These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

A short announcement related to TD involvement in Kyonoke attacks.

Author
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#101 - 2017-05-07 21:10:38 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Keep in mind that Ria is just a liar, who claimed that I would execute people "for being ethnic Gallente"


Especially since now it's obvious you'll support dropping biological weapons on civilian populations even within the State.

Which is an utter lie, that only idiots will believe. Of course I don't support that crap and claiming that doesn't make you look smart at all.

Really, goon. If you have nothing to say of value, don't say anything. You're only making yourself look unreasonable, though, on the other hand, your organization already grants you this status.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#102 - 2017-05-07 21:24:24 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:

For those following along at home, Diana Kim may just also have called herself a liar or a pro-Gallante propagandist, then, considering that Ria Nieyli's post links to Diana Kim herself posting what appears to be a video of her crew killing ethnic Gallente at her order.

Dear reader, please keep in mind, that Makoto is a liar and slanderer who has lost her honor.
She was caught before here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381560
And she has been caught right here again. It is pretty obvious from the provided link that the people of gallente ethnic were executed for crimes they have committed, not for "being Gallente" (their tribunal proceedings are still available in the archive). They have been sentenced in accordance with Caldari State laws and Navy regulations.

Makoto Priano wrote:

If Kim weren't such a coward...

As we can see from the previous thread I've linked, Makoto has lost all privilege to call others cowards after her outrageous cowardice.

Moreover, you all can see now inconsistency in lies. My public combat record, just as her, are available for everyone to see. Just as my fights even with way stronger opponents (like Templar) are now public knowledge.

Makoto can hiss and spew her venom around herself like a toothless snake, but she can't stand against facts and honor of Caldari Officers.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Yoshitaka Moromuo
Burning Skies
Apocalypse Now.
#103 - 2017-05-07 21:27:05 UTC
Your propensity to attack the source of claims, rather than the claims themselves, is speaking volumes of your character.

I'll say nothing more on the subject.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#104 - 2017-05-07 21:32:52 UTC
Yoshitaka Moromuo wrote:
Your propensity to attack the source of claims, rather than the claims themselves, is speaking volumes of your character.

I'll say nothing more on the subject.

They were already known liars. I don't really need to defend against every delusion and sick lie that a known enemy of Caldari State and known liar spreads. I just point out they are liars and why.

This isn't a court, nor I commit any crime to answer for anything to anybody. It was their obligation to prove their words. They didn't.

Accusation without charge and proof is nothing but a slander. And a "proof" of committing "A" when they claim "B" (like this liar Ria) obviously doesn't count.

So I just show them their place.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#105 - 2017-05-07 21:41:49 UTC
Now, all these trolls aside - and to return back to the discussion.

I have to admit - I did commit an infringement, that I can be accused of.

I have terminated contracts prematurely without legal reasons to do so. But I have paid the fine and compensation for committing it. Thus, I don't think that accusing me in this would have any value or weight anymore.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2017-05-07 21:52:29 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

It is pretty obvious from the provided link that the people of gallente ethnic were executed for crimes they have committed, not for "being Gallente" (their tribunal proceedings are still available in the archive). They have been sentenced in accordance with Caldari State laws and Navy regulations.


Let us imagine a similar video made by a Captain from the 24th Imperial Crusade who has captured a number of Tribal Liberation Force crews. In it, the captain is shown pronouncing judgement according to Theology Council edicts and the Imperial Navy's code of military justice, presumably all of these crews are "guilty" according to the pilot's interpretation of the law.

However, instead of executing everyone, the captain orders his security personnel to shoot only the Sebiestors.

Clearly, is an example of disparity in the sentencing process according to ethnicity. They were convicted for "crimes they have committed," but sentenced to death only for being Sebiestors.

Perhaps Strike Commander Kim should consult someone with actual legal expertise before her next round of executions. I know a number of legal scholars at the Institute who would be willing to offer their services to allied capsuleers.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#107 - 2017-05-07 21:55:06 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Yoshitaka Moromuo wrote:
Your propensity to attack the source of claims, rather than the claims themselves, is speaking volumes of your character.

I'll say nothing more on the subject.

They were already known liars. I don't really need to defend against every delusion and sick lie that a known enemy of Caldari State and known liar spreads. I just point out they are liars and why.

This isn't a court, nor I commit any crime to answer for anything to anybody. It was their obligation to prove their words. They didn't.

Accusation without charge and proof is nothing but a slander. And a "proof" of committing "A" when they claim "B" (like this liar Ria) obviously doesn't count.

So I just show them their place.

Oh, harboring a terrorist is a crime. That it definately is. Now the actual question is, does anyone have any actual proof that those she has laid off performed any terrorist acts? Planned any? No action or intention, no terrorist. Affiliations dont specifically make terrorists, bombs or plans to use bombs do. I've yet to see any proof saying any of her ex employees had either. Why is this still a discussion if no one has actual proof to push this issue? As much as I hate to admit it I'm defendig you, then again I'm a liar so what do I know?
Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2017-05-07 21:58:42 UTC
One presumes that Commander Kim's own admissions constitute evidence of crew members affiliation with the Dragonaurs. Statements in a public forum are admissible in every legal system in New Eden that I have studied.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#109 - 2017-05-07 22:03:09 UTC
Affiliation and action while one can lead to the other, are not the same thing.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#110 - 2017-05-07 22:06:41 UTC
Exactly.
Thank you, Ms. Vess.

I confirm once again, that none of my crew that either were discharged or stayed, have committed or participated themselves in any criminal acts or terror operations.

Those, who speak otherwise, they just spread slanders about Caldari Officers and Caldari Soldiers.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2017-05-07 22:11:10 UTC
Membership in, sometimes mere affiliation with, a banned terrorist organization is often a criminal offense itself. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?

Commander Kim herself made public the fact that her crews included these people, and that their affiliation was enough to dismiss them from employment. Arguing about whether her terrorist affiliated former crewpersons ever actually bombed anyone seems to be a red herring.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#112 - 2017-05-07 22:14:20 UTC
Nai Arto wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

It is pretty obvious from the provided link that the people of gallente ethnic were executed for crimes they have committed, not for "being Gallente" (their tribunal proceedings are still available in the archive). They have been sentenced in accordance with Caldari State laws and Navy regulations.


Let us imagine a similar video made by a Captain from the 24th Imperial Crusade who has captured a number of Tribal Liberation Force crews. In it, the captain is shown pronouncing judgement according to Theology Council edicts and the Imperial Navy's code of military justice, presumably all of these crews are "guilty" according to the pilot's interpretation of the law.

However, instead of executing everyone, the captain orders his security personnel to shoot only the Sebiestors.

Clearly, is an example of disparity in the sentencing process according to ethnicity. They were convicted for "crimes they have committed," but sentenced to death only for being Sebiestors.

Perhaps Strike Commander Kim should consult someone with actual legal expertise before her next round of executions. I know a number of legal scholars at the Institute who would be willing to offer their services to allied capsuleers.

Well, imagine you had a serial killer of Sebiestor bloodline.
You had a bunch of criminals who were sentenced to death and whom you need to execute.
Now add one plus one and say, what would you do to try to lure the killer out by doing something he would hate so much so he would try to pick you as a next target?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Nai Arto
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2017-05-07 22:33:02 UTC
Not disgrace myself with a public display of barbarity. If I were in military service, not disgrace my uniform and the State I claim to serve.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#114 - 2017-05-08 01:57:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Nai Arto wrote:
Not disgrace myself with a public display of barbarity. If I were in military service, not disgrace my uniform and the State I claim to serve.

But you have already disgraced yourself. Begone for now, until you will learn how to speak with your betters.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Ria Nieyli
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#115 - 2017-05-08 03:12:39 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Those, who speak otherwise, they just spread slanders about Caldari Officers and Caldari Soldiers.


In which case stop spreading slanders about me tia.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#116 - 2017-05-08 06:45:20 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Which is an utter lie, that only idiots will believe. Of course I don't support that crap and claiming that doesn't make you look smart at all.


You say that, but at the same time, the only crime the Dragonaurs have been charged with is terrorism. Most recently, for using a biological weapon on a Caldari city. And you say that's not a crime.

So... I dunno, Diana, looks pretty clear-cut from here.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#117 - 2017-05-08 06:49:31 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Affiliation and action while one can lead to the other, are not the same thing.


Not true. If any of those individuals gave money to the organization, and any money from the organization was used in the execution of terrorist acts, then they're legally co-conspirators.

Really, RICO laws are pretty clear about this all over the damned place.
TomHorn
Forlorn Avengers
Optimistic Wasteland
#118 - 2017-05-08 10:16:38 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Which is an utter lie, that only idiots will believe. Of course I don't support that crap and claiming that doesn't make you look smart at all.


You say that, but at the same time, the only crime the Dragonaurs have been charged with is terrorism. Most recently, for using a biological weapon on a Caldari city. And you say that's not a crime.

So... I dunno, Diana, looks pretty clear-cut from here.


That is not true , that is fake news. Someone infected by kyonoke and who became ill , which resulted in him crashing his ship on the planet, caused the outbreak, was not a terrorist attack.

They were placed on a terrorist list , yet they had not committed any such acts. It was political move by their opponents. Politics is dirty game.


Haru'kai Vidaraltyr
Oymak Batachikan
#119 - 2017-05-08 11:24:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Haru'kai Vidaraltyr
Reading this channel is fascinating. There appears to be quite a number of legal scholars who are intimately familiar with all nations' laws. Even more interestingly, they appear to agree that Federation law is the default for the cluster and applies to the State in both employment law and acts of political violence.

I'm not so sure that this is the case. I am somewhat confident that State law - and perhaps more usefully, individual corporate law - is not quite so clear cut in the matter. It seems clear that the Dragonaurs are a proscribed organisation. However, does the State practice collective responsibility in law? Do members of an organisation bear guilt by mere belonging or political affiliation, or do individuals have to be accused - or convicted - of a crime before being labelled a 'terrorist'? I am not so intimately familiar with State law as to be able to make such a judgement. Perhaps m'learned friends will fare better from their encyclopaedic knowledge?

In many tribal jurisdictions within the Republic, it is not only legal to commit acts that the fine people of this channel have labelled 'terrorist', these acts are viewed with some sense of approbation. This is justified under the agreed principle of Historic Self-Defence. In other words, all acts - including against civilians - are legal when the freedom of a slave or slaves is at stake. Holders and their families, overseers, and associated civiil servants, hauliers and facilitators have all been executed in the course of freeing Minmatar. (I should note that many tribal jurisdictions do consider these murderous acts nowadays - and judgements can be inconsistent in the matter now that clan tribunals apply the law).

In the Republic, these acts are seen as just and good. In the Empire, they are seen as terrorism. Indeed, the Empire is fond of labelling the entire Republic as a terrorist state. Thus, I submit, the definition of 'terrorism' is somewhat of a moveable feast depending on one's point of view. Some jurisdictions codify it and describe it in law, others define it under existing laws on murder. Being essentially a political act, it depends on the politics of the moment. The FIO and the Federation Senate particularly are fond of designating opposition as terrorists or terrorist sympathisers to froth up the yellow press and the impressionable voter. That is not law, that is politics.

To be clear, I am not supporting Commander Kim's actions nor condemning them. I just note that this is perhaps a matter for State law and her employing mega corporation, and that many of the pronouncements here make the assumption she is wrong prima facie.

Whereas if we were truly embracing Federation law as being the default, surely the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" would apply to judgments of her crew, at the very least.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#120 - 2017-05-08 12:30:34 UTC
Haru'kai Vidaraltyr wrote:

Whereas if we were truly embracing Federation law as being the default, surely the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" would apply to judgments of her crew, at the very least.

This doesn't relate to Federal law. It is a basic principle of fair justice.
For any processes that I have executed over captured crewmembers of destroyed vessel, their innocence was assumed from the the start and their guilt had to be proven for the jury based on collected evidences before deciding on a sentence.

Haru'kai Vidaraltyr wrote:

I'm not so sure that this is the case. I am somewhat confident that State law - and perhaps more usefully, individual corporate law - is not quite so clear cut in the matter. It seems clear that the Dragonaurs are a proscribed organisation. However, does the State practice collective responsibility in law? Do members of an organisation bear guilt by mere belonging or political affiliation, or do individuals have to be accused - or convicted - of a crime before being labelled a 'terrorist'? I am not so intimately familiar with State law as to be able to make such a judgement. Perhaps m'learned friends will fare better from their encyclopaedic knowledge?

There is no collective responsibility in the State.
For example, you aren't allowed to execute a gurista crewmember if you catch them alive or if they surrender. Their guilt must be proven first.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.