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ORE Versions of DST and BR

Author
Aeron Wareson
Incorruptibles
#1 - 2017-05-06 17:04:29 UTC
Having long recognized the need for ships capable of hauling specialized commodities securely along the often hostile trade routes of low and null security space and seeking to continue the expansion of their capsuleer ready line of ships, the engineers at Outer Rings Excavations' turned their attention to creating an advanced line of specialized commodity haulers.

Proposal:

ORE versions of the Deep Space Transport and Blockade Runner

Humpback - Deep Space Transport - Designed to securely haul large amounts of specialized commodities through dangerous space.

Otter - Blockade Runner - Designed to covertly move smaller amounts of valuable specialized commodities through known blockades and gate camps and deliver them to operations behind enemy lines.

- Shield tanked with bonuses and attributes similar to existing DST's and BR's

- New ships would differ from existing ships in the same class by having a minimal standard cargo hold.

- Both the BR and DST version would be able to fit interchangeable specialized commodity holds similar to those found on the Hoarder and Gallente line of specialized T1 haulers. DST versions of the holds would be similar in base capacity to those found on the T1 haulers in existence while the holds for the BR would be only half that size at most. Visual inspection would allow a trained eye to distinguish which type of cargo bay was fitted due to visual differences.

- In place of a fleet hangar the DST version would be able to fit a second specialized cargo hold (either the same as or different than the other hold selected).

- Bonuses to cargo hold and fleet hangar would instead apply to specialized commodity capacity.
Vokan Narkar
New Eden Traders Aliance
#2 - 2017-05-06 17:07:50 UTC
You can transport sh*tload of ore in compressed form in DST or BR so I see no reason for this.
Aeron Wareson
Incorruptibles
#3 - 2017-05-06 17:10:27 UTC
Not just ore. These ships would be able to haul ammo, planetary goods and minerals as well depending on configuration.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2017-05-06 17:36:36 UTC
Let's assume you're hauling planetary goods on a character with Gallente industrial V, and acess to gallente transport ships.

An epithal carries 67.5k in it's hold, so 68k total

How much can one of your DSTs carry, given that an existing DST hauls 63.9km with no cargo expanders fit?

And one of your BRs, given the standard ones haul 4.5k?

How is having a small cargohold going to differentiate an ORE DST from a standard DST given that of that 63.9k, only the 3.9k is the standard hold? (I can't speak for all DST Pilots, but I never even use my regular hold)
Anthar Thebess
#5 - 2017-05-06 17:37:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Current DST allow you to get up to 1 million EHP - while still having cloak and MJD.

1.000.000 EHP on an medium sized industrial ship

What more do you need?
Yodik
Dwarfed ORE
#6 - 2017-05-06 17:40:45 UTC
just give mjd to porpoise. end of story.

В любой непонятной ситуации - качай Prospect.

Aeron Wareson
Incorruptibles
#7 - 2017-05-06 17:55:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeron Wareson
Danika Princip wrote:
Let's assume you're hauling planetary goods on a character with Gallente industrial V, and acess to gallente transport ships.

An epithal carries 67.5k in it's hold, so 68k total

How much can one of your DSTs carry, given that an existing DST hauls 63.9km with no cargo expanders fit?

And one of your BRs, given the standard ones haul 4.5k?

How is having a small cargohold going to differentiate an ORE DST from a standard DST given that of that 63.9k, only the 3.9k is the standard hold? (I can't speak for all DST Pilots, but I never even use my regular hold)


The DST version would allow you to carry at least twice the amount carried by the epithal by fitting two of the specialized PI holds. Similarly you would be able to carry at least twice the ammo compared to the hoarder, ore compared to the miasmos and minerals compared to the kyros. The trade off being you cannot carry a large amount of items not of that type.

The numbers for the BR would need to be worked to allow for the ORE to carry approximately twice the specialized commodity as an existing BR can carry to make the trade off of not being able to haul other items worth it.
Aeron Wareson
Incorruptibles
#8 - 2017-05-06 17:56:58 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Current DST allow you to get up to 1 million EHP - while still having cloak and MJD.

1.000.000 EHP on an medium sized industrial ship

What more do you need?


This DST would be similarly tankable but be able to carry more of the specialized commodity you choose compared to any other DST currently existing.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#9 - 2017-05-06 18:05:12 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Current DST allow you to get up to 1 million EHP - while still having cloak and MJD.

1.000.000 EHP on an medium sized industrial ship

What more do you need?

Can you link me that 1mil ehp fit?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2017-05-06 18:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Alderson Point
Aeron Wareson wrote:
Having long recognized the need for ships capable of hauling specialized commodities securely along the often hostile trade routes of low and null security space and seeking to continue the expansion of their capsuleer ready line of ships, the engineers at Outer Rings Excavations' turned their attention to creating an advanced line of specialized commodity haulers.

Proposal:

ORE versions of the Deep Space Transport and Blockade Runner

Humpback - Deep Space Transport - Designed to securely haul large amounts of specialized commodities through dangerous space.

Otter - Blockade Runner - Designed to covertly move smaller amounts of valuable specialized commodities through known blockades and gate camps and deliver them to operations behind enemy lines.

- Shield tanked with bonuses and attributes similar to existing DST's and BR's

- New ships would differ from existing ships in the same class by having a minimal standard cargo hold.

- Both the BR and DST version would be able to fit interchangeable specialized commodity holds similar to those found on the Hoarder and Gallente line of specialized T1 haulers. DST versions of the holds would be similar in base capacity to those found on the T1 haulers in existence while the holds for the BR would be only half that size at most. Visual inspection would allow a trained eye to distinguish which type of cargo bay was fitted due to visual differences.

- In place of a fleet hangar the DST version would be able to fit a second specialized cargo hold (either the same as or different than the other hold selected).

- Bonuses to cargo hold and fleet hangar would instead apply to specialized commodity capacity.


Not overall a bad idea, interesting thoughts. I wonder how much use they would get, But I cannot see anything gamebreaking here.

Gankers in HS would whine about the lack of easily popped industrials, and it is the slippery slope da-de-da-de-da...... but I don't think they have a divine right to that.
Aeron Wareson
Incorruptibles
#11 - 2017-05-06 18:34:34 UTC
Alderson Point wrote:

Not overall a bad idea, interesting thoughts. I wonder how much use they would get, But I cannot see anything gamebreaking here.

Gankers in HS would whine about the lack of easily popped industrials, and it is the slippery slope da-de-da-de-da...... but I don't think they have a divine right to that.


Not a gamebreaker like you say. At the core it's introducing T2 specialized haulers whereas we only have T1 at the moment. Gankers can rest easy because pilots would need the skills to use other T2 transports in order to use these so there won't be a sudden shortage of T1 haulers moving along the trade routes to pop.

I imagine they would be niche ships just like the T1 versions but would see use. Two ideas that come to mind immediately are incursion runners hauling ammo and players doing PI in lowsec and wormholes moving those materials around.
Jason Kusion
KUSION SPECIAL TEAM
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2017-05-06 20:00:35 UTC
Overall, not too bad. +1 from me.

On Cargoholds:
I feel like you are missing details on exactly how these new ships would achieve more cargo capacity in the OP, but by the sounds of it you are talking about some kind of subsystem these new ships would be able to fit to add a specialized cargohold. Make these cargohold fittings lowslots which add 30,000 m3 of their specified cargohold and limit the BR variant to a maximum of 1, DST variant to a maximum of 4. That would place the max size of the specialized cargoholds at approximately double the standard cargohold size for each ship type. This also allows for the new ships to change the specialized cargohold as needed, or for the DST to have up to 4 different specialized holds of 30,000 m3 each. Regular cargoholds would need to be adjusted so they aren't large enough to add a meaningful amount of cargospace for non-specialized cargo, but leave enough room for refits and deployables. DST would lose the fleet hangar entirely.

Balancing EHP:
By using a lowslot to provide the specialized cargohold, it's easy to balance out the max possible EHP. Want to fit 4 cargohold fittings on the DST? Ok, but they use a lot of powergrid and you won't have much left for any shield extenders. Only need two cargohold fittings? Sweet, you have room to trow on 2 reactors in the lows so you can fit a mean shield buffer. Let the pilot decide how much cargohold they need and how much tank they need.

On Ganking:
The DST is currently the toughest target to gank in highsec if the pilot knows how to fit and use the ship and the BR is impossible to catch without getting lucky and having them decloak near a wreck or other object that prevents them from using the cov ops cloak.. In their current state, the only reason either of these ship types die is pilot error/incompetence. These new ORE ships would follow in the same vein as their T2 variants: virtually unkillable when piloted correctly. There will still be that guy who maximizes his cargohold with no tank and gets popped with 10bil, but it was his risk to take and no fault of the ship design.

On T1 Indys:
There is a very good reason why we do not see frequent use of the specialized T1 indys: They offer no benefit over DSTs. There only 4 types of people using specialized T1 indys right now:
(1) People unaware of how much the DST can carry and how tanky it is
(2) People who are too lazy/poor to skill into DSTs
(3) People who don't need the extra cargospace with enough frequency to justify training DSTs
(4) People who are still training for DSTs
These proposed new ships are certainly cool and would offer some benefit over standard DSTs, but I don't think they would appeal to the people currently using specialized T1s. To refer to the previously mentioned groups:
(1) They are still stuck in ignorance
(2) They can't afford the pricetag of a pirate ship or can't afford the increased training requirements of a pirate ship
(3) They still don't need the extra stats, certainly can't justify the even longer training requirement
(4) They are still training, but now have more that they need to train
I'm not saying these ships would see little use, but they are not going to appeal to the t1 indy crowd unless the barrier to entry is set far lower than DSTs.
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2017-05-06 21:00:27 UTC
Jason Kusion wrote:
Overall, not too bad. +1 from me.

On Cargoholds:
I feel like you are missing details on exactly how these new ships would achieve more cargo capacity in the OP, but by the sounds of it you are talking about some kind of subsystem these new ships would be able to fit to add a specialized cargohold. Make these cargohold fittings lowslots which add 30,000 m3 of their specified cargohold and limit the BR variant to a maximum of 1, DST variant to a maximum of 4. That would place the max size of the specialized cargoholds at approximately double the standard cargohold size for each ship type. This also allows for the new ships to change the specialized cargohold as needed, or for the DST to have up to 4 different specialized holds of 30,000 m3 each. Regular cargoholds would need to be adjusted so they aren't large enough to add a meaningful amount of cargospace for non-specialized cargo, but leave enough room for refits and deployables. DST would lose the fleet hangar entirely.

Balancing EHP:
By using a lowslot to provide the specialized cargohold, it's easy to balance out the max possible EHP. Want to fit 4 cargohold fittings on the DST? Ok, but they use a lot of powergrid and you won't have much left for any shield extenders. Only need two cargohold fittings? Sweet, you have room to trow on 2 reactors in the lows so you can fit a mean shield buffer. Let the pilot decide how much cargohold they need and how much tank they need.

On Ganking:
The DST is currently the toughest target to gank in highsec if the pilot knows how to fit and use the ship and the BR is impossible to catch without getting lucky and having them decloak near a wreck or other object that prevents them from using the cov ops cloak.. In their current state, the only reason either of these ship types die is pilot error/incompetence. These new ORE ships would follow in the same vein as their T2 variants: virtually unkillable when piloted correctly. There will still be that guy who maximizes his cargohold with no tank and gets popped with 10bil, but it was his risk to take and no fault of the ship design.

On T1 Indys:
There is a very good reason why we do not see frequent use of the specialized T1 indys: They offer no benefit over DSTs. There only 4 types of people using specialized T1 indys right now:
(1) People unaware of how much the DST can carry and how tanky it is
(2) People who are too lazy/poor to skill into DSTs
(3) People who don't need the extra cargospace with enough frequency to justify training DSTs
(4) People who are still training for DSTs
These proposed new ships are certainly cool and would offer some benefit over standard DSTs, but I don't think they would appeal to the people currently using specialized T1s. To refer to the previously mentioned groups:
(1) They are still stuck in ignorance
(2) They can't afford the pricetag of a pirate ship or can't afford the increased training requirements of a pirate ship
(3) They still don't need the extra stats, certainly can't justify the even longer training requirement
(4) They are still training, but now have more that they need to train
I'm not saying these ships would see little use, but they are not going to appeal to the t1 indy crowd unless the barrier to entry is set far lower than DSTs.


A smart reasonable and rational reply, nicely put.
Aeron Wareson
Incorruptibles
#14 - 2017-05-06 21:23:22 UTC
Thanks for the feedback Jason.

The original idea is indeed to use a type of subsystem. Think of each subsystem like the specialized hold on an indy such as the PI hold on an epithal. The ORE DST would be limited to two while the BR would be limited to a fraction of a whole of that bay. Obviously there would be similar limits for bays carrying other commodity types.

That said, using modules is an interesting proposition. It would make for a truly customizable transport ship with the trade off between tank, capacity and speed. This brings up a potential problem however. Part of the trade off for the increased capacity is decreased flexibility. If the modules are small enough to carry spare sets in the minimal standard cargo hold the ships possess this disadvantage is neutralized.

For the record I currently find myself in the still training to fly a DST category. Other things were so much flashier...
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2017-05-06 21:57:41 UTC
So a t3 industrial? No ty.

We need to delete the disastrous t3s we already have not add more.
Although personally I like the idea of a configurable hold it should be for all ships not just one.
Cargo space needs a huge revamp. The harbinger has less Cargo room than frigates. That's completely absurd
grgjegb gergerg
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2017-05-07 03:33:03 UTC
If you think about it, the Miasmos should always have been an ORE industrial instead of Gallente. Lump it in with the Venture somehow, some people get happy. (Others get mad, but that only happens on days that end in "y".)

Too late now, though?
Luc Chastot
#17 - 2017-05-07 05:32:39 UTC
What I would like to see, just to make sub-capital haulers less messy, is for CCP to leave just two hulls for each faction (agile and heavy) and add two ORE sub-capital haulers (ore/minerals and PI). As a bonus, redesign all the fugly racial industrials.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Anthar Thebess
#18 - 2017-05-07 10:52:01 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Current DST allow you to get up to 1 million EHP - while still having cloak and MJD.

1.000.000 EHP on an medium sized industrial ship

What more do you need?

Can you link me that 1mil ehp fit?


Impel X-Types , A-Types, faction plates and slaves.
Dior Ambraelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2017-05-07 12:40:29 UTC
grgjegb gergerg wrote:
If you think about it, the Miasmos should always have been an ORE industrial instead of Gallente. Lump it in with the Venture somehow, some people get happy. (Others get mad, but that only happens on days that end in "y".)

Too late now, though?

Venture is a frigate, it would be odd to see it there, I wouldn't mind it among the ORE industrials group though.
Luc Chastot wrote:
What I would like to see, just to make sub-capital haulers less messy, is for CCP to leave just two hulls for each faction (agile and heavy) and add two ORE sub-capital haulers (ore/minerals and PI). As a bonus, redesign all the fugly racial industrials.

My thoughts exactly!
Also, why is the Gallente DST based on the Epithal instead of the Itreon V again? I know this question is kind of a dead horse from my point of view, but I won't leave it alone until I get a logical explanation for this!

If you want an intelligent argument, please do, I'm up for it!

But if you want a trolling contest, I will win it by simply not participating.