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T1 Manufacturing appears to be non-profit

Author
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#21 - 2017-05-09 19:32:11 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
If you are talking about items where ME 10 is an enormous amount of research, I often find there is more profit in reselling the ME 10 BPO, and reseraching a new one...

I personally don't like doing that, as the BPO market is small (inversely proportional to the BPO cost), and BPO effectively last forever, so the more you sell, the smaller the market gets.

Copies are a better idea.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2017-05-10 12:03:08 UTC
Sometimes I feel there is an unlimited sink of BPOs somewhere ... I made xx billions selling even unresearched BPOs at markup and the demand does not seem to decrease.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
#23 - 2017-05-10 18:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Messenger Of Truth
When I first started manufacturing I was plexing my account from T1 items! There's definitely profit to be had. What's profitable changes over time though, so making a spreadsheet or using EVEIPH is helpful.

Trade Hub Price Checker: stop.hammerti.me.uk/pricecheck

Visit "Haulers Channel" in game for all matters courier-related.

Structure name/system API: stop.hammerti.me.uk/api

James Zealot
BENEVOLENC3
The Watchmen.
#24 - 2017-05-10 22:00:33 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
How? Understanding the market and lots of research ... if you are too lazy, bad luck.


I feel that "understanding the market and lots of research" means a **** ton of invested time and effort. Some of us have lives, so I feel it's not 100% accurate/fair to say "too lazy, bad luck". You also need to understand more than one market/item at a time to make any real isk. You also need a nice bankroll to stockpile for when those particular items drop below a nice profit window/price. You also need to know people and source your materials wisely. All of that requires a lot of time and effort yes, and, again, some of us have lives outside of eve. I'm also pretty sure you didn't just acquire your knowledge over night or even a couple of weeks for that matter. Probably spent a considerable amount of hours researching. So it might be true in some cases that people are lazy, but most of the time, people have better **** to do with their time than sit in eve to monitor markets.
James Zealot
BENEVOLENC3
The Watchmen.
#25 - 2017-05-10 22:05:21 UTC
Do Little wrote:
First question to ask is "are there meta versions of this module that drop as mission loot?" If the answer is yes, the only purpose for the T1 module will be as input for the T2 manufacturing process. The meta versions are better and often cheaper than player built T1.

A second question to ask "is this consumable?" Stuff in Eve doesn't wear out or go obsolete.

T1 rigs are easy to make, 1 time use (you can't unfit them) and a lot of them are quite profitable. You're better off as a small producer since you can purchase small lots of salvage at backwater stations at a lower cost than buying from aggregators in trade hubs.

Containers and deployables like Mobile Depot are usually profitable so are some ammunition and charges.

Use a tool like https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/ to investigate products you're interested in.

Once you've made something, you need to pick a trade hub and sell it. Immediate sales to buy orders are convenient but not profitable (at least for the seller). You need to create a sell order and manage it. In general, the more steps in the value chain you participate in, the better your profit margins will be.

The important thing to remember is that Eve is a game, if you're enjoying yourself it really doesn't matter how much ISK you're making.



While I see a lot of these "T1 isn't profitable" posts, I do appreciate your effort here to help the person out. Enough input that it's not a **** comment, and yet you still leave something up to the person to figure out. Which can be a fun part of it all, though not always lol. Heed the advice of Do Little, he's very helpful.
ko-fox neburium
Aideron Robotics
#26 - 2017-05-11 02:07:48 UTC
James Zealot wrote:


I feel that "understanding the market and lots of research" means a **** ton of invested time and effort. Some of us have lives, so I feel it's not 100% accurate/fair to say "too lazy, bad luck". You also need to understand more than one market/item at a time to make any real isk. You also need a nice bankroll to stockpile for when those particular items drop below a nice profit window/price. You also need to know people and source your materials wisely. All of that requires a lot of time and effort yes, and, again, some of us have lives outside of eve. I'm also pretty sure you didn't just acquire your knowledge over night or even a couple of weeks for that matter. Probably spent a considerable amount of hours researching. So it might be true in some cases that people are lazy, but most of the time, people have better **** to do with their time than sit in eve to monitor markets.


Thank you !! lolSmile when i say to lazy, i mean i have work, family, other **** to do, and i cant spend pay for months only to live as a below average eve citizen ShockedSmile
KenFlorian
Knight Odds
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#27 - 2017-05-11 03:50:40 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Sometimes I feel there is an unlimited sink of BPOs somewhere ... I made xx billions selling even unresearched BPOs at markup and the demand does not seem to decrease.


Tipa,

Funny you should mention this....i was mulling this over on my commute this morning. Surely, in a game where there are not thousands of new subscribers every month that the market is surely saturated with, say, Orca BPOs at 10/20?

We know where Orca BPOs come from......but where do they go when they, 'pass away'?

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#28 - 2017-05-11 07:00:53 UTC
KenFlorian wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Sometimes I feel there is an unlimited sink of BPOs somewhere ... I made xx billions selling even unresearched BPOs at markup and the demand does not seem to decrease.


Tipa,

Funny you should mention this....i was mulling this over on my commute this morning. Surely, in a game where there are not thousands of new subscribers every month that the market is surely saturated with, say, Orca BPOs at 10/20?

We know where Orca BPOs come from......but where do they go when they, 'pass away'?




They wind up in loss malls, and ALOD articles.

A disturbing number get taken out by my friends in CODE.

Personally I only ever move BPOs in agile ships and even send a scout ahead. I flew a few capital module ME10 BPOs to Jita recently and was extremely careful.

Idiots actually stick these prints in freighters.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

erg cz
ErgoDron
#29 - 2017-05-11 08:58:31 UTC
Example: Maulus manufacturing costs in Vlillirier is 300 000. It sells for 1 500 000. Why? Because it is the FW trade hub. And FW is mostly about frigates. You can not buy a single Atron or Incursus there at the moment, cause they are all sold. And blown up 5 minutes later. So you can ask whatever reasonable price for them and even 2x building costs will be sold.

Sell stuff where people use it.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2017-05-11 10:51:20 UTC
James Zealot wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
How? Understanding the market and lots of research ... if you are too lazy, bad luck.


I feel that "understanding the market and lots of research" means a **** ton of invested time and effort. Some of us have lives, so I feel it's not 100% accurate/fair to say "too lazy, bad luck". You also need to understand more than one market/item at a time to make any real isk. You also need a nice bankroll to stockpile for when those particular items drop below a nice profit window/price. You also need to know people and source your materials wisely. All of that requires a lot of time and effort yes, and, again, some of us have lives outside of eve. I'm also pretty sure you didn't just acquire your knowledge over night or even a couple of weeks for that matter. Probably spent a considerable amount of hours researching. So it might be true in some cases that people are lazy, but most of the time, people have better **** to do with their time than sit in eve to monitor markets.

James, you should know better. The problem is, those kind of questions are asked over and over again, and there are dozen of quality answers from different people to it in this forum or on reddit, that I don't feel I can add more without revealing trade secrets, which of course I will not do, because my market performance depends heavily on the information advantage.

I'm my own NPC alt.

KenFlorian
Knight Odds
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#31 - 2017-05-11 13:26:55 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Personally I only ever move BPOs in agile ships and even send a scout ahead. I flew a few capital module ME10 BPOs to Jita recently and was extremely careful.

Idiots actually stick these prints in freighters.


The first time I bought a 800M BPO in Jita and moved it I made gate safes in _every_ high sec system between Jita and my destination and still I was terrified.
James Zealot
BENEVOLENC3
The Watchmen.
#32 - 2017-05-11 17:20:24 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
James Zealot wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
How? Understanding the market and lots of research ... if you are too lazy, bad luck.


I feel that "understanding the market and lots of research" means a **** ton of invested time and effort. Some of us have lives, so I feel it's not 100% accurate/fair to say "too lazy, bad luck". You also need to understand more than one market/item at a time to make any real isk. You also need a nice bankroll to stockpile for when those particular items drop below a nice profit window/price. You also need to know people and source your materials wisely. All of that requires a lot of time and effort yes, and, again, some of us have lives outside of eve. I'm also pretty sure you didn't just acquire your knowledge over night or even a couple of weeks for that matter. Probably spent a considerable amount of hours researching. So it might be true in some cases that people are lazy, but most of the time, people have better **** to do with their time than sit in eve to monitor markets.

James, you should know better. The problem is, those kind of questions are asked over and over again, and there are dozen of quality answers from different people to it in this forum or on reddit, that I don't feel I can add more without revealing trade secrets, which of course I will not do, because my market performance depends heavily on the information advantage.



lol I was feeling frisky and felt like typing :P
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#33 - 2017-05-11 23:55:16 UTC
KenFlorian wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Personally I only ever move BPOs in agile ships and even send a scout ahead. I flew a few capital module ME10 BPOs to Jita recently and was extremely careful.

Idiots actually stick these prints in freighters.


The first time I bought a 800M BPO in Jita and moved it I made gate safes in _every_ high sec system between Jita and my destination and still I was terrified.


Yep I bought a Megathron BPO when that was a lot of ISK for me and had to haul it to a highsec island for research. That was tense.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Careby
#34 - 2017-05-12 12:57:33 UTC
Do Little wrote:
...Once you've made something, you need to pick a trade hub and sell it. Immediate sales to buy orders are convenient but not profitable (at least for the seller). You need to create a sell order and manage it. In general, the more steps in the value chain you participate in, the better your profit margins will be...


What you seem to be saying is that if you are a manufacturer, you need to also be a trader. While I agree there is often isk to be made in both roles, I find some value in figuring out exactly which "steps in the value chain" are most profitable, and even more importantly, which are most enjoyable.

A pure manufacturer would buy materials from market sell orders, and sell finished product to market buy orders. Please note that I am not suggesting pure manufacturing is the best idea for anyone, I'm only trying to separate the steps. If a manufacturer finds that materials can be obtained more cheaply by placing and managing buy orders, s/he has entered the realm of trading. Similarly, if s/he finds that more profit can be made on finished products by placing and managing sell orders, again that's trading.

Now on to the two points I want to make. First, if a manufacturing job is not profitable when buying from sell orders and selling to buy orders, and the manufacturer has to add trading to the mix in order to make a profit, then an important question arises. Is the manufacturing activity necessary or even helpful in making the profit? Maybe the manufacturing step can be skipped altogether, and those raw materials can be sold via sell orders, and the finished product can be obtained via buy orders. The manufacturer has then become a pure trader, which may be more profitable for the amount of effort spent.

The second point is enjoyment. Some players find a great deal of satisfaction in building things, and buying and selling are only a means to allow that satisfying activity to occur. Trading can be boring, and a lot of traders quickly burn out. I, for one, cannot station trade full time because I just do not enjoy it. So if manufacturing does not seem to be profitable, it may be because players find doing it worthwhile, even for little or no profit. On the other hand, lots of other players get their enjoyment from piling up profits, and are willing to focus on the activity that generates the most isk. It's all a matter of how you choose to spend your time.


Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#35 - 2017-05-12 17:49:09 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Yep I bought a Megathron BPO when that was a lot of ISK for me and had to haul it to a highsec island for research. That was tense.

Amateurs Blink

I took mine to NPC nulsec to research, typically Stain (avoided Curse as it is always active), as slots were always available there (before Crius expansion gave us infinite facility slots).
KenFlorian
Knight Odds
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#36 - 2017-05-12 19:05:59 UTC  |  Edited by: KenFlorian
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Yep I bought a Megathron BPO when that was a lot of ISK for me and had to haul it to a highsec island for research. That was tense.

Amateurs Blink

I took mine to NPC nulsec to research, typically Stain (avoided Curse as it is always active), as slots were always available there (before Crius expansion gave us infinite facility slots).


You swashbuckler, you. Pirate

At the time, 800M was probably 25% of my liquid assets....disproportionate purchase but it paid out.

Since that first one, I now have many in low sec.

Swashbuckler Pretender,

Ken
KenFlorian
Knight Odds
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#37 - 2017-05-12 19:40:59 UTC
@Sabriz,

Define "ALOD", please.

Noob Ken
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2017-05-12 19:44:34 UTC
ALOD = Awful Loss Of the Day

I'm my own NPC alt.

KenFlorian
Knight Odds
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#39 - 2017-05-12 20:23:32 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Yep I bought a Megathron BPO when that was a lot of ISK for me and had to haul it to a highsec island for research. That was tense.

Amateurs Blink

I took mine to NPC nulsec to research, typically Stain (avoided Curse as it is always active), as slots were always available there (before Crius expansion gave us infinite facility slots).


In order to establish my credentials as a "professional", I plan to drink a case of Gallentian ale, drop a small and naked POS in HED-GP, and put my 90+ day ME research projects in it.

That'll show ya, Tau.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#40 - 2017-05-13 01:54:20 UTC
Careby wrote:
Do Little wrote:
...Once you've made something, you need to pick a trade hub and sell it. Immediate sales to buy orders are convenient but not profitable (at least for the seller). You need to create a sell order and manage it. In general, the more steps in the value chain you participate in, the better your profit margins will be...


What you seem to be saying is that if you are a manufacturer, you need to also be a trader. While I agree there is often isk to be made in both roles, I find some value in figuring out exactly which "steps in the value chain" are most profitable, and even more importantly, which are most enjoyable.

A pure manufacturer would buy materials from market sell orders, and sell finished product to market buy orders. Please note that I am not suggesting pure manufacturing is the best idea for anyone, I'm only trying to separate the steps. If a manufacturer finds that materials can be obtained more cheaply by placing and managing buy orders, s/he has entered the realm of trading. Similarly, if s/he finds that more profit can be made on finished products by placing and managing sell orders, again that's trading.

Now on to the two points I want to make. First, if a manufacturing job is not profitable when buying from sell orders and selling to buy orders, and the manufacturer has to add trading to the mix in order to make a profit, then an important question arises. Is the manufacturing activity necessary or even helpful in making the profit? Maybe the manufacturing step can be skipped altogether, and those raw materials can be sold via sell orders, and the finished product can be obtained via buy orders. The manufacturer has then become a pure trader, which may be more profitable for the amount of effort spent.

The second point is enjoyment. Some players find a great deal of satisfaction in building things, and buying and selling are only a means to allow that satisfying activity to occur. Trading can be boring, and a lot of traders quickly burn out. I, for one, cannot station trade full time because I just do not enjoy it. So if manufacturing does not seem to be profitable, it may be because players find doing it worthwhile, even for little or no profit. On the other hand, lots of other players get their enjoyment from piling up profits, and are willing to focus on the activity that generates the most isk. It's all a matter of how you choose to spend your time.





While I agree with your accounting method, the benefit of combining both is that you learn a lot about where price changes are coming from.

Let's say you are a pure trader, and one module you deal in is Capital Shield Extender II. You've been buying these at 117m and selling at 130m, and you are happy.

Now assume also that Sustained Shield Emitters fall in price from 55000 per unit, down to 37000 per unit, perhaps due to a game mechanic change that increases supply for Ferrogel.

Surprise! Your buy orders for CSE2 get dumped on hard. Really hard. Prices fall, and you are stuck with 90 modules that you are selling at a loss at 110m.

If you were also producing CSE2s on the side, you'd have seen this drop coming, and you could have taken down your buy orders.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

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