These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why no capships in high-sec?

First post
Author
Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#121 - 2017-04-22 08:00:44 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:

War decs by corps with the means to use cap-ships would just be so much fun for those who do not have access to cap-ships - i.e. most hi-sec players.

Capships aren't undefeatable by smaller ships. Happens all the time.
Jacques d'Orleans
#122 - 2017-04-22 09:16:41 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The majority of the above is absolutely incorrect. The initial lineup of ships were in line with relative jumps in size and roles of WW2 naval vessels. They also had the same names and roles.

As for upkeep it wouldn't matter who the owner is. It could be something as simple as significant fuel costs or capital sized repair modules requiring specialized repair pastes or repair time so deploying them other than for serious battles becomes problematic.


Infinity Ziona, you really should re-read some books about WW2 Shipclasses and WW2 Naval Warfare.
None of the mentioned shipclasses in EvE has any resemblence except the ships class name with a WW2 Naval ship.

First of all the Frigates, the Frigates in WW2 which were built in high numbers, specially by the Royal Navy, because they were faster to build than a Fleet Destroyer and better suited for their intended use (Convoy protection in the North Atlantic). The sole purpose of a Frigate (In the USN: Destroyer Escort, In the German Kriegsmarine: Flottenbegleiter (Fleet Escort) or simply F-Boot)) was Convoy Protection against Submarines and ASW. Nothing else. A typical RN Frigates was this one. None of the frigates in game is similar to the frigates and their original roles.

Destroyers were originally invented to fight Frigates and Torpedoboats and other short range attacking naval crafts while escorting a Fleet or Battle Group. In WW2 Destroyers were also used for Convoy protection, ASW and with some special Destroyer classes as fast transport or minelayers. The problem with destroyers in their role as Convoy Protection was that their engines were not able to run the rquired low speeds with out guzzling huge amount of fuel, the Destroyer was ment to be a speed boat with up to 45 knots mas. speed.
Not one of the Destroyers in the game, resembles a destroyer and its fields of use!

Cruisers, there many Cruiser classes in WW2 like Light Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers, AAA Cruisers.
Not one of the Cruisers in Eve is near similar to these ships and its roles.

Battle Cruisers originally were invented fast scout ships for large fleets, battle groups or as commerce raiders.

I could go on and on about that, but you'll miss the point anyways, as always, some could say.

TL,DR:
The only thing the ships of EvE have in common with their real life counterparts is their names, not more not less.

You'll never will fight a fleet engagement in EvE like a real life fleet battle, simple as that.
While in real life out-manouvering the enemy fleet was a important naval tactic and naval engagements were decided not only by superior numbers but also by speed, logistics and cleverness and often also by outsmarting the enemy fleet commander, fleet fights in EVE are nothing more like your usual Saturday Night Pub Brawl, where drunkards beat the **** out of each other right before the pubs door.
EvE and real life Naval warfare are as far away from each other as Earth from Mars. Simple as that.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2017-04-22 13:35:51 UTC
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The majority of the above is absolutely incorrect. The initial lineup of ships were in line with relative jumps in size and roles of WW2 naval vessels. They also had the same names and roles.

As for upkeep it wouldn't matter who the owner is. It could be something as simple as significant fuel costs or capital sized repair modules requiring specialized repair pastes or repair time so deploying them other than for serious battles becomes problematic.


Infinity Ziona, you really should re-read some books about WW2 Shipclasses and WW2 Naval Warfare.
None of the mentioned shipclasses in EvE has any resemblence except the ships class name with a WW2 Naval ship.

First of all the Frigates, the Frigates in WW2 which were built in high numbers, specially by the Royal Navy, because they were faster to build than a Fleet Destroyer and better suited for their intended use (Convoy protection in the North Atlantic). The sole purpose of a Frigate (In the USN: Destroyer Escort, In the German Kriegsmarine: Flottenbegleiter (Fleet Escort) or simply F-Boot)) was Convoy Protection against Submarines and ASW. Nothing else. A typical RN Frigates was this one. None of the frigates in game is similar to the frigates and their original roles.

Destroyers were originally invented to fight Frigates and Torpedoboats and other short range attacking naval crafts while escorting a Fleet or Battle Group. In WW2 Destroyers were also used for Convoy protection, ASW and with some special Destroyer classes as fast transport or minelayers. The problem with destroyers in their role as Convoy Protection was that their engines were not able to run the rquired low speeds with out guzzling huge amount of fuel, the Destroyer was ment to be a speed boat with up to 45 knots mas. speed.
Not one of the Destroyers in the game, resembles a destroyer and its fields of use!

Cruisers, there many Cruiser classes in WW2 like Light Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers, AAA Cruisers.
Not one of the Cruisers in Eve is near similar to these ships and its roles.

Battle Cruisers originally were invented fast scout ships for large fleets, battle groups or as commerce raiders.

I could go on and on about that, but you'll miss the point anyways, as always, some could say.

TL,DR:
The only thing the ships of EvE have in common with their real life counterparts is their names, not more not less.

You'll never will fight a fleet engagement in EvE like a real life fleet battle, simple as that.
While in real life out-manouvering the enemy fleet was a important naval tactic and naval engagements were decided not only by superior numbers but also by speed, logistics and cleverness and often also by outsmarting the enemy fleet commander, fleet fights in EVE are nothing more like your usual Saturday Night Pub Brawl, where drunkards beat the **** out of each other right before the pubs door.
EvE and real life Naval warfare are as far away from each other as Earth from Mars. Simple as that.

Rubbish.

Frigates in RL were similar to frigs in EvE.

Majority did coastal patrols n recon. Some did convoys but they were not really suited to it draught being too shallow. They were cheap recon / patrol. Like EvE frigates. They were also tackle, shadowing targets until bigger ships or planes arrived. In RL they were the smaller ship just like in EvE. They had small fast tracking guns and depth charges (aoe bombs) just like in EvE.

Destroyers were bigger than frigs with much increased firepower, armor but had frigate sized guns, they were fast and designed to combat frigates and other destroyers. When they were designed convoy system didn't exist so were never designed for convoy duty. Their primary role was escorting and assisting larger fleets but they did everything from ship combat (Dunkirk, Guadalcanal), ASW work, troop and supply work (Guadalcanal), coastal harbor patrol and one even was loaded with TNT n suocided a floating dock in Europe (France if I recall). They were introduced into EvE as the second smallest ship (like RL) to combat small ships (like real life).

Cruisers in WW2 were combat ships of medium size with medium guns (like in EvE) they had faster tracking guns than battleships (like EvE) but larger and slower tracking than frigates and destroyers (like EvE).

Battle cruisers in RL had cruiser or battleship sized guns but had less armor (like EvE) than battleships.

Battleships had large guns, were not as agile but had much more armor.

The line up of ships in EvE was clearly modeled on gun size, role, armor, speed and name to RL WW2 naval era ships.

I wrote that all from my own head. I'm obsessed with WW2 naval history, watched every movie, read every book I could find, played Aces High, Aces of the Deep. Silent Hunter 1 - 5, most non hex based war sims, watched every doco that was ever made on WW2 and I'm a 15 year member of subsim.com.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#124 - 2017-04-22 14:15:32 UTC
It is true the main direct-fire DPS ships of Eve Online were initially modeled after the real life ships of WW II, and then adapted to the nature of Eve Online's combat model. Prior to WW II, Frigates were actually larger than Destroyers.

But to be more accurate I'd say that Eve Online is an amalgamation of types of ships from many time-frames of real life and many from science fiction. I'd almost say that Eve Online has too many ship types, or is close to it.

At some point the Devs are going to have to make a much larger effort to refresh the game in other ways than create a new ship class. I'd say we are very close to that now. Once all the faction variations to Caps and Supers, I think the writing will be on the wall.

One big difference between Eve and WW II ships is the larger spread of mid-sized ships.

I think this would be a better analogy of ship classes.


Eve Class (RL version)

Supers (Sci Fi wet dream)
Dreads (Pre Dom Sov, Sci Fi - Post Dom Sov, Ships of Line)

Battleships ( Pre Dom Sov, Ships of the line - Post Dom Sov, Battlecruiser with a broken engine)
Battlecruisers (Heavy Cruisers, except ones with BS sized guns, they are inline with BCs)
Cruisers (Cruisers / Light Cruisers)
Destroyers (Destroyer)
Frigates (Frigate)

Of course that ignores all the Tech II and Tech III ships....

This is a game, and things need to be done to keep players interested.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#125 - 2017-04-22 19:15:40 UTC
Again clicking like for the epic handle.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2017-04-23 05:22:15 UTC
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
It is true the main direct-fire DPS ships of Eve Online were initially modeled after the real life ships of WW II, and then adapted to the nature of Eve Online's combat model. Prior to WW II, Frigates were actually larger than Destroyers.

But to be more accurate I'd say that Eve Online is an amalgamation of types of ships from many time-frames of real life and many from science fiction. I'd almost say that Eve Online has too many ship types, or is close to it.

At some point the Devs are going to have to make a much larger effort to refresh the game in other ways than create a new ship class. I'd say we are very close to that now. Once all the faction variations to Caps and Supers, I think the writing will be on the wall.

One big difference between Eve and WW II ships is the larger spread of mid-sized ships.

I think this would be a better analogy of ship classes.


Eve Class (RL version)

Supers (Sci Fi wet dream)
Dreads (Pre Dom Sov, Sci Fi - Post Dom Sov, Ships of Line)

Battleships ( Pre Dom Sov, Ships of the line - Post Dom Sov, Battlecruiser with a broken engine)
Battlecruisers (Heavy Cruisers, except ones with BS sized guns, they are inline with BCs)
Cruisers (Cruisers / Light Cruisers)
Destroyers (Destroyer)
Frigates (Frigate)

Of course that ignores all the Tech II and Tech III ships....

This is a game, and things need to be done to keep players interested.


Well said. I think they've added too many ship types as well, at the expense of balancing the existing ships. There's been situations where the game was almost too broken to play (sentry alpha phase) and they continued adding more ships rather than balance. I think they're philosophy is add more ships = more players and they don't see past that.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Cade Windstalker
#127 - 2017-04-23 06:21:30 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Rubbish.

Frigates in RL were similar to frigs in EvE.

Majority did coastal patrols n recon. Some did convoys but they were not really suited to it draught being too shallow. They were cheap recon / patrol. Like EvE frigates. They were also tackle, shadowing targets until bigger ships or planes arrived. In RL they were the smaller ship just like in EvE. They had small fast tracking guns and depth charges (aoe bombs) just like in EvE.


First off, this is flatly incorrect. Both the US and Great Britain classified their primary Convoy Escorts as Frigates. For example the Captain Class Frigate (A Destroyer Escort in the USN) was one of the more prolific Frigates of the war and was specifically designed for Convoy Escort duty.

Also Depth Charges bear zero resemblance to Bombs in Eve. A Depth Charge wasn't an AOE weapon it was a targeted weapon, but the ability to target submarines at that time was minimal. Also it doesn't have any of the characteristics of punching above its weight that a Bomber in Eve has.

In fact just the fact that a Frigate in Eve is a substantial threat to a Battleship makes the whole notion of class similarity here ridiculous.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
Destroyers were bigger than frigs with much increased firepower, armor but had frigate sized guns, they were fast and designed to combat frigates and other destroyers. When they were designed convoy system didn't exist so were never designed for convoy duty. Their primary role was escorting and assisting larger fleets but they did everything from ship combat (Dunkirk, Guadalcanal), ASW work, troop and supply work (Guadalcanal), coastal harbor patrol and one even was loaded with TNT n suocided a floating dock in Europe (France if I recall). They were introduced into EvE as the second smallest ship (like RL) to combat small ships (like real life).


Destroyers generally had laughably thin armor for a start, and their guns were often no better than those on a Frigate, especially by WW2. On top of that the primary qualification across all Navies for a Destroyer by the time of WW2 was the presence of Torpedoes on the boat.

The originally came about to defend larger ships from Torpedo boats and then became torpeodo boats themselves. They got used as pickets, screening ships, and many other roles as well as convoy duty. The US Navy treated purpose-built Convoy ships as a sub-classification of Destroyer, the Destroyer Escort.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
Cruisers in WW2 were combat ships of medium size with medium guns (like in EvE) they had faster tracking guns than battleships (like EvE) but larger and slower tracking than frigates and destroyers (like EvE).

Battle cruisers in RL had cruiser or battleship sized guns but had less armor (like EvE) than battleships.

Battleships had large guns, were not as agile but had much more armor.


BCs in Eve have Cruiser sized guns but at or near Battleship levels of armor, nothing like real life, at least until the ABCs came out but that was relatively recently and is atypical of the hull size in Eve.

The Cruiser description here is incredibly vague and could easily be condensed down to "medium sized". Yes, both Cruisers in Eve and Cruisers in real life are roughly medium sized ships. That means basically nothing. Also some of them had laughably bad turret traverse, it all depended on the ship and the tech that went into it.

Again, the Battleship description here is incredibly vague and it's clear you're stretching. A real life Battleship was a floating fortress in its time, and as they advanced they absolutely bristled with guns. Any of the mid to late WW2 Battleship designs had as much firepower as several Destroyers or Cruisers without accounting for the main guns, and a massive anti-air defense, though that wasn't enough to protect them effectively from air attack as was repeatedly demonstrated.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
The line up of ships in EvE was clearly modeled on gun size, role, armor, speed and name to RL WW2 naval era ships.

I wrote that all from my own head. I'm obsessed with WW2 naval history, watched every movie, read every book I could find, played Aces High, Aces of the Deep. Silent Hunter 1 - 5, most non hex based war sims, watched every doco that was ever made on WW2 and I'm a 15 year member of subsim.com.


They took the basic ship classes as something people could relate to in terms of size, as many other games have done before and since.

They did not take the roles, the uses of the ships, or anything else of any meaningful importance from them.

Comparing Eve ships to real life ships and then declaring that the Eve ship should more closely model the real life ship is ridiculous. You may as well say that some Eve ships resemble vegetables so they should contain more Vitamin C.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#128 - 2017-04-23 09:03:54 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

First off, this is flatly incorrect. Both the US and Great Britain classified their primary Convoy Escorts as Frigates. For example the Captain Class Frigate (A Destroyer Escort in the USN) was one of the more prolific Frigates of the war and was specifically designed for Convoy Escort duty.

Also Depth Charges bear zero resemblance to Bombs in Eve. A Depth Charge wasn't an AOE weapon it was a targeted weapon, but the ability to target submarines at that time was minimal. Also it doesn't have any of the characteristics of punching above its weight that a Bomber in Eve has.

In fact just the fact that a Frigate in Eve is a substantial threat to a Battleship makes the whole notion of class similarity here ridiculous.

Destroyers generally had laughably thin armor for a start, and their guns were often no better than those on a Frigate, especially by WW2. On top of that the primary qualification across all Navies for a Destroyer by the time of WW2 was the presence of Torpedoes on the boat.

The originally came about to defend larger ships from Torpedo boats and then became torpeodo boats themselves. They got used as pickets, screening ships, and many other roles as well as convoy duty. The US Navy treated purpose-built Convoy ships as a sub-classification of Destroyer, the Destroyer Escort.

BCs in Eve have Cruiser sized guns but at or near Battleship levels of armor, nothing like real life, at least until the ABCs came out but that was relatively recently and is atypical of the hull size in Eve.

The Cruiser description here is incredibly vague and could easily be condensed down to "medium sized". Yes, both Cruisers in Eve and Cruisers in real life are roughly medium sized ships. That means basically nothing. Also some of them had laughably bad turret traverse, it all depended on the ship and the tech that went into it.

Again, the Battleship description here is incredibly vague and it's clear you're stretching. A real life Battleship was a floating fortress in its time, and as they advanced they absolutely bristled with guns. Any of the mid to late WW2 Battleship designs had as much firepower as several Destroyers or Cruisers without accounting for the main guns, and a massive anti-air defense, though that wasn't enough to protect them effectively from air attack as was repeatedly demonstrated.

They took the basic ship classes as something people could relate to in terms of size, as many other games have done before and since.

They did not take the roles, the uses of the ships, or anything else of any meaningful importance from them.

Comparing Eve ships to real life ships and then declaring that the Eve ship should more closely model the real life ship is ridiculous. You may as well say that some Eve ships resemble vegetables so they should contain more Vitamin C.

Destroyers were extremely dangerous to battleships for the same reason submarines were. Destroyers usually had sets of torpedo tubes. In the Battle for Guadacanal the Japanese used their long lance torpedo's on several occasions to defeat heavy US warships.

Depth charges were AoE weapons. You dropped them in the vicinity of a suspected submarine. The depth charge did not need to contact the submarine just detonate nearby based on a depth activated detonator. The force of the explosion caused an AoE pressure that could rip open or crush a submarine, or force it to surface.

The Captain Class frigate was based on a DE (Destroyer Escort) not a frigate and was built starting 1942 after the convoy system had been established. At the beginning of the war frigates were coastal warships, they were not suited to the open ocean. At the beginning of the war the convoy system did not exist and hadn't even been imagined. Initially duing the "happy times" for submariners ships were unescorted and easy targets.

Destroyers were bigger, better armored, had more firepower than frigates because they were supposed to engage in sea battles with the fleet.

BC in EvE have nowhere near the EHP of a BS. The only BC that can come close are T2's but they're still shy of 50,000 hp on average. Learn to EvE.

As for your cruiser battleship comment, cruisers are medium in both EvE and RL, have medium guns and tracking. Battleships follow the same vein. Its not how much I said its the quality of what I said. They are clearly similiar in both EvE and RL to their respective counterparts.

CCP clearly modelled the ships in EvE on the respectively named ships in RL in their basic and most understood roles, sizes and main armaments.

Sorry your wrong but please go google some more rubbish you don't understand and I'll continue to school you :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Jacques d'Orleans
#129 - 2017-04-23 10:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jacques d'Orleans
Infinity Ziona wrote:

CCP clearly modelled the ships in EvE on the respectively named ships in RL in their basic and most understood roles, sizes and main armaments.

Sorry your wrong but please go google some more rubbish you don't understand and I'll continue to school you :)


Says the guy who has his knowledge about Naval Warfare from playing computer games.
Bwahahahaha, seriously, dude, you're in no way qualified to school others.
Subsim, my arse.

You're the same ridicilious plonker as the 12 year olds on YouTube, who think they're a expert on assault rifles because they play CoD.
Seriosly, dude, get a life.

Edit: But the biggest difference between you, me and Cade is, that we have fun playing the game, as you are just a bitter and salty human being, I pitty you.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2017-04-23 12:14:03 UTC
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

CCP clearly modelled the ships in EvE on the respectively named ships in RL in their basic and most understood roles, sizes and main armaments.

Sorry your wrong but please go google some more rubbish you don't understand and I'll continue to school you :)


Says the guy who has his knowledge about Naval Warfare from playing computer games.
Bwahahahaha, seriously, dude, you're in no way qualified to school others.
Subsim, my arse.

You're the same ridicilious plonker as the 12 year olds on YouTube, who think they're a expert on assault rifles because they play CoD.
Seriosly, dude, get a life.

Edit: But the biggest difference between you, me and Cade is, that we have fun playing the game, as you are just a bitter and salty human being, I pitty you.

You'd be surprised what you learn from good historical war sims and their subsequent modding for historical accuracy. However you deliberately ignored my mention of documentaries, books and other sources which I included. Been interested in WW2 since I was a kid. Especially submarines and naval warfare, a good 30 years and I'm a prolific reader.

As for the comparison between someone claiming to be an expert on rifles and me - I never claimed to be an expert but I am very knowledgeable on the subject.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
Initiative Mercenaries
#131 - 2017-04-23 15:49:47 UTC
Infinity, this is a video game about spaceships. The conventions of naval warfare were never going to apply 100% to this space-based game.

Just drop the subject.
Nalena Linova
Virtus Crusade
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#132 - 2017-04-24 00:47:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

BC in EvE have nowhere near the EHP of a BS. The only BC that can come close are T2's but they're still shy of 50,000 hp on average. Learn to EvE.


T1 BCs generally have between 70-80% of the tank of a T1 battleship, depending on the respective hull bonuses of both ships. Command ships far outstrip T1 battleships in EHP, and are generally on par with the tanks of faction and pirate battleships.
CMDR-HerpyDerpy Hurishima
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#133 - 2017-05-01 05:15:35 UTC
Fun little story my brother told me about this game that he witnessed about 5 or so years ago.
Appariently he was watching a supercap in high-sec battling it out with hundreds of concord ships
the super cap died after about an hour because he couldnt kill the concord as fast as they were coming in (or maybe he wasnt tanked enough? XD) i can imagine a hoard of scavengers coming to play
Josef Djugashvilis
#134 - 2017-05-01 06:32:44 UTC
This thread has wandered into the Twilight Zone and should be closed.

This is not a signature.

BSchneider
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2017-05-01 09:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: BSchneider
Beast of Revelations wrote:

No, I'm for ships that everyone can fly and enjoy with dynamic gameplay along with straightline balance. I'm not for ships a few old vets fly. How many legit new players start and say "hey I'm going to train straight into a cap ship and wait 6+ months."

Personally, I want to see even BIGGER capships. I want to see something beyond Titans. I want to see Super Titans - like death stars the size of moons, flying battlestations bristling with weapons, fighters coming out of them, ships which can dock up inside, doomsday devices, etc. I say "more more MORE," not "less less LESS."


Super Titans and flying battlestations.... YES! For the love of god ... YES!!!!!!

Don't rage too much regarding my comparison here - but I picture the flyving battlestations just like the Cylon Basestars in Battlestar Galatica:

http://orig09.deviantart.net/f052/f/2013/361/b/1/cylon_basestar__new__ortho_by_unusualsuspex-d6zik7t.jpg
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
Initiative Mercenaries
#136 - 2017-05-02 18:26:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Pryce Caesar
BSchneider wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:

No, I'm for ships that everyone can fly and enjoy with dynamic gameplay along with straightline balance. I'm not for ships a few old vets fly. How many legit new players start and say "hey I'm going to train straight into a cap ship and wait 6+ months."

Personally, I want to see even BIGGER capships. I want to see something beyond Titans. I want to see Super Titans - like death stars the size of moons, flying battlestations bristling with weapons, fighters coming out of them, ships which can dock up inside, doomsday devices, etc. I say "more more MORE," not "less less LESS."


Super Titans and flying battlestations.... YES! For the love of god ... YES!!!!!!

Don't rage too much regarding my comparison here - but I picture the flyving battlestations just like the Cylon Basestars in Battlestar Galatica:

http://orig09.deviantart.net/f052/f/2013/361/b/1/cylon_basestar__new__ortho_by_unusualsuspex-d6zik7t.jpg


Then I direct you to a topic I made a while back:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6863510#post6863510

But as I will state here and now, the ship type I suggested in this topic would have to make sense for a lore standpoint.
Keno Skir
#137 - 2017-05-02 18:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

CCP clearly modelled the ships in EvE on the respectively named ships in RL in their basic and most understood roles, sizes and main armaments.

Sorry your wrong but please go google some more rubbish you don't understand and I'll continue to school you :)


Says the guy who has his knowledge about Naval Warfare from playing computer games.
Bwahahahaha, seriously, dude, you're in no way qualified to school others.
Subsim, my arse.

You're the same ridicilious plonker as the 12 year olds on YouTube, who think they're a expert on assault rifles because they play CoD.
Seriosly, dude, get a life.

Edit: But the biggest difference between you, me and Cade is, that we have fun playing the game, as you are just a bitter and salty human being, I pitty you.

You'd be surprised what you learn from good historical war sims and their subsequent modding for historical accuracy. However you deliberately ignored my mention of documentaries, books and other sources which I included. Been interested in WW2 since I was a kid. Especially submarines and naval warfare, a good 30 years and I'm a prolific reader.

As for the comparison between someone claiming to be an expert on rifles and me - I never claimed to be an expert but I am very knowledgeable on the subject.


Honestly the "real life ships vs EvE ships" bit has been done to death.

Nobody actually cares about similarities between EvE and the real world, regardless who has played the most sim games or read the most books about naval warfare. You're both amateurs arguing over top trumps cards.
Cade Windstalker
#138 - 2017-05-02 20:36:53 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Destroyers were extremely dangerous to battleships for the same reason submarines were. Destroyers usually had sets of torpedo tubes. In the Battle for Guadacanal the Japanese used their long lance torpedo's on several occasions to defeat heavy US warships.


Which bears zero resemblance to how Frigates are used or function in Eve with the exception of Bombers and even that's sketchy at best. A Frigate or Destroyer in Eve has small guns and needs to either get under the guns of a poorly equipped Battleship or work with a lot of other Frigates in order to kill anything BS sized. They don't use anything resembling Torpedoes or Torpedo tactics.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
Depth charges were AoE weapons. You dropped them in the vicinity of a suspected submarine. The depth charge did not need to contact the submarine just detonate nearby based on a depth activated detonator. The force of the explosion caused an AoE pressure that could rip open or crush a submarine, or force it to surface.


"Nearby" in this case was almost directly on top of the sub. The kill radius was only a few meters and even the range where any significant damage would be caused was around 10 meters. Past that you'd be lucky to pop their eardrums. For a boat that's more than 10m wide that's hardly an AOE weapon. In fact there's a rather infamous case where the Japanese were, for months, failing to sink submarines due to having their depth-charges set at too shallow a depth. Then a Senator bragged about this at a press conference and a few months later sub losses increased.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
The Captain Class frigate was based on a DE (Destroyer Escort) not a frigate and was built starting 1942 after the convoy system had been established. At the beginning of the war frigates were coastal warships, they were not suited to the open ocean. At the beginning of the war the convoy system did not exist and hadn't even been imagined. Initially duing the "happy times" for submariners ships were unescorted and easy targets.


This ship was literally commissioned explicitly to send to Britain to be used as a convoy escort, and the US Navy had no Frigates. The Destroyer Escort class from the USN is explicitly comparable to the Frigates of other Navies as shown by the Captain Class *Frigate* entering service with the Royal Navy as a Frigate.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
Destroyers were bigger, better armored, had more firepower than frigates because they were supposed to engage in sea battles with the fleet.

BC in EvE have nowhere near the EHP of a BS. The only BC that can come close are T2's but they're still shy of 50,000 hp on average. Learn to EvE.


You're sort of right on the Destroyers but flat wrong on the BCs. BCs in Eve very easily get at or close to Battleship levels of EHP and a T2 BC, aka a Command Ship, easily doubles a similarly tanked BC's EHP.

Real life Destroyers though weren't any better armored than a Frigate though, and calling either class 'armored' is being extremely generous outside of a few weird exceptions in certain Navies. Mostly their plating was meant to keep out water and small arms fire, and not much else.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
As for your cruiser battleship comment, cruisers are medium in both EvE and RL, have medium guns and tracking. Battleships follow the same vein. Its not how much I said its the quality of what I said. They are clearly similiar in both EvE and RL to their respective counterparts.

CCP clearly modelled the ships in EvE on the respectively named ships in RL in their basic and most understood roles, sizes and main armaments.

Sorry your wrong but please go google some more rubbish you don't understand and I'll continue to school you :)


They're really not similar, at all. A Cruiser vs a Battleship in Eve has the potential to be a good fight, a Cruiser vs a Battleship in real life was one main gun hit away from over for the Cruiser at any time. Again, just being medium sized is not enough to draw any sort of correlation between the name and the functionality.

They really really didn't, it's blatantly obvious that they just used them as size indicators, especially when you consider that the original three were just Frigates, Cruisers, and Battleships, aka Small, Medium, and Large and their basic roles in Eve's starting gameplay were if anything *further* from real life then compared to now.

The only thing you're schooling here is a class on bad naval history. Seriously, you're making massively over-broad generalizations that are clearly based on the *non-historical* aspects of a few naval games. Your Destroyer/Frigate facts are laughably off as is your skant knowledge of RN and USN doctrine from around and before WW2.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#139 - 2017-05-02 22:17:37 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

CCP clearly modelled the ships in EvE on the respectively named ships in RL in their basic and most understood roles, sizes and main armaments.

Sorry your wrong but please go google some more rubbish you don't understand and I'll continue to school you :)


Says the guy who has his knowledge about Naval Warfare from playing computer games.
Bwahahahaha, seriously, dude, you're in no way qualified to school others.
Subsim, my arse.

You're the same ridicilious plonker as the 12 year olds on YouTube, who think they're a expert on assault rifles because they play CoD.
Seriosly, dude, get a life.

Edit: But the biggest difference between you, me and Cade is, that we have fun playing the game, as you are just a bitter and salty human being, I pitty you.

You'd be surprised what you learn from good historical war sims and their subsequent modding for historical accuracy. However you deliberately ignored my mention of documentaries, books and other sources which I included. Been interested in WW2 since I was a kid. Especially submarines and naval warfare, a good 30 years and I'm a prolific reader.

As for the comparison between someone claiming to be an expert on rifles and me - I never claimed to be an expert but I am very knowledgeable on the subject.


Dude .. you completley misunderstandthe role of Destroyers in naval Warefare. You are not "very knowledgeable" ... at all.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2017-05-03 18:10:26 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


They're really not similar, at all. A Cruiser vs a Battleship in Eve has the potential to be a good fight, a Cruiser vs a Battleship in real life was one main gun hit away from over for the Cruiser at any time. Again, just being medium sized is not enough to draw any sort of correlation between the name and the functionality.

They really really didn't, it's blatantly obvious that they just used them as size indicators, especially when you consider that the original three were just Frigates, Cruisers, and Battleships, aka Small, Medium, and Large and their basic roles in Eve's starting gameplay were if anything *further* from real life then compared to now.

The only thing you're schooling here is a class on bad naval history. Seriously, you're making massively over-broad generalizations that are clearly based on the *non-historical* aspects of a few naval games. Your Destroyer/Frigate facts are laughably off as is your skant knowledge of RN and USN doctrine from around and before WW2.

You're incorrect. There were a number of engagements involving cruisers and destroyers vs battleships in WW2. One that I recall was a night action in Guadacanal in which a number of cruisers damaged and drove off a number of battleships. The Japanese had excellent torpedo's that were a significant threat to battleships. A destroyer could easily cripple a battleship if it hit with its torps.

Ships in EvE early on had the exact same roles as their rl equivalents actually. You're incorrect.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)