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Monthly Economic Report - March 2017

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Author
Cade Windstalker
#21 - 2017-04-24 18:36:08 UTC
CCP Quant wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I have brought this up at the CSM level. But some of this data won't match what a player will believe is reality. Or possibly better put, it won't mean what you think it does.

Going to try to get with Quant around some of this as the data isn't accurate unless he is doing something that ignores a huge portion of the data around markets. The more we inspect with our data the more we think there is something really wrong.


Now after a few people raising concerns on this, I took a deep dive into the numbers and the eve metrics backend was indeed resolving the regionIDs of transactions with a stationID, which doesnt resolve to Citadels! This means that the regional trade value numbers have been missing citadels from the start! Total trade value is not affected though, only the regional breakdown.

Thanks for raising the issue!

On the regional mining graph, I removed it temporarily because the underlying data doesnt include drone mining, again only the regional breakdown numbers are wrong.


Awesome, thanks for the response CCP Quant!

Also thanks to Aryth for bringing this up, these reports don't add much value for the playerbase if they're not accurate after all :)

Oh and any chance my first couple of questions could be answered? I have cookies... :D
Emiko P'eng
#22 - 2017-04-24 22:21:31 UTC
Lieutenant Berrendo wrote:

We are talking about monolpoly money smart guy.
As CCP sensibly bans linking to ISK BUYING & SELLING websites just look them up on Google.

If any currency that has an Exchange Rate to Dollars, Pounds, Roubles, etc..

Therefore can be seen as a method of getting in-game Gambling Profits out into the real world.

Therefore CCP is playing safe.

Try gettting real dollars for your Monopoly Money!
CCP Quant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#23 - 2017-04-25 15:53:40 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Quant
Cade Windstalker wrote:
@CCP_Quant, the regional mining figures don't appear to have been included in this report, is this intentional, an oversight, or a result of issues getting the drone data (incluing Rorqual figures) into there?

Also, there's a large spike in the Money Supply that seems to correspond to the recent patch. Is this a result of a change in market activity and the balance of sinks and faucets, or a result of a number of characters suddenly becoming active again?


Aryth wrote:
I have brought this up at the CSM level. But some of this data won't match what a player will believe is reality. Or possibly better put, it won't mean what you think it does.

Going to try to get with Quant around some of this as the data isn't accurate unless he is doing something that ignores a huge portion of the data around markets. The more we inspect with our data the more we think there is something really wrong.


Any chance you can elaborate on which bits of the data you think are weird/off or just speak more generally to what sort of issues you're talking about here?

If you'd rather not spread speculation before talking with Quant I fully understand.



The next economic report will have correct regional mining and trading figures Big smile

The spike in money supply is due to a chunk of users coming back

Outline of the discrepancy in the data :

  • Regional Trade value: The sql procedure that gathers these metrics in detail from the logs did an "inner join" on stationID to a table containing a list of known locations in the eve universe (static data), hence citadels were left out by effect of the inner join, I changed this join to join to the solarSystemID of the transaction instead, so the transactions are now properly assigned to solarsystems and regions in our data backend
  • Mining drones missing from Regional Mining Value: Back in the days before big data we logged (and still log) some events like mining into an sql table. The data job that gathered mining data aggregated by solarSystemID and oreTypeID took its data from this aforementioned sql table. Drone mining events are not logged into that one, but into our event log (big data), so I made a map/reduce job to replace the legacy sql code for getting the data.


Edit: Please bring said cookies to the next player event we will both attend.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#24 - 2017-04-25 16:46:57 UTC
CCP Quant wrote:




Edit: Please bring said cookies to the next player event we will both attend.


I will also bring cookies if I can get into the round table next time :p
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
#25 - 2017-04-25 16:59:53 UTC
Lieutenant Berrendo wrote:
We are talking about monolpoly money smart guy.


See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37385555

Real-life prosecutions are taking place over betting for virtual items. I'm sure that CCP don't want to run foul of the law in the UK - especially as they have business interests in the country.
Cade Windstalker
#26 - 2017-04-25 17:00:23 UTC
CCP Quant wrote:
Edit: Please bring said cookies to the next player event we will both attend.


Guess I'll have to keep an eye out for when you're around the north east of the US. Alternatively I may have to see if I can smuggle cookies on a plane to Iceland some time... really need to make it to Fanfest one of these years! Big smile

Seriously thanks a ton for the answers and for producing stuff like this!

Love me some delicious cookies stats! Pirate
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#27 - 2017-04-25 17:36:50 UTC
Quant are you intentionally trying to confuse people?

You talk about the trade and then suddenly its about the mining data?

HALP.. What data are you taking where?

I hope you are taking the trade data and adding it to the system trade data "container" ?

I think it will be an even weirder report if you add mining data to the trade tables?

ShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked
Cade Windstalker
#28 - 2017-04-25 20:45:36 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
Quant are you intentionally trying to confuse people?

You talk about the trade and then suddenly its about the mining data?

HALP.. What data are you taking where?

I hope you are taking the trade data and adding it to the system trade data "container" ?

I think it will be an even weirder report if you add mining data to the trade tables?

ShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked


Um, his statements were perfectly clear, I asked a couple of different questions, one was about regional mining data and another was about the market data that Aryth was asking about.

That's why there's an answer about Mining data and one about Citadels vs Station IDs.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#29 - 2017-04-25 21:36:41 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
Quant are you intentionally trying to confuse people?

You talk about the trade and then suddenly its about the mining data?

HALP.. What data are you taking where?

I hope you are taking the trade data and adding it to the system trade data "container" ?

I think it will be an even weirder report if you add mining data to the trade tables?

ShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked


Um, his statements were perfectly clear, I asked a couple of different questions, one was about regional mining data and another was about the market data that Aryth was asking about.

That's why there's an answer about Mining data and one about Citadels vs Station IDs.



I think the confusion was this line in the Regional Trade Values bit
Quote:
I changed this join to join to the solarSystemID of the mining event instead, so the mining values are now properly assigned to solarsystems and regions in our data backend
CCP Quant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#30 - 2017-04-26 13:40:47 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
Quant are you intentionally trying to confuse people?

You talk about the trade and then suddenly its about the mining data?

HALP.. What data are you taking where?

I hope you are taking the trade data and adding it to the system trade data "container" ?

I think it will be an even weirder report if you add mining data to the trade tables?

ShockedShockedShockedShockedShocked


Um, his statements were perfectly clear, I asked a couple of different questions, one was about regional mining data and another was about the market data that Aryth was asking about.

That's why there's an answer about Mining data and one about Citadels vs Station IDs.



I think the confusion was this line in the Regional Trade Values bit
Quote:
I changed this join to join to the solarSystemID of the mining event instead, so the mining values are now properly assigned to solarsystems and regions in our data backend


Ahhh, I was confused until I read over my post and saw I mixed mining into the trade section Shocked edited Big smile
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2017-04-26 13:52:42 UTC
Lieutenant Berrendo wrote:
Introduce IN-GAME GAMBLING

Please keep gambling out of EVE.


CCP Quant wrote:
Implementation of Financial instruments in EVE
I realize this is as niche feature as it gets...

Please do make collaterized loans available in-game.
As for a niche... POSes were also utilized by a small portion of the community, right? Then we witnessed Citadel, one of the most successful expansion, followed by Ascension with engineering complexes and refineries are coming soon(tm). Throw us a bone with this simple financial instrument, see how it goes and maybe some way down the road it will result in something bigger.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#32 - 2017-04-26 17:05:23 UTC
ooh faucet break downs!

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#33 - 2017-04-26 21:46:19 UTC
Well that says quite clearly where the isk gets made in EVE.

Regarding the proposals, I think it's important for some intel to get out to players about big moves. This is a game without any baseliner espionage tools but that still relies heavily on espionage, and much like we assume crew costs are covered, we should be assuming that some basic level of intel is available.

Things like regional trade figures and the like are not going to give away secrets of which system holds all the titans (though the manufacturing index might on the map), and making effective use of regional stats for intel requires quite a bit of number crunching and skill, so they should be left, or a basic means to gain such figures should be implemented in game.
Similarly regional bounties can already be sort of guessed as NPC kills are available from the map, so releasing those figures also wouldn't significantly skew intel, or tell you exactly where to find ratters, but it would allow analysis of things.
Tiberius Cragganmore
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2017-04-26 23:55:36 UTC
My 2 cents on the PLEX being divided by 500 units. I understand that there will be a new typeID for these smaller units. I am guessing that this is because some attributes of these units will be different (sorry I didn't have time to read in dept on the matter).

However I see this as a 500:1 stock split. In this case, the price SHOULD be adjusted historically to take into account that split.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#35 - 2017-04-27 17:28:04 UTC
Its not gambling if skills are involved.
Just make them push levers fast enough to get those money flowing out in streams from the RNG machines.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2017-04-27 20:59:47 UTC
CCP Quant wrote:
On the regional mining graph, I removed it temporarily because the underlying data doesnt include drone mining, again only the regional breakdown numbers are wrong.


Congrats on coming up with a proper excuse to hide your goon masters mining in Delve.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#37 - 2017-04-28 08:08:20 UTC
@Quant

In an ideal New Eden, the numbers regarding RAW resources like Asteroids, Gas, Ice, and Moon Materials, would be reported a lot more like prospecting in the real world. So the numbers we would get was how much is "spawned" and how much is remaining. Not how much is mined or by who.

Before anyone say: well that is the "same thing just, do the math", the argument is that with such numbers you would get the estimated valuation of regions and not their current productivity and utilisation. Such valuation transperency would be a potential motivation for more dynamic conflict. It would also make it a lot easier for CCP to tweak the knobs regarding distribution, and create scarcety and shortages, that would mean less of the current horrible "self sufficiency" designs.

The spawns would be "new discovered resources"..

Designing in this direction and utilizing the MER as an actual game feature, would create a lot of emergent gameplay.

Something along those lines also ties very well into the potential of using the upcoming ledger feature. Since that is fundamentally a prospecting tool.

NB: As I asked Karkur at fanfest, it would also be a good time to give the scanning modules an overhaul and integrate them into something like a unified scanning UI. So your roid scanner, ship scanner, and cargo scanner, all had their results show in the scanner, in a "ledger like" format. Showing estimates on values, volumes, etc. These scans should/could be directly exportabla and sharable for intel purposes.

Just my personal thoughts on the subject matter.
CCP Quant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#38 - 2017-04-28 22:38:09 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
@Quant

In an ideal New Eden, the numbers regarding RAW resources like Asteroids, Gas, Ice, and Moon Materials, would be reported a lot more like prospecting in the real world. So the numbers we would get was how much is "spawned" and how much is remaining. Not how much is mined or by who.

Before anyone say: well that is the "same thing just, do the math", the argument is that with such numbers you would get the estimated valuation of regions and not their current productivity and utilisation. Such valuation transperency would be a potential motivation for more dynamic conflict. It would also make it a lot easier for CCP to tweak the knobs regarding distribution, and create scarcety and shortages, that would mean less of the current horrible "self sufficiency" designs.

The spawns would be "new discovered resources"..

Designing in this direction and utilizing the MER as an actual game feature, would create a lot of emergent gameplay.

Something along those lines also ties very well into the potential of using the upcoming ledger feature. Since that is fundamentally a prospecting tool.

NB: As I asked Karkur at fanfest, it would also be a good time to give the scanning modules an overhaul and integrate them into something like a unified scanning UI. So your roid scanner, ship scanner, and cargo scanner, all had their results show in the scanner, in a "ledger like" format. Showing estimates on values, volumes, etc. These scans should/could be directly exportabla and sharable for intel purposes.

Just my personal thoughts on the subject matter.


It's an interesting proposal, I'll need to pick CCP Tuxford's brain on spawn mechanics to see if this is possible. That being said, is it really close to reality to report estimated total remaining amounts of raw resources? I've got a feeling the diamond industry (to name one) secretly disagrees Smile I guess we could compare mining output to the theoretical maximum volume that spawns to make an estimated "utilisation ratio" ?
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#39 - 2017-04-28 22:45:42 UTC
CCP Quant wrote:
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
@Quant

In an ideal New Eden, the numbers regarding RAW resources like Asteroids, Gas, Ice, and Moon Materials, would be reported a lot more like prospecting in the real world. So the numbers we would get was how much is "spawned" and how much is remaining. Not how much is mined or by who.

Before anyone say: well that is the "same thing just, do the math", the argument is that with such numbers you would get the estimated valuation of regions and not their current productivity and utilisation. Such valuation transperency would be a potential motivation for more dynamic conflict. It would also make it a lot easier for CCP to tweak the knobs regarding distribution, and create scarcety and shortages, that would mean less of the current horrible "self sufficiency" designs.

The spawns would be "new discovered resources"..

Designing in this direction and utilizing the MER as an actual game feature, would create a lot of emergent gameplay.

Something along those lines also ties very well into the potential of using the upcoming ledger feature. Since that is fundamentally a prospecting tool.

NB: As I asked Karkur at fanfest, it would also be a good time to give the scanning modules an overhaul and integrate them into something like a unified scanning UI. So your roid scanner, ship scanner, and cargo scanner, all had their results show in the scanner, in a "ledger like" format. Showing estimates on values, volumes, etc. These scans should/could be directly exportabla and sharable for intel purposes.

Just my personal thoughts on the subject matter.


It's an interesting proposal, I'll need to pick CCP Tuxford's brain on spawn mechanics to see if this is possible. That being said, is it really close to reality to report estimated total remaining amounts of raw resources? I've got a feeling the diamond industry (to name one) secretly disagrees Smile I guess we could compare mining output to the theoretical maximum volume that spawns to make an estimated "utilisation ratio" ?


LOL that was another of those Wooosh jokes Quant :) I was thinking more Oil and Oil cartels, than DeBeers and grotesque manipulation and monopolistic market control.

but yes I think something resembling reported caches, prospect detection levels, and depletions etc would create some interesting meta content. Which would not feel as "flat" and perfect knowledge/intel like to people.

CCP Quant
C C P
C C P Alliance
#40 - 2017-04-29 00:31:47 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:

LOL that was another of those Wooosh jokes Quant :)


Yeah I'm really trying hard now, never really managed to top my proudest oneSmile
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