ECM even better overall at shutting down a target's targetting than now.


Well, I did say this:

Quote:

The cycle times and what not would have to be adjusted...


In other words, adjust the cycle time to get whatever nerf or buff effect you want. A guaranteed jam once every 5 minutes is a nerf to what we have now. A guaranteed jam once every second is a buff to what we have now. There is a lot of room to play with.

If people like RNG, that's fine with me I guess. But personally, I have no use for it. In the words of Einstein, "God doesn't play dice games."
Salvos Rhoska
#131 - 2017-05-14 21:57:51 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Snip.


You proposed a 100% chance of delay on lock in first cycle + 100% chance of delock on second cycle

That creates a perpetual cycle with 100% efficiency that far exceeds the current ECM situation.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#132 - 2017-05-14 22:47:20 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Snip.


You proposed a 100% chance of delay on lock in first cycle + 100% chance of delock on second cycle

That creates a perpetual cycle with 100% efficiency that far exceeds the current ECM situation.


Don't know why we are arguing about this. It certainly wasn't my intent.

Perhaps the confusion is here. I didn't intend for any effect (lock delay, lock break, jam, etc) to last the entire cycle. I intended a 'cooldown' effect to be built into each cycle. For instance, for guaranteed 'jam' or 'lock break,' you'd click the module, and it would start cycling. Towards the end of the cycle, the jam would occur. Or, you could have it at the beginning. But the point is, it would be EFFECT - COOLDOWN - EFFECT - COOLDOWN.

So obviously if a cycle lasts 10 minutes, then it DOESN'T "far exceed the current ECM situation." If a cycle lasts 1 second, then it does. Again I will say that the cycle time is adjustable, and there is a lot of room to play with here.
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2017-05-14 23:21:46 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Change ECM to 100% chance to increase the target's lock timers by a X%, and re-apply the current RNG roll (at a reduced rate) to instead break an existing lock on a lucky roll, to require a subsequent new delayed lock by the target.

This should get rid of permajam and yet maintain ECM usefulness even in 1v1.

Thus, instead of ECM preventing locks (which is crap), it will delay locks (for sure) and break locks (on RNG).


People in this thread trying to turn ECM into bad sensor dampening. Again. How many times can you blithely reintroduce the same bad idea.

Stay tuned for next weeks episode where someone complains about neuts and the same people all chime in trying to turn neuts into nos lite.

Wanda Fayne
#134 - 2017-05-15 00:18:13 UTC
This will help

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-