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Safe spots compromised? Explain!
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Maxim Corvinus
Royal Armaments
#21 - 2017-05-08 10:18:09 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Maxim Corvinus wrote:

What you're stating is the equivalent of "well blasters have high dps so I removed 2 of my 5 blasters to make it a more fair fight"...

Nope, that's not the equivalent of what I stated. I stated "mechanics X, Y, and Z don't seem to be fun mechanics for many people."

Listen, I don't judge. If your idea of fun is boiling every encounter down to "already predestined to win/lose - outcome is already decided" have at it. Even better if you are on the winning side and can just perma-jam the other guy so he doesn't even attempt to waste his time on a lost/futile cause.

Perhaps we could ask for a feature where the game client automatically judges the outcome of the encounter so it doesn't have to play out. Actually, I'm not opposed to that.

This thread has derailed, but since I already got my answers, I'm okay with it.


Lets say you're in a war zone and there's a sniper on the roof at range looking down a long street. There's a few options you have:

a) stand out in the open and approach via the street
b) decide to use the cover of the housing to get close, then around and flank him
c) decide that based on the situation and your weapons this is not a fight you want to have and disengage

At least 2 of these choices have a predetermined outcome.

What you seem to want is a cage match with rules and regulations, what you're getting is open world freedom to choose and adapt.
Othran
Route One
#22 - 2017-05-08 11:10:28 UTC
The OP simply needs to get into the habit of NEVER warping to a tactical bookmark at zero - unless its an insta-dock bookmark of course.

Always assume that your bookmarks are compromised & warp in at range. It won't help if they've already got a bubble at your "safe" but most times they won't.

My money is on your "safes" being busted (probed down) on your previous visits. Repeated re-use of bookmarks on a regular basis is going to make this almost a certainty, especially if you've been getting chased around the system by them. They probably just waited until all your safes were busted before killing you.
Chewytowel Haklar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2017-05-08 11:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Chewytowel Haklar
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Maxim Corvinus wrote:

What you're stating is the equivalent of "well blasters have high dps so I removed 2 of my 5 blasters to make it a more fair fight"...

Nope, that's not the equivalent of what I stated. I stated "mechanics X, Y, and Z don't seem to be fun mechanics for many people."

Listen, I don't judge. If your idea of fun is boiling every encounter down to "already predestined to win/lose - outcome is already decided" have at it. Even better if you are on the winning side and can just perma-jam the other guy so he doesn't even attempt to waste his time on a lost/futile cause.

Perhaps we could ask for a feature where the game client automatically judges the outcome of the encounter so it doesn't have to play out. Actually, I'm not opposed to that.

This thread has derailed, but since I already got my answers, I'm okay with it.


I know this thread has derailed Asmodai, but I just wanted to bring up Red vs. Blue. It's something I've never joined but always wondered if I should give it a shot since it might show a player how to be better at small gang. As you can see from my KB I am absolutely terrible at pvp. I have a few solo kills here and there, but most of the kills were gang/fleet related.

It does suck to be out played and out skilled by so many pilots. Yet, there is probably a way to turn that around and learn to be better. I sympathize with your idea that loss of control sucks cause it does. There are ways to get better and control a fight somewhat however. I'm nowhere near being an elite solo pilot but maybe someone here might take you up under their wing and show you a few things.

Oh and besides cloaking, there are ways to also make it far more difficult and less likely to be scanned down. The closer you get your Target Size down to 1(sensor strength/signature radius) the more likely you are going to see combat scanner probes near you . Use 1/2 ECCM's to increase their need to move their probes in closer. I think this info is still current if you like being the camping harassing type.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#24 - 2017-05-08 12:38:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Maxim Corvinus wrote:


What you seem to want is a cage match with rules and regulations, what you're getting is open world freedom to choose and adapt.




Not trying to pick on the OP, but this is a common theme amongst people who complain about PVP in EVE. But PVP in EVE isn't suppsoed to be fair or even, in fact the game mechanics of pvp in EVE simply do not care whether a fight is fair or not.

This is fun for people who don't give a flip about 'fair fights'. The game basically says "do whatever you can/need to to win". If that means bringing a friend, alts, boosts, knowing the mechanics and using gate guns/concord/faction police/npcs etc to you advantage, you do that. This is probably the best description of EVE PVP i've ever seen lol.

The 1st step in surviving PVP in EVE is understanding all of the above. The most successful PVE players in the game also understand all of this and act accordingly (my 'mentor' was such a player, who knew EVERY trigger in every mission, anomaly and complex and would "save" a trigger for if someone warped in, he'd kill that trigger npc and roll the dice on npc aggro, most of the time he'd get away and the guy trying to PVP him would die or take serious damage getting away).


There are some people who just aren't the types that like the harsh and unforgiving nature of EVE's version of PVP and that's ok but that doesn't mean it should change. There are loads of 'arena pvp' style games out there, some of them with spaceships.
Asmodai Xodai
#25 - 2017-05-08 14:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodai Xodai
Maxim Corvinus wrote:
Lets say you're in a war zone and there's a sniper on the roof... What you seem to want is a cage match with rules and regulations, what you're getting is open world freedom to choose and adapt.


What I want is something that is simply more fun, rewarding, engaging, etc. than current PvP mechanics. If that was provided by the sniper on the roof scenario, it would be fine with me. If it was provided by the cage match scenario, that would be fine with me too. If it was provided by something else, that would be fine with me too.

Realistically, I've thought about it. It would probably be impossible to, at least in my mind, "improve" the PvP experience without totally rethinking and redoing all the base mechanics from scratch. For instance, I'd probably do away with all skills and skilling requirements altogether (just make it so that if you have enough ISK to buy it, you can fly it, you can use the module, etc). The skilling system seems to be good for two things only: 1) stratifying players into groups which artificially have advantages over other groups for no good reason, and 2) ensuring that a player keeps PLEXing month after month to get those skills up. Neither of these things is good for fun, good for PvP, etc. This change would put everyone on the same level playing field at least in that aspect (not in other ones). I'd also make other changes, like reduce the sharpness of counters, make things somewhat less "rock paper scissors," etc.

But the point is, I've thought about and accepted the fact that it would take too much radical change to get us away from the current PvP experience, and towards something "better" (more fun, etc). I'm against such a major overhaul, if for no other reason than if enough people enjoy the current system (or are just used to it), who am I to change it?

Jenn aSide wrote:
This is fun for people who don't give a flip about 'fair fights'. The game basically says "do whatever you can/need to to win".

That's perfectly fine, but just understand it encompasses the same mentality that says adults should play pee-wee football with schoolchildren, that chess grandmasters should be in competition with beginners, etc. I'm not opposed to you or whoever finding this fun - to each his own. Personally, I don't, and neither do most people, which is in fact why you have "leagues" in football, why you have stratifications in chess competitions, etc.

Quote:
There are some people who just aren't the types that like the harsh and unforgiving nature of EVE's version of PVP and that's ok but that doesn't mean it should change.

I agree. As I said it shouldn't change. But note that any objections have nothing to do with 'harsh and unforgiving.' There are plenty of people plenty tough enough to enjoy harsh and unforgiving. We'd just find it more of a challenge and more worthwhile if we weren't beating up on cripples and grandmothers, or being put in the role of cripples and grandmothers ourselves.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#26 - 2017-05-08 14:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Haven't you lot got something better to do in game then troll a player who is at least going out into dangerous space and playing the damn game. Your need to prove yourselves as master posters to bolster your own egos is pretty lame at the best of times but shite'ing on a player actually taking risk is especially lame. Roll

EDIT: Some people have actually been reasonable, and to my amazement I actually agree with Jenn on something again, Eve combat is not supposed to be fair, you stack the cards in your favour, but it can be especially galling to people who have a scrammed bang podded experience in very short order. I can say it is not always like that and it depends in what you are in, your skills and most importantly your fit.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#27 - 2017-05-08 14:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Asmodai Xodai wrote:


Jenn aSide wrote:
This is fun for people who don't give a flip about 'fair fights'. The game basically says "do whatever you can/need to to win".

That's perfectly fine, but just understand it encompasses the same mentality that says adults should play pee-wee football with schoolchildren, that chess grandmasters should be in competition with beginners, etc. I'm not opposed to you or whoever finding this fun - to each his own. Personally, I don't, and neither do most people, which is in fact why you have "leagues" in football, why you have stratifications in chess competitions, etc.


You are looking for ways to justify both your dislike and your inability. That's a mistake as are your expectations.

You are exactly supposed to beat up on old people and children in a game like this, yo're an immortal capsuleer who doesn't give a flip about mortals lol. But more seriously, EVE PVP is about winning or dying, there is no in between, no honor, no right except winning and no wrong except dying.

When you understand and embrace this, you start having fun. That's the end of the story.


Quote:

I agree. As I said it shouldn't change. But note that any objections have nothing to do with 'harsh and unforgiving.' There are plenty of people plenty tough enough to enjoy harsh and unforgiving. We'd just find it more of a challenge and more worthwhile if we weren't beating up on cripples and grandmothers, or being put in the role of cripples and grandmothers ourselves.


Once you stop looking at it the wrong way you will find a way to be better at it. I'll never be a good PVPr but I'm damn good at making PVPr's pay a price for screwing with my isk making, mainly because I EXPECT them to not only screw with me, but to do so in the most advantage seeking way (I once had a guy drop a NYX on my Vexor navy issue... no such thing as overkill in EVE).

So it FEELS GREAT when i beat them silly.
Chewytowel Haklar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2017-05-08 14:45:11 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Haven't you lot got something better to do in game then troll a player who is at least going out into dangerous space and playing the damn game. Your need to prove yourselves as master posters to bolster your own egos is pretty lame at the best of times but shite'ing on a player actually taking risk is especially lame. Roll

EDIT: Some people have actually been reasonable, and to my amazement I actually agree with Jenn on something again, Eve combat is not supposed to be fair, you stack the cards in your favour, but it can be especially galling to people who have a scrammed bang podded experience in very short order. I can say it is not always like that and it depends in what you are in, your skills and most importantly your fit.


I don't think anyone's been trolling, but simply trying to offer their own version of help or insight.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#29 - 2017-05-08 15:09:43 UTC
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Haven't you lot got something better to do in game then troll a player who is at least going out into dangerous space and playing the damn game. Your need to prove yourselves as master posters to bolster your own egos is pretty lame at the best of times but shite'ing on a player actually taking risk is especially lame. Roll

EDIT: Some people have actually been reasonable, and to my amazement I actually agree with Jenn on something again, Eve combat is not supposed to be fair, you stack the cards in your favour, but it can be especially galling to people who have a scrammed bang podded experience in very short order. I can say it is not always like that and it depends in what you are in, your skills and most importantly your fit.


I don't think anyone's been trolling, but simply trying to offer their own version of help or insight.


I might have been unfair to some of the posters, but as for your earlier post you should go and see what Gevlon Goblin wrote about RvB and what it really was when he analysed it, it might have changed but I doubt it. And by the way that was my view of RvB before he wrote about it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Asmodai Xodai
#30 - 2017-05-08 15:17:15 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
You are looking for ways to justify both your dislike and your inability.


I don't understand why I (or anyone else for that matter) would want to "justify" either. A "dislike" is simply a "dislike" and doesn't need to be justified. Neither does an "inability."

I think you are simply looking for a way to insult someone else, and in the process 1) feel better about yourself in so doing, and 2) climb up some kind of social standing ladder. This comes across with your penchant for saying things like "not everybody's tough like some of us EvE tough guys, not everybody's cut out for it, etc." Seems like your self esteem is wrapped up in being an "EvE tough guy" for lack of better words.

Hey, I'm not opposed to it. If you are getting some kind of benefit out of this, go for it.

Quote:
You are exactly supposed to beat up on old people and children...


I said to each his own. If this is considered challenging, rewarding, fun, etc. by many, then who am I to say otherwise?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#31 - 2017-05-08 17:47:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
You are looking for ways to justify both your dislike and your inability.


I don't understand why I (or anyone else for that matter) would want to "justify" either. A "dislike" is simply a "dislike" and doesn't need to be justified. Neither does an "inability."

I think you are simply looking for a way to insult someone else, and in the process 1) feel better about yourself in so doing, and 2) climb up some kind of social standing ladder. This comes across with your penchant for saying things like "not everybody's tough like some of us EvE tough guys, not everybody's cut out for it, etc." Seems like your self esteem is wrapped up in being an "EvE tough guy" for lack of better words.=


EVe tough guy. Sorry, you have me confused with Pandemic Legion lol.

But I can see how you think that way, as all I ever say is that if you are having such a big problem in a video game, perhaps you should be working on your mental toughness instead of complaining about how mean i'm being to you. Of the two of us, one of us made a thread whining about PVP and the other didn't, and I'm not even a pvp fanatic.

Every thread I've read from you is a complaint thread, and I'm simply pointing out that you are at the heart of your problems, not the game (no one is saying the game is perfect, but it is what it is and plenty of us adapt to what it is). The evidence of this is the many thousands of people playing the same game you and I are and they are both having fun and not complaining on the EVE forum about something.


Quote:

Quote:
You are exactly supposed to beat up on old people and children...


I said to each his own. If this is considered challenging, rewarding, fun, etc. by many, then who am I to say otherwise?


It's not considered anything. It's just the way the game is.

I've noticed something about complaint threads (and complainers in general). They don't seem to ask themselves some important questions. Like "is this something I like" and "I know I don't care for this, but can I at least tolerate it".

Something you wrote in another post is probably relevant. You said
Quote:
Personally, I don't, and neither do most people, which is in fact why you have "leagues" in football, why you have stratifications in chess competitions, etc.


You are trying to pvp, but did you ever ask yourself "Hmmm, do i like unstructured anything goes pvp competition or do I need structure and a level playing field"? Because to me it seems like you prefer the "level playing field" type action rather than the no holds barred thing that goes on in EVE.

That's why I linked you to a video of an Arena spaceship game, because something like that might suit your preferences better. I'm not saying don't play EVE if you like playing EVE, but you wouldn't be the 1st person who didn't like EVE PVP that plays EVE for other aspects (pve, industry, market stuff) while PVPing in structured PVP games they actually like more. My own best buddy in game plays some of those other games for pvp and avoids pvp when he can in EVE (though like me he don't take kindly to people interrupting his care-bearing and will blow you up if you do).
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#32 - 2017-05-08 17:53:54 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
I had been doing some ninja operations in a small wormhole for a while (meaning, months). The hole is 'owned' by some small (2 man) corp, but I've largely avoided them through the usage of lots of different safe spots I've created and have bookmarked, plus I never stick around long enough in the same spot to be located.

Yesterday I had just logged-in to the hole, and was doing 'something' (clicking on in-game mail, adjusting my interface, etc) when I heard the familiar alarm sound of being attacked. Closed whatever I had up and sure enough some frigate had warp scrambled me and was killing me. I calmly hovered my mouse over some celestial in the overview so I could right click and insta-warp out and not lose my pod, which is what I did. The second I landed at the celestial I quickly right-clicked one of my bookmarked safe spots, jumped there, and then jumped to another one "just in case."

After landing on the final safe spot I tugged my beard for a few seconds. I had only been logged-in literally for one minute (if that) before I was attacked. I reasoned that the guy must have somehow just been in the area by sheer luck when I logged-in, and he attacked me. "No biggie" I figured - I'd just click self-destruct on my pod, log back into the hole with one of my alt-spies, scan my way out, then scan back in with my main from the other side once I knew the wormhole's location.

I had been at my new safe spot for less than a minute, and the whole time I was thinking all of this, I had d-scan open, I was staring at it, and I was clicking it once a second. I was making sure there were no probes that were scanning me down, although even if there were, I had already decided to self-destruct anyway. When all of a sudden the same frigate just appears out of nowhere, scrambles my pod, and saves me the effort of self-destructing.

My question is, how did he track me down 1) so fast, and 2) without my seeing any probes? Is there some mechanic I'm not understanding? My understanding is that there would need to be combat probes, and that I would see them on d-scan. Is this true?

The only thing I could come up with was that this guy had been watching me for a while (meaning weeks) and had been following me around secretly while cloaked (he WAS using a "warp while cloaked" hull + module), and he had already cataloged either all of my safe spots, or at least some of them.

1) Is this a "thing?" Forgoing an opportunity to kill someone right away, and instead follow them around for weeks or longer, cataloging safe spots, and THEN attacking later?

2) Is there some other explanation? Something I'm missing?


What people can do is set up probes off D-scan for you at the strongest level, he will then warp to where he expects you to be in D-scan range in something cloaky, he will narrow it down by use of the D-scan then he will send probes, scan then pull them out then warp in something on you. I am assuming that you were not cloaked of course.




Take heed folks. Dracvlad has been known to hunt and kill AFK cloakers and even manages to find out what "other game" they are playing while they cloak and infiltrate their "guild/corp/clan/etc". I'm afraid of him even IRL.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Asmodai Xodai
#33 - 2017-05-08 18:16:35 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

But I can see how you think that way, as all I ever say is that if you are having such a big problem in a video game, perhaps you should be working on your mental toughness instead of complaining about how mean i'm being to you.


I complained about how mean you are being to me? Are you sure you're reading the right post? If it helps, let me be explicit:
Please, by all means... be as mean to me as you want.

Quote:
Of the two of us, one of us made a thread whining about PVP and the other didn't, and I'm not even a pvp fanatic.


That's funny... could have sworn I made a thread asking how safe spots might be compromised.

Quote:
Every thread I've read from you is a complaint thread...


Every response I've ever read from you is an attack response or a troll response, or a response claiming someone is doing X (making a whine post, complaining, etc) when he is in fact doing Y. So much that I normally try to skip over or avoid your responses altogether. But sometimes I forget.

Either way, do what you want. It's on me to avoid what I consider to be boring or useless drivel on forums.

Quote:
I've noticed something about complaint threads (and complainers in general). They don't seem to ask themselves some important questions. Like...


I didn't come here for psychoanalysis, life advice, etc. But thanks for offering.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#34 - 2017-05-08 18:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Asmodai Xodai wrote:

I didn't come here for psychoanalysis, life advice, etc. But thanks for offering.


No one is offering you life advice. YOU, Asmodai Xodai, are so disenchanted with pvp (because you exploded) that you liken EVE pvp to beating cripples. It's actually not, unless you cripple yourself by pve'ing in dangerous space in a ship that is badly fit and not meant to survive.

Look at your own words in this post, no kills, 1000 deaths (which turned out to be 57). That's clear evidence that you are doing something wrong or looking at it the wrong way. People are trying to help you, and my part in that is pointing out that the heart of your problem is how you are thinking about all of it. And no, there is no nice way to say some of this.

Other players, doing the same thing you are doing, and not dying every time someone shows up on grid (and not posting about it on a forum...). Don't you think you should be figuring out why that is?
Asmodai Xodai
#35 - 2017-05-08 19:12:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodai Xodai
Jenn aSide wrote:

No one is offering you life advice.


Could have sworn that was you.

Quote:

YOU, Asmodai Xodai, are so disenchanted with pvp (because you exploded)...


1) I'm not disenchanted with anything.

2) The OP was on safe spots, not PvP.

3) Exploding is a non-issue. I explode all of the time. I explode myself often, because I don't feel like traveling from point A to point B. Fun is an issue - or at least my issue. I critiqued the current PvP mechanic, and made comments as to how it could (theoretically, not practically) be made better. You felt threatened and butthurt by my critique, because you identify with being an EvE tough guy, an EvE forum warrior, a grissled EvE vet, or whatever who is out to prove his EvE social status by trolling anyone he can on the forums in an attempt to make himself look better.

Quote:
... that you liken EVE pvp to beating cripples.


I likened a system which advantages and disadvantages groups of people artificially by use of skill points, and then pits those groups against each other, as beating cripples. You even agreed, saying beating cripples and grannies is perfectly fine (in a game context that is - I won't do you the same disservice you do me by implying you meant it in any other context).

I spent more time correcting your lies and mischaracterizations than I did anything else. You are either too stupid to understand written English, too much of a troll to be worth responding to, or both.
Chewytowel Haklar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2017-05-08 19:40:33 UTC
I love this guy. I don't think you're gonna have much trouble enjoying this game your way sir/ma'am. Please carry on!

Asmodai 3
Jenn 0

/popcorn
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#37 - 2017-05-08 19:41:45 UTC
Ok man, you've chosen to keep having problems you could have avoided.. I'll keep enjoying EVE (while mostly not exploding thus giving joy to rabid pvp types you keep feeding) and waiting for the next thread from you about how awful something is and how the evil skill points are against you.

You really could be helped if you'd listen. Oh well.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#38 - 2017-05-08 19:47:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:
I love this guy. I don't think you're gonna have much trouble enjoying this game your way sir/ma'am. Please carry on!

Asmodai 3
Jenn 0

/popcorn



I do notice that you two have a lot in common though, aren't most of your threads complaints about stuff as well?

I'm really not trying to pick on you two, but like I said there is no nice way to say it. Some people are misfits who bring troubles and frustrations upon themselves when they don't need to, even in a video game. It boggles my mind, because isn't the point of all this to have fun? I play EVE most nights (same game you two are playing) as a rat shootin, loot gettin PVE player and I'm having a blast, and have been for a decade (the 21st of next month makes 10 years).

I don't get why people play games that frustrate them so much.
Chewytowel Haklar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2017-05-08 20:09:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:
I love this guy. I don't think you're gonna have much trouble enjoying this game your way sir/ma'am. Please carry on!

Asmodai 3
Jenn 0

/popcorn



I do notice that you two have a lot in common though, aren't most of your threads complaints about stuff as well?

I'm really not trying to pick on you two, but like I said there is no nice way to say it. Some people are misfits who bring troubles and frustrations upon themselves when they don't need to, even in a video game. It boggles my mind, because isn't the point of all this to have fun? I play EVE most nights (same game you two are playing) as a rat shootin, loot gettin PVE player and I'm having a blast, and have been for a decade (the 21st of next month makes 10 years).

I don't get why people play games that frustrate them so much.


Well that is simple, I play Eve because it isn't fun.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#40 - 2017-05-08 20:18:59 UTC
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:

/popcorn
I think I'll join you. This thread is starting to get interesting.

Mr Epeen Cool
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