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Mach blitzing: Worth it taking two BS skills to V?
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The Larold
This is an anagram of itself.
#1 - 2017-05-01 16:38:02 UTC
I am preparing to run LVL4's according to Anize's blitzing guide. This involves using an AC-fit Mach as described in the guide.

Assuming all gunnery support skills are maxed, implants as per stated in that guide, and large AC spec. is at IV, I am wondering if the 2-month train to take Minimater and Gallente BS from IV -> V is worth it. (Mach bonuses: 5% extra damage, 10% falloff.)

Since this is BLITZING, I'm killing as few ships as possible. Am I going to notice enough of a difference that this training time is worth it? (Yep, I get that this also would open up blackops and marauders of those factions, plus give bonuses to many other BS as well. Just curious about value relative to the specitic activity of blitzing via Anize's guide.)
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#2 - 2017-05-01 17:35:56 UTC
Worth it? good question. More damage and range is always good, but bs5 is a pretty long train. I guess my question to you is what else could you train in those 2 months? In the long run I'd say do it, but I'd guess you have other stuff to train in the short run.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Tam Arai
Mi Pen Rai
#3 - 2017-05-01 17:54:39 UTC
isnt the whole point of blitzing being every little counts?

depends on how long you plan on doing this activity

maybe try it out for a bit before committing to the long train?

i have gal, cal, min bs at 5 with amarr being trained currently because what the hell, i love extra bonuses and as you say it benefits other ships (perfect vindi too) and opens up new ones too
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#4 - 2017-05-01 18:10:12 UTC
Also consider whether you would like to unlock the requirements for a particular marauder.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#5 - 2017-05-01 18:41:28 UTC
Tam Arai wrote:
isnt the whole point of blitzing being every little counts?

depends on how long you plan on doing this activity

maybe try it out for a bit before committing to the long train?

i have gal, cal, min bs at 5 with amarr being trained currently because what the hell, i love extra bonuses and as you say it benefits other ships (perfect vindi too) and opens up new ones too

if you want to set a speed run record or something sure you probably need that 5% damage and 10% falloff, but losing something like 20 seconds off of the average mach mission isn't a huge setback. This is where diminishing returns for sp kick in pretty hard. If you can spend the 2 months that it would take to train both bs to 5 and instead train every frig to 5 and get t2 small guns and start running burner missions that is going to be a much bigger income boost than the 5%/10% from 2x bs5.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#6 - 2017-05-01 19:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarek Kree
The time/benefit ratio is definitely a function of the opportunity costs and your goals. I've been blitzing L4s and burners for months now and haven't even contemplated taking my BS skills beyond 3 because there are so many other skills that offer me a greater return on the the training time invested.

If you're following Anize's guide, you'll very quickly reach a point in which you only blitz a small handful of missions with your Mach. I only do 6 of the most efficient L4 missions and only 4 of those use my Mach. Saving a few seconds on those 4 missions is of far less benefit than my burner skills or even social skills.

If your burner and social skills are mostly 5s, then pushing your BS skills up to 5 as well definitely makes sense, but it needs to be way down on the priority list if you're going for time/isk efficiency with L4s and burners.
The Larold
This is an anagram of itself.
#7 - 2017-05-01 19:56:45 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Also consider whether you would like to unlock the requirements for a particular marauder.



I've been a life-long Golem pilot, and I *have* been wanting to try a couple of others to compare / get a feel.
The Larold
This is an anagram of itself.
#8 - 2017-05-01 20:03:46 UTC
Zarek Kree wrote:
The time/benefit ratio is definitely a function of the opportunity costs and your goals. I've been blitzing L4s and burners for months now and haven't even contemplated taking my BS skills beyond 3 because there are so many other skills that offer me a greater return on the the training time invested.

If you're following Anize's guide, you'll very quickly reach a point in which you only blitz a small handful of missions with your Mach. I only do 6 of the most efficient L4 missions and only 4 of those use my Mach. Saving a few seconds on those 4 missions is of far less benefit than my burner skills or even social skills.

If your burner and social skills are mostly 5s, then pushing your BS skills up to 5 as well definitely makes sense, but it needs to be way down on the priority list if you're going for time/isk efficiency with L4s and burners.


Your last paragraph says it all. All social is at V, and all *perc / willpower* burner skills are at V, sans Assault Frigates and HACs. (9 ranks of training time to go from IV -> V.)

Where it gets a little interesting is that my Int / Mem burner skills are lacking a bit. Passive armor and shield tanking only at III. Propulstion jamming at IV. High Speed Maneuvering and Accel Control at IV.

There's not a lot of other Per / Wil stuff I need or want to train, so it's kind of like a crap-or-get-off-the-pot type scenario. I'm down at the bottom of my priority list, and I'm looking at Min BS, Gal BS, HACs, and Assault Frigates. (All of which come into play for the blitzing guide.) After I do some subset of those, I'll remap.

Thanks for the thoughts.
Amun Doshu
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#9 - 2017-05-01 22:44:54 UTC
The Larold wrote:
I am preparing to run LVL4's according to Anize's blitzing guide. This involves using an AC-fit Mach as described in the guide.

Assuming all gunnery support skills are maxed, implants as per stated in that guide, and large AC spec. is at IV, I am wondering if the 2-month train to take Minimater and Gallente BS from IV -> V is worth it. (Mach bonuses: 5% extra damage, 10% falloff.)

Since this is BLITZING, I'm killing as few ships as possible. Am I going to notice enough of a difference that this training time is worth it? (Yep, I get that this also would open up blackops and marauders of those factions, plus give bonuses to many other BS as well. Just curious about value relative to the specitic activity of blitzing via Anize's guide.)



I would say it is worth anyway. you will be surprised how that one last level can affect all you knew about battleships. dont even mention the advanced bs-es that come after that
Rising Rider
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2017-05-03 12:52:59 UTC
It is always a good thing to train skills at lvl 5 especially Battleships.
Elaborating a little bit on this i have to say that training them to lvl 5 will give you advantages in other areas as well for example if you try other forms of PVE like incursions, it will open the t2 Battleships i.e. Marauders which is another good class of ships for both PVE and PVP and even help you if you decide to go into PVP since lots of doctrines include Battleships nowadays and having good skills on them helps a lot.
All and all it is worth it, at least in my opinion.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#11 - 2017-05-03 13:37:08 UTC
The Mach is one of those ships that you can actually tell a difference in how things work at 5 rather than 4.
Burnz Andven
Lincoln industry Corporation
#12 - 2017-05-04 08:07:11 UTC
Like other posts i would train to lvl 5 if you plan flying anything else e.g marauder. I currently run lvl 4 missions with a mach but not for blitzing. You will be able to tell the difference in having lvl 5 skills with a mach.
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#13 - 2017-05-05 15:35:12 UTC
The Larold wrote:
Assuming all gunnery support skills are maxed, implants as per stated in that guide, and large AC spec. is at IV, I am wondering if the 2-month train to take Minimater and Gallente BS from IV -> V is worth it. (Mach bonuses: 5% extra damage, 10% falloff.)

Since this is BLITZING, I'm killing as few ships as possible. Am I going to notice enough of a difference that this training time is worth it? (Yep, I get that this also would open up blackops and marauders of those factions, plus give bonuses to many other BS as well. Just curious about value relative to the specitic activity of blitzing via Anize's guide.)


Yeah, like Shiloh said... would you like to ever try out the Kronos or Vargur? Then go for it. ;)

Also, black ops BSes... in your case, Sin (ooo) and Panther (so quick).

--dual Paladin/dual Kronos pilot, yet to try Golem or Vargur but looking forward to them once I get around to Cal/Min BS Vs.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#14 - 2017-05-11 09:43:18 UTC
Since you are looking at a lv V skills > Remap situation my priority list would probably look roughly like this:

Pirate Frigs you're using to V: bonus of unlocking interceptors and AFs you might not have yet for burners
HACs: Vagabond/Onyx unlock with bonus of improving Pirate cruisers like Vigilant or Gila you might be using
Gallente then Minmatar BB if using Mach: Machariel range (very nice) and damage and unlock Vargur/Kronos for Pirate Invasion
Caldari then Minmatar BB if using Barghest: Sizable damage boost because RHML mechanic and unlock of Vargur

It does heavily depend on how advanced your burner skills are. it could potentially be worth it to burn a remap and spend the +-4 months you would on the above rather on improving burner skills. A small improvement in burners can have a very large impact on clear times, larger than normal lv4s, especially missile range and turret/missile damage skills.

Priority should be to unlock the ability to do every viable burner asap before trying to squeeze 20sec out of a lv4 blitz mission.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
The Larold
This is an anagram of itself.
#15 - 2017-05-11 23:00:44 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Since you are looking at a lv V skills > Remap situation my priority list would probably look roughly like this:

Pirate Frigs you're using to V: bonus of unlocking interceptors and AFs you might not have yet for burners
HACs: Vagabond/Onyx unlock with bonus of improving Pirate cruisers like Vigilant or Gila you might be using
Gallente then Minmatar BB if using Mach: Machariel range (very nice) and damage and unlock Vargur/Kronos for Pirate Invasion
Caldari then Minmatar BB if using Barghest: Sizable damage boost because RHML mechanic and unlock of Vargur

It does heavily depend on how advanced your burner skills are. it could potentially be worth it to burn a remap and spend the +-4 months you would on the above rather on improving burner skills. A small improvement in burners can have a very large impact on clear times, larger than normal lv4s, especially missile range and turret/missile damage skills.

Priority should be to unlock the ability to do every viable burner asap before trying to squeeze 20sec out of a lv4 blitz mission.


Great to hear from you again! It turns out the skill plan I decided to adopt is almost exactly what you describe, albeit in reverse order. (I won't have a lot of time to play in the next 3 months anyways, so order won't matter a ton.)

By any chance would you bother training Rocket or Light missile spec to V? Doesn't seem like it would affect clear times that much. (Same question for small turrets - take any from IV to V?)
Nosum Hseebnrido
Interregnum.
#16 - 2017-05-11 23:05:05 UTC
The Larold wrote:
I am preparing to run LVL4's according to Anize's blitzing guide. This involves using an AC-fit Mach as described in the guide.

Assuming all gunnery support skills are maxed, implants as per stated in that guide, and large AC spec. is at IV, I am wondering if the 2-month train to take Minimater and Gallente BS from IV -> V is worth it. (Mach bonuses: 5% extra damage, 10% falloff.)

Since this is BLITZING, I'm killing as few ships as possible. Am I going to notice enough of a difference that this training time is worth it? (Yep, I get that this also would open up blackops and marauders of those factions, plus give bonuses to many other BS as well. Just curious about value relative to the specitic activity of blitzing via Anize's guide.)


In the end you will have them all on lvl5, just avoid high rank as long as you can.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Nosum_Hseebnrido
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#17 - 2017-05-12 07:58:05 UTC
The Larold wrote:
Great to hear from you again! It turns out the skill plan I decided to adopt is almost exactly what you describe, albeit in reverse order. (I won't have a lot of time to play in the next 3 months anyways, so order won't matter a ton.)

By any chance would you bother training Rocket or Light missile spec to V? Doesn't seem like it would affect clear times that much. (Same question for small turrets - take any from IV to V?)

Interestingly lv V weapon skills have a much larger impact in burners than they do in normal lv4s. The reason for that is because of how much active/remote tanking/repping the rat(s) do in burners and very little in lv4s. A 5% increase in dps in normal lv4s is basically just that, 5% increase in dps and so a 5% decrease (roughly) in clear time. But with burners, say a rat tanks at 100dps and you do 110dps. Effectively you are only doing 10dps. Now a 5% increase in dps means you do 115dps or 15dps effectively. This means you're effective dps increased by 50%. The numbers are just examples but that's basically what's happening in burners. It's particularly a big thing with missile ships because of the consistent dps. same thing with application of missile damage if that isn't 'maxed' out through modules and implants. As a bonus rockets, light missiles and small turrets train a lot faster than battleship weapons. In this case a little goes a long way.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
The Larold
This is an anagram of itself.
#18 - 2017-05-12 23:02:20 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
The Larold wrote:
Great to hear from you again! It turns out the skill plan I decided to adopt is almost exactly what you describe, albeit in reverse order. (I won't have a lot of time to play in the next 3 months anyways, so order won't matter a ton.)

By any chance would you bother training Rocket or Light missile spec to V? Doesn't seem like it would affect clear times that much. (Same question for small turrets - take any from IV to V?)

Interestingly lv V weapon skills have a much larger impact in burners than they do in normal lv4s. The reason for that is because of how much active/remote tanking/repping the rat(s) do in burners and very little in lv4s. A 5% increase in dps in normal lv4s is basically just that, 5% increase in dps and so a 5% decrease (roughly) in clear time. But with burners, say a rat tanks at 100dps and you do 110dps. Effectively you are only doing 10dps. Now a 5% increase in dps means you do 115dps or 15dps effectively. This means you're effective dps increased by 50%. The numbers are just examples but that's basically what's happening in burners. It's particularly a big thing with missile ships because of the consistent dps. same thing with application of missile damage if that isn't 'maxed' out through modules and implants. As a bonus rockets, light missiles and small turrets train a lot faster than battleship weapons. In this case a little goes a long way.


Great analysis - I like the way you think. I'll add the missile and possibly small turret spec skills to V. Thanks again.
Muffinmixer
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2017-05-15 17:27:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Muffinmixer
I would focus on Burners. With 5.0+ faction standings, Diplo V (so your base standings can dip all the way down to -5.0 to get more out of stnd gains and less out of stnd losses), and the ability to run 7+ different Burners, you can easily mass-decline all the regular L4s and just run Burners, and keep your corp/agent standings a good 1-2 points above -2.0 Effective. You might only end up running Scarlet, but you can do this in a much smaller and cheaper ship like a HAC.

Also, as Anize pointed out, min-maxing your Burner skills will give you pretty significant improvements in clear time and also safety while running them. Burner Teams in particular have amazing gains from every drop in DPS you can add to them, since every bit of DPS will bleed right through the Logi tank, and if you can get enough DPS you can actually skip one or both Logi in some of the Teams and go for the T2 AF rat kill that much faster.
Mark Remillard
Evian Industries
Reeloaded.
#20 - 2017-05-15 18:12:38 UTC
While it is a small factor, it does need to be considered.

Burner missions are more challenging than normal level 4's (even with near max skills). From my experience, you cannot afford to make any (if any) mistakes running them. Even having read the guides, I've still had a few ships blown up, which hurts the overall income rate. As a comparison, certain Marauder builds can run some missions almost AFK. Do you have the personal confidence level to attempt burners?

Having you maxed out the direct mission reward skills?
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