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About those, who call the real war "Pendulum"

Author
Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
#41 - 2017-04-30 12:47:42 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Think of all the lives that could be saved by ending this with a negotiated peace.



But I thought CONCORD was supposed to be in the business of brokering peace?

CONCORD's definition of peace is a lot like my definition of chastity.


“Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?”

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2017-04-30 13:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Diana Kim wrote:
Have you been welcomed by people liberated from gallente oppression? Have you read the hope in their eyes?


No, and neither have you. Not in the CEWPA warzone. There are no Caldari worlds in that warzone that were not intentionally made a part of the fighting by the State.

Every Caldari planet in danger of 'Gallente oppression' is there because the State, in effect, sold it to CONCORD to be used as a goalpost in their bloodsport. And for all your fervor and devotion, the State doesn't care about those worlds anymore. The State doesn't care about those worlds, and they don't care about the people on them. The State collaborated with the Federation to create a shiny little fishbowl for you to swim in... and they are laughing at you.

Together.

And for all Mizhara's venom at me for being an appeaser because I say that right now we need to use subtler weapons than violence, that is just as true of the Empire and the Republic. All four of them, through CONCORD, have sold you a package of lies and called it a 'noble cause'. And the sooner you and everyone else in those blood-soaked games realize that, and get fed up with being marionettes, dancing your bloody dance for their pleasure, the better off the entire cluster will be.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
#43 - 2017-04-30 13:03:40 UTC
Sinti Vailatti wrote:
CONCORD's definition of peace is a lot like my definition of chastity.


"not doing it in the streets and frightening the horses" ?

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#44 - 2017-04-30 14:23:16 UTC
Arrendis wrote:

No, and neither have you. Not in the CEWPA warzone. There are no Caldari worlds in that warzone that were not intentionally made a part of the fighting by the State.

Every Caldari planet in danger of 'Gallente oppression' is there because the State, in effect, sold it to CONCORD to be used as a goalpost in their bloodsport. And for all your fervor and devotion, the State doesn't care about those worlds anymore. The State doesn't care about those worlds, and they don't care about the people on them. The State collaborated with the Federation to create a shiny little fishbowl for you to swim in... and they are laughing at you.

Together.

And for all Mizhara's venom at me for being an appeaser because I say that right now we need to use subtler weapons than violence, that is just as true of the Empire and the Republic. All four of them, through CONCORD, have sold you a package of lies and called it a 'noble cause'. And the sooner you and everyone else in those blood-soaked games realize that, and get fed up with being marionettes, dancing your bloody dance for their pleasure, the better off the entire cluster will be.


I find it intereseting that people in general don´t grasp this concept easily. But then again, it´s because of this kind of people that we have organized institutions playing with the cluster trough puppets, even enhanced ones.

Pick your preffered illusion powerful puppets, pick one and be happy.

In a controled, organized fashion.

Join Project Transcendence.

Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
#45 - 2017-04-30 17:02:52 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Can we do better than this?


A good question. We're weapons in this war; naval combat's kind of our focus. Fire and death is in a way our default, so, maybe we really can't.

Maybe we can, though.

It seems like, for real dialog to happen, it needs to be understood that there can be a lot of daylight between someone who is loyal to their nation, or even a "loyalist," and a nationalist. (There's a scale of nationalists, too; it seems like both the Patriots and Templis Dragonaurs can be fairly described as nationalist entities.) It's basically the difference between liking where you live, wanting it to be safe, and being willing to stand up for it, versus wanting all possible power (or at least lots and lots of it) to gather at that place and in the hands of those people.

I tend to see the balance of power between the empires as a good thing. It keeps the peace, such as it is, and lets us live alongside each other for the most part. It lets people live peaceful lives, and the longer it lasts, the less likely it might become that someone will decide they ought to break it.

I suspect that there are a lot of "loyalists" who'd agree with me. A nationalist likely wouldn't, or would see the balance of power as a tool, an opportunity to jockey for position: "Why should my nation accept this endless stalemate? If we gather our strength, we can seize the advantage. It's the only way to assure our safety."

Happily there are people like that everywhere, so they maybe kind of cancel each other out by driving self-interested programs that mostly either get cancelled out by someone else's advances somewhere else or get shared by treaty or stolen by spies or something. Only, sometimes someone gets a real advantage, and then there's trouble-- especially when they mistakenly think it's a decisive one.

So, in a way, the status quo seems acceptable to me. The empires trade and bicker; the "Pendulum War" draws in strong partisans and thins their numbers while maybe simultaneously sharpening them up as tools of war without breaking the balance of power; those of us in the middle get on with our lives with a solid, reliable infrastructure still in place to support us.

Civilization remains. It probably will, whatever we small, dangerously-independent weapons do. So maybe in a way it doesn't matter whether we, ourselves, can do better. In a sense, if we can reach no common ground and all we can do is kill each other, we're only doing what we're supposed to. It's what we're for.

Only ... maybe, if we could do better ...

Ending the Pendulum War or reducing our cluster-wide body count seems like too much to hope for, but it's not like we don't have strong interests in common. There are mysteries and threats that haunt us all: Sansha's Nation, the Drifters. We can work together in a crisis; the Kyonoke Inquest proved it. Even the outer powers helped us do what we needed to. It was a Goonswarm pilot who found the final vial.

There's no need to resolve everything right now. Tensions and differences are always going to be there; it's not like they disappeared even during the Inquest. But, maybe if we set those aside for a while, to the degree we can, and focus on resolving the problems we really do share, other paths forward might open by the end.

Probably some of us will do just that-- some of us already do-- and some on the fringes will denounce us for it. That's okay. That's inevitable, even. New Eden's broad enough to leave paths open for just about everybody.

The question, I guess, more, is what your own path will be, Mr. Syagrius.
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#46 - 2017-04-30 18:06:23 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
I'm surprised at you, Ayallah. You know better than to say this as if it's the end of it. "Your second point should have been: Take away the second and at the least the number of people killing each other [b]there[/i] will reduce."

Do you think for one moment those people wouldn't be killing people somewhere else? Do you think they'd all go and be miners? You're not an idiot. You know damned well they'd be killing people somewhere else. They might even go out killing miners and haulers and other non-combatants, just ot get their kicks and make their money doing what they're good at: killing people.
As fun as it is to read your argument style and watch you daze yourself with words I am not going to engage you in a debate with the subject: "If you stop people from killing each other they will just go kill each other somewhere else so do not bother."

This is a child's understanding and I am not surprised at you.
But I know you are just arguing against every point everyone makes to entertain yourself anyway.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2017-04-30 18:10:25 UTC
Ultimately, the underlying causes of the tensions need to be addressed before we can hope for anything more than what we've got.

The Gallente need to get the hel off Caldari Prime. It's lovely and all that those colonists have lived there for centuries, but it's the whole 'fruit of the poisoned tree' problem. It's illegal to profit from stolen goods in most places—including the Federation—and that planet was stolen.

The Amarr need to stop using cultural violation (which is not the word that best describes the Reclaiming, but it's all that will get through the censors here) and slavery as acceptable societal tools. The people still enslaved must be released. It's lovely that you all want to bring people to God. It's still a damned criminal act. And because I included the blatant 'this is stolen property, that's why it's wrong by your own damned laws' for the Gallente, and so many damned Amarr seem to think the Reclaiming is somehow a wonderful idea that can't possibly be a damned war crime...

Take Amarr A and Matari B. Amarr A has a [redacted]. Matari B wants nothing to do with the Amarr's [redacted]. The Amarr doesnt' care what the Matari wants. So they just go ahead and try to force their [redacted] into the Matari, regardless of objection, lack of consent, etc. And they keep trying, and keep shoving, again and again, ignoring protests and cries for help, because they want to make sure they leave something behind in there.

Clutch that image to your chests whenever you wax rapturous about the Reclaiming. It doesn't matter if what you're trying to shove into someone without their consent is your culture, your faith, or your meat popsicle. Anyone who advocates doing it deserves nothing short of a bullet to the gonads and a slow, excruciating death. And every Amarr Holder who currently owns slaves is participating.

The State and the Republic need to let go of their need for vengeance.

Caldri, the Federation is not coming to oppress you, your home-grown leaders are more than capable of doing that for themselves. Get back what was yours, and be satisfied with that.

Matari, if the Empire can be persuaded through diplomacy to give up their barbarism and their assault on basic human decency and human rights, we have to accept it, and not try pushing for them to make reparations, or give up their God-nonsense, or whatever else we might think will be necessary to secure lasting peace.

And then, most importantly, and most long-term, we all need to recognize that there is clearly something wrong with armor-tanking ships, because it apparently leads you to invading other peoples' homeworlds.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2017-04-30 18:14:11 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
As fun as it is to read your argument style and watch you daze yourself with words I am not going to engage you in a debate with the subject: "If you stop people from killing each other they will just go kill each other somewhere else so do not bother."

This is a child's understanding and I am not surprised at you.
But I know you are just arguing against every point everyone makes to entertain yourself anyway.


This has been another round of 'I can't actually defend my point, so I'm going to deflect and make a big show of stomping off', featuring the one and only Ayallah! She's here all week, folks, try the gruel.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
#49 - 2017-04-30 18:21:06 UTC
Only, as you're undoubtedly already aware, Arrendis, every single thing you said is more complicated than the way you said it.

By a lot.

If compromise were so easy, we'd have done it already. If we have to fight until those core questions get addressed as you prescribe, we're going to be fighting for a long time.

But there's maybe stuff we can do that doesn't have to wait on resolving all that.
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#50 - 2017-04-30 18:26:58 UTC
I say ending wars leads to killing less people and that you will argue against literally anything and then you say I am avoiding defending my point by stomping off.

Arrendis, you just posted a 'five steps to end all wars.' By your own words 100% of that conflict will just migrate no? So why post a 2nd year student's ideas about how all the myriad insanely complicated problems of New Eden can be solved in five easy steps?

It is because literally all you are in this thread for is to out-post everyone else and win points with some imaginary audience.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

James Syagrius
Reclamation
#51 - 2017-04-30 18:27:28 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:
Mr. Syagrius, my enemy is any nationalist.
Then are you your own enemy? For from my perspective that is exactly what your statements indicate that you are? Perhaps I am wrong.

If you can't distinguish between Tom Horn or Diana Kim and me, then I fear there's no way we can proceed.

As to the rest, it's clear you're not looking for a way forward so much as the usual trading of barbs.

Honestly, in that case, you're not worth the time.
Actually I was, but your reply made it abundantly clear, that you only want 'peace' on your terms.

My aim was to create a space where we might collectively tone down our rhetoric. Without clarification you assumed, a trait you seem to dislike in others, that I had judged you wrongly.

I understand that you are not ideologically akin to Ms. Kim or Mr. Horn. That doesn't mean you are not a nationalist loyal to your own if in a different fashion, as I am.

But as you say, "not worth the time." A pity indeed.
James Syagrius
Reclamation
#52 - 2017-04-30 18:57:32 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Can we do better than this?

The question, I guess, more, is what your own path will be, Mr. Syagrius.
I learned a long time ago Ms. Jenneth, that if you want the gods to laugh tell them your plans.

I am not a complicated man. I simply try to do what I think to be right.

I am faithful to my friends, I oppose with all my merger power those who combat them. I will say what I think to be the truth. I will try to remember that ‘to become angry is easy, but to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose and in the right way is not.’

In short Ms. Jenneth, I will try to do better than this. You might consider the same.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2017-04-30 19:40:42 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Only, as you're undoubtedly already aware, Arrendis, every single thing you said is more complicated than the way you said it.

By a lot.

If compromise were so easy, we'd have done it already. If we have to fight until those core questions get addressed as you prescribe, we're going to be fighting for a long time.

But there's maybe stuff we can do that doesn't have to wait on resolving all that.


We already have. It's called the CEWPA.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#54 - 2017-04-30 19:44:37 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Arrendis, you just posted a 'five steps to end all wars.'


No, Ayallah, I just posted four things that will never happen. And I did it because clearly, there are people here who lack even that understanding of the situation as they bleat out 'we must have peace!' without recognizing that it's not going to happen anywhere near in our lifetimes..
Ayallah
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#55 - 2017-04-30 19:54:11 UTC
They know Arrendis. Most would call it noble to strive for high ideals that you will never see the rewards of.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
#56 - 2017-04-30 20:47:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
James Syagrius wrote:
I learned a long time ago Ms. Jenneth, that if you want the gods to laugh tell them your plans.

I am not a complicated man. I simply try to do what I think to be right.

I am faithful to my friends, I oppose with all my merger power those who combat them. I will say what I think to be the truth. I will try to remember that ‘to become angry is easy, but to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose and in the right way is not.’

In short Ms. Jenneth, I will try to do better than this.


Hehee. I was about to chide you for needling Ms. Priano in preference to continuing the discourse where it was still available.

Thank you for replying to me. If all of this is true, we might actually be kind of similar people. Only, it seems, it's hard to resist tossing a needle my way, as well....

Quote:
You might consider the same.


Implying that I'm not already pursuing such a course. I'm not a very difficult target, if you want to point out flaws, but if you want dialog, might you not want to withhold judgment instead of pressing points and barbs?

My own path is....

While I'm definitely capable of it, anger's not so much my flaw. If anything, I might tend to run too cold rather than too hot. I don't hold grudges for long; even really bitter ones usually fade pretty fast, and, even if they don't, an apology or a kind word and all's forgiven.

There are a lot of ways to go awry, but a big one, for me, is pride. Arrogance is about the closest thing to evil I believe in, so you might guess that it's something I kind of struggle with. It's a little hard, because I'm kind of a clever person. Being clever's a good tool to have (but far from unique, or even really unusual-- clever people aren't rare). I'm not wise, though. That makes it kind of a problem. ... I'm still a little proud of it.

I care a lot about integrity. I don't lie unless the situation demands it. I give my word rarely, and keep it once given. I try to see clearly, and help others do the same. ... I'm proud of that, too.

I treat others' lives a little lightly, too. That's an arrogant thing to do. Some of that is probably necessary for me to do my job, but, it's not something I feel like I can let myself forget.

So ... maybe, you could assume, if I say something cruel, or arrogant, if I trip myself up, say or do things I shouldn't, get cocky or dismissive, that all it means is that, like you, I'm a frail and fragile human being.

It might not mean I'm not trying to do better.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#57 - 2017-04-30 23:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
Valerie Valate wrote:
And at those ratios, the Minmatar would lose the PR war, amongst the Caldari and Gallente peoples. Maybe even become as reviled as Sansha's Nation.

Are you sure you want to make that bet ?


I'm pretty sure the "PR war" would be lost the moment someone starts death-worlding entire planets.

That is assuming that they'd have time to care, what with the State and Federation would probably again be at each others throats at a moments notice if stuff goes down between Minmatar and Amarr, while CONCORD twiddles its thumbs in the background as usual.

Oh, right. Also what Arrendis said, not that it will ever happen.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
#58 - 2017-05-01 00:00:57 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
If we take steps to ensure mutually assured destruction (such as poisoning entire planets), then it's a fight even the Amarrians would be loath to take.


Tell me, would you be willing to bet the inhabited worlds of Heimatar, against all the inhabited worlds of... Aridia ?

Would you be willing to bet the inhabited worlds of Heimatar, against all the inhabited worlds of... Aridia and Devoid ?

Would you be willing to bet the inhabited worlds of Heimatar, against all the inhabited worlds of... Aridia, Devoid, and Genesis ?

Would you be willing to bet the inhabited worlds of Heimatar and Metropolis, against a single Throne World ?


Because that's the stakes you'd have to bet. For minor worlds, the Amarr can trade 3 or 4 for every single Minmatar world. One for one, the Minmatar lose. Hit a Throne world, expect to trade Hek or Matar or Rens for it.

And at those ratios, the Minmatar would lose the PR war, amongst the Caldari and Gallente peoples. Maybe even become as reviled as Sansha's Nation.


Are you sure you want to make that bet ?

If it comes down to open war, and my choices are death or enslavement, yes. I would be willing to make that bet. I would rather die as a free Minmatar then as an Amarrian pet. I would personally burn my on world's simply to prevent Amarrian occupation. I've seen first hand what Vitoc does to a person, I've seen how slaves are treated when people thing nobody's looking, and I can only imagine the psychological trauma that is inflicted after years of being stripped of one's free will. As for the opinion of the other nations, if they couldn't help us push back the Amarr, If they asked us to sacrifice our people for peace, then I couldn't care less. If my people are going to be enslaved, I'd rather my nation die being the villains that removed the cancer in our cluster then for it to simply die quietly under the lash of barbaric religious beliefs.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#59 - 2017-05-01 01:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
James Syagrius wrote:

Two examples in this very thread, from those exposing further accommodations between our factions, keeping in mind I myself am guilty of the same behaviors.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It's not the death, it's more that the war has gone on for so long and has led to... An election where we lost a moderate opponent who, more or less, played by the rules and was sheepish when caught not doing so. In return we got, basically, a war profiteer whose minions don't care about their own rules, let alone anybody elses, and give exactly zero fraks when caught doing the kind of filthy crap that would make a Dragonaur blush.

That, I think, is why we have the war that we have. Nobody, other than certain elements in the Federation and Empire, seems to actively want to bombard inhabited worlds from orbit.
What were your motivations when you added the quoted text? When you say these things how do you think ‘we’ will respond? What do you think ‘we’ hear when ‘we’ read the quoted text? Do you even care?

Again, and in this alone, there are no hidden agendas. We bait each other, then stand astonished when trust and peace allude us.

As I seem to be foolishly disclosing my feelings on the matter in full, I will add a personal note.

Pieter, not so long ago I believed you to be an honest warrior who sought an honorable peace. But you like myself make such an eventuality less likely with your choice of words. While your culpability is limited, recent events have again reinforced in me the belief rightly or wrongly that any peace with the State is tactical, a ruse to gain time considering the acute vs chronic nature of State military projection.

If there is going to be any progress, that doesn’t set us all adrift on a tide of blood we are going to have to foster some measure of trust in one another. We all make this less possible in the manner of our mutual conversations.

I am not asking anyone to abandon their positions or opinions. But our discourse needs to change, mine included.



James, you aren't the only one who has had his heart broken lately. I honestly and truly thought that, perhaps, both sides were tired enough of stalemate to accept an honourable peace. I was wrong. The Patriot and Practical blocs are nervous of Ishukone's new prestige and... I've given up trying to understand the Federal Senate.

Why did I speak as I did? Because I believe it's truth. I think that Roden and Blaque are criminals. I think they're spitting on the laws and traditions of the Federation. I believe they employ other criminals who don't scruple to commit an atrocity if said atrocity is being committed against the Caldari. I believe that they mistake this for realpolitik. I know what goes on in some of the dark corners of the cluster where the news cameras don't penetrate. I believe that Foiritan would never have stooped so low. I believe few of the people I view as Gallente patriots are comfortable with this situation.

I'm no longer convinced that war is inevitable - in fact I'm bringing to an end to the evacuation project on Monday - but I will continue to ship these people out on a much more comfortable schedule, if they so wish, and I will be closing down the Arcology project in favour of a similar one in State space.

I am done with Caldari Prime. I now believe that Home is nothing more than an endless well of pain and loss that exists to tempt The State to do things which put all our people at risk. Without it, we will endure. With it we will be complete. I'm now prepared to entertain a much longer time line on that acquisition - which is good, because I think the Senate will yank that rug out from under Ishukones feet at some time in the near to mid future.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Pieter Tuulinen
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#60 - 2017-05-01 01:08:12 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:

Mr. Syagrius, my enemy is any nationalist.


Ms Priano, should I send a friend to call on your friend? Or do you mean that somewhat more ideologically than that?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.