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About those, who call the real war "Pendulum"

Author
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#61 - 2017-05-01 06:10:46 UTC
Foiritan would have stooped so low, I'm afraid. He was the one who started the whole Black Eagles division inside the FIO and appointed Blaque at its head. He was the one who started the whole 'we must purge the traitors' thought that drove the Federation during the early stages of the Empyrean War.

If anything, it seemed that Jacus Roden stepped on the brakes before things got any worse. Granted, he didn't improve matters either. Though credit, where credit's due, sorting out the mess was going to be very difficult and he managed to do that at least.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

James Syagrius
Reclamation
#62 - 2017-05-02 00:21:49 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I believe that Foiritan would never have stooped so low. I believe few of the people I view as Gallente patriots are comfortable with this situation.
Former President Foiritan is an honorable man faced with an invasion and the political realities that such require.

You would be surprised what you can become comfortable with when you’re trying to survive. But granted, perhaps I am something other than a ‘patriot’.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
…I will be closing down the Arcology project in favour of a similar one in State space.
As I stated in the thread devoted to the topic mentioned above, I am disappointed. I enjoyed our… discussions related to development on Caldari Prime. But of course, wish you well in your new endeavors.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I am done with Caldari Prime. I now believe that Home is nothing more than an endless well of pain and loss that exists to tempt The State to do things which put all our people at risk. Without it, we will endure. With it we will be complete. I'm now prepared to entertain a much longer time line on that acquisition - which is good, because I think the Senate will yank that rug out from under Ishukones feet at some time in the near to mid future.
Well, I understand your mistrust of the Senate. Goodness knows I distrust Ishukones, but I think perhaps we both should give the other to more credit.

But as you say, perhaps now is not the time.

But, despite it all… Good luck Pieter.
James Syagrius
Reclamation
#63 - 2017-05-02 00:28:59 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Foiritan would have stooped so low, I'm afraid. He was the one who started the whole Black Eagles division inside the FIO and appointed Blaque at its head. He was the one who started the whole 'we must purge the traitors' thought that drove the Federation during the early stages of the Empyrean War.
Now that was an astute observation. He did indeed, though he didn't have much of a choice considering the post-invasion political realities.

Elmund Egivand wrote:
If anything, it seemed that Jacus Roden stepped on the brakes before things got any worse. Granted, he didn't improve matters either. Though credit, where credit's due, sorting out the mess was going to be very difficult and he managed to do that at least.
Again, a very astute observation. Indeed he did. President Roden has been surprisingly moderate in his policies, all things considered.

I listen to those who clamor about 'war crimes' committed by our President and often wish they would enumerate them, if for nothing but my own edification.

I think he is the right man at the right time. Will times change, certainly, when they do the politics of it will shift.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
Jayai Syndicate
#64 - 2017-05-02 13:10:47 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:

If it comes down to open war, and my choices are death or enslavement, yes. I would be willing to make that bet. I would rather die as a free Minmatar then as an Amarrian pet. I would personally burn my on world's simply to prevent Amarrian occupation. I've seen first hand what Vitoc does to a person, I've seen how slaves are treated when people thing nobody's looking, and I can only imagine the psychological trauma that is inflicted after years of being stripped of one's free will. As for the opinion of the other nations, if they couldn't help us push back the Amarr, If they asked us to sacrifice our people for peace, then I couldn't care less. If my people are going to be enslaved, I'd rather my nation die being the villains that removed the cancer in our cluster then for it to simply die quietly under the lash of barbaric religious beliefs.

Your nation already jumped on board with what you call cancer by their involvement with cartel. Starting from contracting their assets that are later used for slave trade to protecting outposts with their identification markings.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#65 - 2017-05-02 15:36:27 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I believe that Foiritan would never have stooped so low. I believe few of the people I view as Gallente patriots are comfortable with this situation.
Former President Foiritan is an honorable man faced with an invasion and the political realities that such require.

Foiritan was anything but honorable. It is under that man the Federation sent Noir's Nyx to ram Malkalen station. It is under Foiritan gallente racists started attacking ethnic Caldari on Caldari Prime, put slogans to "Exterminate all Caldari", burned Caldari archeological digs and defaced monuments. And it was Foiritan who started this war with us, that lasts already for eight years.

And it also was Foiritan that ran away from his position like coward rat, not a honorable man, when we have defeated him in the war he has started.

I hope he will rot for what he did to Caldari State. But we will endure, we will carry on through anything gallente oppressors will throw at us. And we will win.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Teinyhr
Ourumur
#66 - 2017-05-02 16:08:57 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

Your nation already jumped on board with what you call cancer by their involvement with cartel. Starting from contracting their assets that are later used for slave trade to protecting outposts with their identification markings.


Wow and here I thought judging by the contracts I get from Republic affiliated corporations to eradicate Angel Cartel presence(I assume this was what you were referring to), that the Republic doesn't like the Cartel very much.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
Jayai Syndicate
#67 - 2017-05-02 20:11:30 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

Your nation already jumped on board with what you call cancer by their involvement with cartel. Starting from contracting their assets that are later used for slave trade to protecting outposts with their identification markings.


Wow and here I thought judging by the contracts I get from Republic affiliated corporations to eradicate Angel Cartel presence(I assume this was what you were referring to), that the Republic doesn't like the Cartel very much.

Assume whatever you wish. It won't change a thing about contracting biodomes to cartel that are later used as slave trade centers or using cartel identification markings on outposts that are protected by Republic combat vessels. Theatrics that you mentioned are there for a reason, in short it would be to costly for the Republic to publicly admit it.
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
#68 - 2017-05-02 20:43:22 UTC
No point playing into the propaganda, Teinyhr. On that point, the man is right. The Republic has hardly managed to rise above the other nations in that regard. No matter the nation, when there's a need dire enough or official corrupt enough, there's dealing with the scum of New Eden. In the Republic's case, more than one shady deal with the Angels.

Just pretending it doesn't happen won't make that problem go away. Get the crimes and failures into the light, so all can see. Then they can be dealt with instead of just going on endlessly. More importantly, accept that it's done by people who should be above such things, so they can be dragged down where they belong.

Being disingenuous about it would leave us on the level of the Imperials, downplaying the slaver raids and breeding facilities.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#69 - 2017-05-02 21:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
Right, and I'm just to take your word for this, or is there actual proof you can convince me with? I know some people certainly deal with the Cartel, that is a no-brainer, but is there, you know, any indication that the Republic as a general whole is condoning it like the Empire is, or is it just deals made by some rotten locals?
Look, I'm open to believe you, if you have any evidence of widespread corruption, heck I'll be the first one to tear those bastards down with you.

Also I'm not sucking on my home empires teat anymore, this is not about me having some undying loyalty to the Republic, it is because this is the first I've managed to hear of this. So maybe tone down your preaching a little bit.
Tristan Valentina
Moira.
Villore Accords
#70 - 2017-05-02 22:32:00 UTC
WAIT!! Capsuleers are dark and scary people? Commander i believe you have found something fresh and new when it comes to the Capsuleer experience. The amazing ability for Capsuleers to seperate themselves and compartmentalise the slaughter that they, and their warfare can enact on the masses.

Are the really terrifying Capsuleers the ones that trivialise the war zone? Or is it us Capsuleers that keep fighting here even when we know that for years nothing has changed and it seems unlikely that anything will?

Just my thoughts on the Commander's page of text. I have probably missed the point. I am going to go back to trying to be dark and scary.
Mizhara Del'thul
Coreli Corporation
Mercenary Coalition
#71 - 2017-05-02 23:31:14 UTC
Of course the 'Republic as a whole' does not condone it, any more than the State as a whole condone business with the Gurista or the Federation with the Serpentis and so on and so forth. The Empire 'as a whole' does not condone the slave raids or breeding facilities either. There's both the genuine efforts taken against them as well as the dishonest bleating of 'oh it's illegal, so it's not really the Empire's fault'.

My word should of course never be enough in such a case, nor any sources I would point at given my choices and actions during my capsuleer career. If you seek evidence of these backroom deals and acts of corruption, I would recommend you contact veterans of Electus Matari or other less... disreputable sources. Most of them will grudgingly point you in the right direction, I suspect.

It'll be a bit more persuasive than my word, no?

It doesn't have to be the 'Republic as a whole' for it to be a stain on the Tribes. If we're to condemn the Empire's actions within our borders, we have to admit to the crimes of our own making or it'd be hypocrisy at best. I am not 'preaching' at you or anyone else here. Merely providing the reminder that a critical eye needs to fall upon ourselves as much as our enemies.

Saying it's just some rotten locals - which still fall under the responsibility of the Tribes and Republic, no matter how we swing it - is not much different from the Empire claiming the slave raids and breeding facilities are just rogue admirals or criminals.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#72 - 2017-05-03 02:16:53 UTC
Tristan Valentina wrote:
WAIT!! Capsuleers are dark and scary people? Commander i believe you have found something fresh and new when it comes to the Capsuleer experience. The amazing ability for Capsuleers to seperate themselves and compartmentalise the slaughter that they, and their warfare can enact on the masses.

Are the really terrifying Capsuleers the ones that trivialise the war zone? Or is it us Capsuleers that keep fighting here even when we know that for years nothing has changed and it seems unlikely that anything will?

Just my thoughts on the Commander's page of text. I have probably missed the point. I am going to go back to trying to be dark and scary.

A lot of wars in history were taking ages to resolve. Some were fast like lighning, for example, liberation of Caldari Prime by Tibus Heth in YC110. Something will change, just you wait. Another one brave Caldari will lift Tibus Heth flag, and this time we won't stop after we liberate our homeworld back.

As for Capsuleer and our part in this war, I think it is already pretty obvious that amount of human lives lost per ISK of destroyed equipment is times lower for capsuleer vessels, which are way more expensive, way more efficient and have way less crew.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
#73 - 2017-05-03 02:36:07 UTC
And yet there is still no war. Merely an area of space for capsuleers to shoot each other and play tug-of-war with a handful of systems that ultimately mean nothing. The capture of which results in nothing, and the empires can't be bothered enough to think anything in these systems is worth sending a fleet in to protect it.


The war is fake. At best it's a place to hone ones combat skills in preparation for a real conflict.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#74 - 2017-05-03 05:24:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Claudia Osyn wrote:
And yet there is still no war. Merely an area of space for capsuleers to shoot each other and play tug-of-war with a handful of systems that ultimately mean nothing. The capture of which results in nothing, and the empires can't be bothered enough to think anything in these systems is worth sending a fleet in to protect it.


The war is fake. At best it's a place to hone ones combat skills in preparation for a real conflict.


If the sovereign nations actually give a damn about those systems they would have dropped entire armadas or put up defensive emplacements to secure them upon capture, moving the lines forward as more systems are taken.

Did that happen? Nope! Other than the token suicide resistances and the occasional patrols, we see no such thing. They didn't even erect anything with plans for long-term settlement and resource exploitation. These systems had long been signed off as sandboxes for bloodthirsty nationalists and opportunists to go have their fun and profit under the Emergency Militia Act, and has no bearing on the national politics of the day.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Teinyhr
Ourumur
#75 - 2017-05-03 10:25:23 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Of course the 'Republic as a whole' does not condone it, any more than the State as a whole condone business with the Gurista or the Federation with the Serpentis and so on and so forth. The Empire 'as a whole' does not condone the slave raids or breeding facilities either. There's both the genuine efforts taken against them as well as the dishonest bleating of 'oh it's illegal, so it's not really the Empire's fault'.

My word should of course never be enough in such a case, nor any sources I would point at given my choices and actions during my capsuleer career. If you seek evidence of these backroom deals and acts of corruption, I would recommend you contact veterans of Electus Matari or other less... disreputable sources. Most of them will grudgingly point you in the right direction, I suspect.

It'll be a bit more persuasive than my word, no?

It doesn't have to be the 'Republic as a whole' for it to be a stain on the Tribes. If we're to condemn the Empire's actions within our borders, we have to admit to the crimes of our own making or it'd be hypocrisy at best. I am not 'preaching' at you or anyone else here. Merely providing the reminder that a critical eye needs to fall upon ourselves as much as our enemies.

Saying it's just some rotten locals - which still fall under the responsibility of the Tribes and Republic, no matter how we swing it - is not much different from the Empire claiming the slave raids and breeding facilities are just rogue admirals or criminals.



So all you can give me is pointing me towards even more capsuleers, and even that in the vaguest way possible? You'll forgive me if I'm not 100% sold. Mail me a lead if you for some reason can't say anything publicly.
Question is, then, if you know about this, why have you, or anyone else in the know, not informed the authorities? Like you said, it is a stain on the Tribes, one I'm sure they would gladly wash away if they were aware, especially when it comes to slavery being practiced within our own borders. Or are you then implying that the Republic is rotten to the very core, that no one in power is willing to act?

And yes, you were preaching or at the very least being very condesdending.
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#76 - 2017-05-03 11:02:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Teinyhr wrote:
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Of course the 'Republic as a whole' does not condone it, any more than the State as a whole condone business with the Gurista or the Federation with the Serpentis and so on and so forth. The Empire 'as a whole' does not condone the slave raids or breeding facilities either. There's both the genuine efforts taken against them as well as the dishonest bleating of 'oh it's illegal, so it's not really the Empire's fault'.

My word should of course never be enough in such a case, nor any sources I would point at given my choices and actions during my capsuleer career. If you seek evidence of these backroom deals and acts of corruption, I would recommend you contact veterans of Electus Matari or other less... disreputable sources. Most of them will grudgingly point you in the right direction, I suspect.

It'll be a bit more persuasive than my word, no?

It doesn't have to be the 'Republic as a whole' for it to be a stain on the Tribes. If we're to condemn the Empire's actions within our borders, we have to admit to the crimes of our own making or it'd be hypocrisy at best. I am not 'preaching' at you or anyone else here. Merely providing the reminder that a critical eye needs to fall upon ourselves as much as our enemies.

Saying it's just some rotten locals - which still fall under the responsibility of the Tribes and Republic, no matter how we swing it - is not much different from the Empire claiming the slave raids and breeding facilities are just rogue admirals or criminals.



So all you can give me is pointing me towards even more capsuleers, and even that in the vaguest way possible? You'll forgive me if I'm not 100% sold. Mail me a lead if you for some reason can't say anything publicly.
Question is, then, if you know about this, why have you, or anyone else in the know, not informed the authorities? Like you said, it is a stain on the Tribes, one I'm sure they would gladly wash away if they were aware, especially when it comes to slavery being practiced within our own borders. Or are you then implying that the Republic is rotten to the very core, that no one in power is willing to act?

And yes, you were preaching or at the very least being very condesdending.


It is actually kind of an open secret that the Republic Security Service engages with criminal elements, Cartel especially, during the course of securing the interest of the Republic. Don't even bother raising a fuzz about it, all these activities are deniable operations.

Also, check out the Valklears and dig through their personnel records. You will find just about everyone, even their generals, have extremely shady background records; most of them read like something straight out of a bad holodrama. Reeks of fabrication in every paragraph. Then you try pulling the threads and see where they go.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#77 - 2017-05-04 22:57:40 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
And yet there is still no war.

I am not going to prove to a blind woman that red apple is red.
You know nothing, Claudia Osyn.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2017-05-05 10:54:47 UTC
Argument about how you call the war is one thing, but denying something that happens is a bit too much.

In the question about how to call this war, I will give my preference to point of views of those who fight it, and not to those, who only speak about it. The former have more right to call their activity rather than those, who don't do it. God sees, I have traveled a lot. I have been in both our and Caldari-Gallente warzone, and I never seen any TLF, 24th Crusade, State Protectorate or FDU members calling this war "Pendulum". I've never seen even pirates, who were catching and killing faction pilots, who would call the war "Pendulum".

I have heard this word "Pendulum" only from mouths of those, who don't do anything, and only speak. You can feel that there is a strong negligence in this word. The people who participate in this war, they undock, they fight, they defend or capture their military beacons, they do missions, in other words, they are just doing something and bringing or trying to bring the change. This word "Pendulum" is just a mocking, implying that people work in vain. It is an insult issued by people who don't do anything except speaking to annoy those people, who do act and do something and try to change something.

I would say, that insisting to call this war "Pendulum" is just immature.

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Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#79 - 2017-05-05 11:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
However, 'Pendulum' is a very apt description of the conflict in the systems put aside for the sake of said conflict by the Emergency Militia Act. Dominance swings back and forth, over and over, and over, throughout the years of its existence. Exactly like a swinging pendulum. Hence the coining of the term.

It is not about maturity, it is about the observable effects and consequences and the absence of anything resembling permanence and the complete lack of an attempt by the sovereign nations, the supposed biggest stakeholders of this conflict, to ensure permanency in this conflict. Unless you have a better name for a conflict whose most defining feature is how dominance swings back and forth over and over again, we are going to keep calling it 'The Pendulum War'.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2017-05-05 13:06:23 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Argument about how you call the war is one thing, but denying something that happens is a bit too much.

In the question about how to call this war, I will give my preference to point of views of those who fight it, and not to those, who only speak about it. The former have more right to call their activity rather than those, who don't do it. God sees, I have traveled a lot. I have been in both our and Caldari-Gallente warzone, and I never seen any TLF, 24th Crusade, State Protectorate or FDU members calling this war "Pendulum". I've never seen even pirates, who were catching and killing faction pilots, who would call the war "Pendulum".


And the rat cannot see the whole of the maze from within, either. Your 'warzone' is exactly that: a maze designed by the empires to be unwinnable, to keep you running in circles.

Quote:

I have heard this word "Pendulum" only from mouths of those, who don't do anything, and only speak. You can feel that there is a strong negligence in this word. The people who participate in this war, they undock, they fight, they defend or capture their military beacons, they do missions, in other words, they are just doing something and bringing or trying to bring the change. This word "Pendulum" is just a mocking, implying that people work in vain. It is an insult issued by people who don't do anything except speaking to annoy those people, who do act and do something and try to change something.


Perhaps you should step outside of the maze and see just how much there really is to do out here. You can undock and shoot one another all you like. That doesn't mean you aren't fighting in vain. You cannot win. Ever. Your own leaders will not let you. At most, they'll give you a meaningless medal, pat you on the head... and send you right back into the same conflict to fight over the same systems, all over again.

They don't want you to win. They want you to fight. For scraps. For affection. For nothing.


Elmund Egivand wrote:
Unless you have a better name for a conflict whose most defining feature is how dominance swings back and forth over and over again, we are going to keep calling it 'The Pendulum War'.


A conflict that was expressly designed by all four empires to have dominance swing back and forth, never-ending.