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Grant increased sec status for capturing/defending fw sites

Author
DrButterfly PHD
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#1 - 2017-04-26 07:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: DrButterfly PHD
Last night in fleet the FC expressed sadness that he could never visit Pator due to CONCORD shooting him on site if he enters hi sec. A campion of the Minmatar fleet who has fought for his faction for 3 years is treated like a criminal in his own faction's space. I realize that my own sec status has dropped from 5 to 4 in less than 2 weeks since joining faction warfare and soon I too will be banished from hi sec.

From a lore perspective it seems wrong that war heroes should not be allowed in their own faction's space by CONCORD. It also seems unfair that other PVE activities like ratting provide a boost to sec status while faction warfare does not.

I see a few possible ways to fix this, with a preference for option 1. Only one option is needed; I'm not proposing all three.

1. Grant increased sec status for capturing/defending fw sites. This will allow faction warfare players to keep their sec status above 0 by playing faction warfare and prevents pirates from joining a faction just to gain sec status protection offered by one of the otehr proposals below.

2. Allow FW players with low sec status to enter their own nations systems without CONCORD attacking. This seems pretty open to abuse by pirates, although hi-seccers could defend themselves by joining the opposing faction, allowing them to shoot abusing players on sight.

3. FW players don't lose sec status when in a faction warzone system. Again, seems open to abuse by people joining a faction just to commit low sec piracy. I strongly dislike this option.

4. No sec loss in low sec. You'd still get flashy and shot by gate guns etc. but wouldn't loose sec loss. This would also help other non-pirate factions living in low sec. It would be a pretty significant change, but really, does sec loss in low sec dissuade criminality in low sec? All the consequences of sec status happen in hi sec, so why have low sec actions affect it? Sec status is kinda broken in low sec anyway - it doesn't tell you if a person is a criminal, just how much they rat.

5. Similar to #1: Allow FW players to buy sec status with LP.

EDIT: adding a couple more suggestions from the thread:

6. CONCORD attack you based on a combination of sec status and faction standing, allowing FW players to balance out low sec status with faction standing.

7. Make anybody that is not an official Militia member go suspect the moment they attempt using the acceleration gate (Max Deveron). This could also be applied to warping to the sites as sometimes fights happen on the outside of gates due to ship size restrictions. Militia need to be able to clear these acceleration gate camps.

Thoughts? Any better ideas to solve this issue?
DrButterfly PHD
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#2 - 2017-04-26 07:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: DrButterfly PHD
[EDIT: moved to initial post]
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#3 - 2017-04-26 07:37:50 UTC
Here is a simpler idea........

Think of Concord as like the Geneva Convention.......
And quit shooting non-wardecc'd targets unless they have fired first.

I mean seriously you engage in what would be considered a criminal act in highsec, and you expect to not be treated in the same manner? You are still in Empire space for FFS.
DrButterfly PHD
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#4 - 2017-04-26 08:13:26 UTC
Quote:
quit shooting non-wardecc'd targets unless they have fired first.

That's just not realistic. A pirate fleet warps into your site and you're supposed to politely wait for them to get into position before you engage? Who does that? Nobody - which is why any player that's been doing faction warfare for any length of time ends up with low sec status.

I guess that opens up another suggestion: no sec loss for FW players at FW sites (both inside and within 1000km of warp gates). That protects any players not wanting to be involved in faction warfare, and it's not unreasonable for FW players to assume ships warping to those sites are looking for a fight.

Quote:
Concord as like the Geneva Convention

That's unrealistic from a lore perspective - why would the various factions sign up for an arrangement and prevents pilots from effectively defending their space against pirates?

Quote:
I mean seriously you engage in what would be considered a criminal act in highsec, and you expect to not be treated in the same manner? You are still in Empire space for FFS.


This isn't high sec; it's a warzone. FFS.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#5 - 2017-04-26 09:27:50 UTC
DrButterfly PHD wrote:

That's just not realistic. A pirate fleet warps into your site and you're supposed to politely wait for them to get into position before you engage? Who does that? Nobody - which is why any player that's been doing faction warfare for any length of time ends up with low sec status.

Actually it is very realistic, it is called Rules of Engagement. Wardeccing a Pirate group would be sufficient for ROE. As would maybe making anybody that is not an official Militia member go suspect the moment they attempt using the acceleration gate, not just entering the site.

DrButterfly PHD wrote:

That's unrealistic from a lore perspective - why would the various factions sign up for an arrangement and prevents pilots from effectively defending their space against pirates?

Are these pirates -5 sec status? are they suspect? are they criminal in any way to allow for indiscriminate shooting?
Also i think you better look back on the lore for those agreements as well, it had nothing to do with any Pirates (which are Guristas, Angels, etc for that matter) It had to do with some extreme Politics and the nature of Capsuleers at the time.

DrButterfly PHD wrote:
This isn't high sec; it's a warzone. FFS.


It is Empire Space, which begs the question.....if you are involved in Faction Warfare, and consider yourself a hero why are you limited to just Low Security territory? Does not the citizens of High Security Space deserve your adoring attentions as well seeing as how 90% of all your equipment comes from there?
(Being Empire space, that means the Laws of Empire still apply even to Low Security Space War Zones and the Regulation of Concord.)
DrButterfly PHD
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#6 - 2017-04-26 11:06:46 UTC
Quote:
As would maybe making anybody that is not an official Militia member go suspect the moment they attempt using the acceleration gate, not just entering the site.


Yep, that would also solve the problem. Good suggestion!

War deccing is going in the right direction, because it mirrors setting people to negative status in 00. The only problem is the cost involved if there's a lot of parties, which there are. Not sure what my alliance would say to that.

Quote:
Are these pirates -5 sec status? are they suspect? are they criminal in any way to allow for indiscriminate shooting?

Sometimes not. But if a 20 man gang warps to the FW site then that's pretty suspicious. In real life, if an armed gang drove up to a group of soilders actively deployed against an enemy in the middle of a warzone, ignoring any warnings and instructions, you can imagine the response even if those involved weren't enemy soilders or known criminals. Number 1 on the ROE images shown here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_engagement) includes the right to defend yourself against the threat of attack.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2017-04-26 12:34:43 UTC
DrButterfly PHD wrote:
Number 1 on the ROE images shown here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_engagement) includes the right to defend yourself against the threat of attack.


The rules of engagement for US forces in Somalia are not indicative of the rules of engagement or your corp in FW space. Your ROE are the one controlled by crimewatch which mean no, you are not supposed to shoot first unless the target is a recognized criminal.
Cade Windstalker
#8 - 2017-04-26 13:57:12 UTC

  1. Sec Status is independent of faction standings and is handed out by CONCORD. CONCORD doesn't care about Factional Warfare and there's no reason they would award sec status for actions taken there. Sec Status is lost by shooting other players under criminal conditions and gained by removing pirates or through tags.

  2. Again, Sec Status != Faction Standings. CONCORD doesn't care whose space you're entering if your sec status is low.

  3. This is just flat out never going to happen.

  4. This removes a key part of Low Sec that differentiates it from Null. You're still under the auspices of CONCORD and the Factions in Low Sec, they just don't have the manpower to police these areas.

  5. You can already buy it with tags, I see no reason to fix the value of one to the other.

  6. Just no. These are two completely unrelated metrics, and it's incredibly easy to have high faction standings but still be -10. This would just invite abuse.

  7. Not a fan of this one either, as you would effectively need to make someone Suspect just for being on a grid and for taking an action that doesn't pertain to CONCORD but to the empires. If you really don't want to lose sec status then wait for the other guy to shoot first.


If your FC wants to visit Pator it's not terribly hard to grind up sec status even from -10. There are plenty of guides on the subject, or he can convert his LP to ISK and his ISK to tags to buy back his sec status.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#9 - 2017-04-26 14:31:01 UTC
DrButterfly PHD wrote:
Last night in fleet the FC expressed sadness that he could never visit Pator due to CONCORD shooting him on site if he enters hi sec. A campion of the Minmatar fleet who has fought for his faction for 3 years is treated like a criminal in his own faction's space. I realize that my own sec status has dropped from 5 to 4 in less than 2 weeks since joining faction warfare and soon I too will be banished from hi sec.

Understand that I may have missed a change in the game with regards to this, if I have then apologies before hand to your FC.
Essentially your FC is an idiot, Concord does not shoot anyone for low sec status in fact Concord is an equal opportunity agency, they will shoot anyone that violates the rules of engagement in high sec no matter what their sec status is.

For those who want the short skip to the end.

On to your idea that FW players should gain sec status because you are "defending" you faction.
My response is no, the empires officially put their warring ways behind them a long time ago after discovering that living with each other in a state of relative peace is far more profitable than fighting a war that can never be won. Perhaps the best way to think of FW is to look at the Japanese army at the end of WW II. Despite the surrender and the call by the leaders of the nation of Japan to lay down arms and stop fighting there were small groups whose hatred for the Allies was so great that they refused to stop fighting choosing instead to fight to their deaths. Yet many survived despite their actions and many of those were considered to be criminals by the Japanese government because of their actions and their refusal to follow orders. In many ways you in FW are just like those Japanese soldiers your hatred is so great that you refuse to stop fighting even though your leaders have declared a truce with the enemy, and like many of those Japanese soldiers your refusal to comply with directives from on high have resulted in you being labeled as criminals (low sec status). You are not hunted because you are not worth the time, or perhaps because those who would have to actually hunt you down are secretly sympathetic to your actions and your beliefs either way you are allowed to continue to exist as long as you stay out of polite society (high sec). However when you choose to enter polite society the leaders are faced with a choice, cater the masses that demand that criminals like you be hunted, arrested and locked up, or allow you to freely move about risking their soft cushy jobs with the large paychecks, power and prestige that come with those jobs. Needless to say the realities of the human condition and the desire for money, power and prestige often win the day and so it is here in EvE.

NO to your idea.
Like it or not your faction signed a peace treaty with your enemy and you are supposed to be living among them in peace not fighting them in some out of the way section of space that is essentially worthless. Because you continue to fight your are considered a criminal by your own faction and because you are a criminal you are not welcome to live in polite society (high sec). Not worth the time and effort to hunt you down, but worth the time and effort to chase you out of polite society or shoot you if possible.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#10 - 2017-04-26 18:42:16 UTC
This issue comes up from time to time.

DrButterfly PHD wrote:
Last night in fleet the FC expressed sadness that he could never visit Pator due to CONCORD shooting him on site if he enters hi sec. A campion of the Minmatar fleet who has fought for his faction for 3 years is treated like a criminal in his own faction's space. I realize that my own sec status has dropped from 5 to 4 in less than 2 weeks since joining faction warfare and soon I too will be banished from hi sec.

CONCORD is an agency that is relatively independent of the 4 empires.
As such, they don't care about "local" faction standing... only the global security status that applies in all areas of space.

In fact... think of CONCORD as "Federal Agents."

A person may not have run afoul of local laws (in fact, he/she may be a hero to the locals), but by attacking people without legal justification (inferring hostile intent is not enough, someone has to be "mechanically" hostile) a person has broken Federal statutes and is thus a wanted person according to Federal Law.


Now this does not means you will be "banished" from high-security space.
The Faction Police may try to shoot you, but only because the laws require they do. And they will only do so in a half-ass manner (see: you can avoid them in a nimble enough ship).

CONCORD will only get involved if you attack someone in high-sec without a legal justification.

DrButterfly PHD wrote:
From a lore perspective it seems wrong that war heroes should not be allowed in their own faction's space by CONCORD. It also seems unfair that other PVE activities like ratting provide a boost to sec status while faction warfare does not.

A few things:

1. Faction Warfare is not a real "war." It is more of a "proxy war" being done between the empires in a manner akin to the Soviet Union and USA during the Cold War.
They may commit troops here and there... but nothing to spark an all-out-engagement.
Instead... they mostly contract others to fight for them. AKA: us.

2. Lore-wise, capsuleers are more akin to the Privateers of old.
We are... in a sense... 3rd party contractors.
Legalized pirates.
We bring in the the equipment.
We fight.
We keep the spoils.
We get some ancillary benefits.
We can pretty much do what we want as long as it does not go against the empire we have a contract with.

You are not a "soldier" in a traditional sense.


3. Why is CONCORD going to award you better security status for killing people who are underlings of the people on their "security council?"
unidenify
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2017-04-27 07:49:51 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
I think simple solution would be add security token/tag to FW LP store, and price them at 15m + 15k LP.

and those tags will only repair up to -1.
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2017-04-27 09:50:33 UTC
If the pirate fleet really wanted to mess with you, they would be in an NPC corp.

A signature :o

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#13 - 2017-04-27 11:34:04 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Here is a simpler idea........

Think of Concord as like the Geneva Convention.......
And quit shooting non-wardecc'd targets unless they have fired first.

I mean seriously you engage in what would be considered a criminal act in highsec, and you expect to not be treated in the same manner? You are still in Empire space for FFS.

Lowsec doesn't work like this.

As a neutral in lowsec, I will gladly go and shoot anyone else there. If they don't shoot me first, I'll shoot them.

So the OP doesn't have much choice but to shoot me, becuase if he doesn't shoot first, he's going to be shot anyway.

There's nothing criminal about it. It isn't highsec and the same mechanics and player attitudes don't exist.

@OP: Tags were added to lowsec for this specific issue (and at some distant point in the future, CCP are planning to adjust the sec status issue as well).
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#14 - 2017-04-27 12:58:43 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
There's nothing criminal about it. It isn't highsec and the same mechanics and player attitudes don't exist.

Shooting someone in low sec still makes you a criminal because low sec is still considered empire controlled space.
Source: EvE Criminal timers.
The only difference between low and high is the game does not spawn an insta death squad in response to your criminal activities.
But the fact that Concord does not respond a death fleet does not mean you are not a criminal.
Standings loss due to shooting someone in low sec is another indicator that you are indeed a criminal.

The only other real difference is that most low sec players wear their low sec status as a badge of honor and could care less if they are not able to go into high sec, they have alts for that if and when needed.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#15 - 2017-04-28 07:47:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Donnachadh wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
There's nothing criminal about it. It isn't highsec and the same mechanics and player attitudes don't exist.

Shooting someone in low sec still makes you a criminal because low sec is still considered empire controlled space.
Source: EvE Criminal timers.

No it doesn't.

If you're going to be a pendant, then at least be correct when doing so.

Aggressing a pod you have no limited engagement with, of a player that isn't an outlaw, gives you a criminal flag.

Shooting someone other then that one specific case, does not make you a criminal in lowsec. It gives you a suspect flag, or only a limited engagement depending on their security status. Nothing at all like highsec.

The mechanics aren't all that hard to understand.

I was talking figuratively. Lowsec is not highsec. Aggression is what people go to lowsec for.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#16 - 2017-04-28 09:17:02 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Here is a simpler idea........

Think of Concord as like the Geneva Convention.......
And quit shooting non-wardecc'd targets unless they have fired first.

I mean seriously you engage in what would be considered a criminal act in highsec, and you expect to not be treated in the same manner? You are still in Empire space for FFS.

Lowsec doesn't work like this.

As a neutral in lowsec, I will gladly go and shoot anyone else there. If they don't shoot me first, I'll shoot them.

So the OP doesn't have much choice but to shoot me, becuase if he doesn't shoot first, he's going to be shot anyway.

There's nothing criminal about it. It isn't highsec and the same mechanics and player attitudes don't exist.

@OP: Tags were added to lowsec for this specific issue (and at some distant point in the future, CCP are planning to adjust the sec status issue as well).



Yeah dude, i get what you are saying....and i was not responding to that type of play or attitude.
I was responding to the fact of a Militia "Soldier" complaining about losing security status.
So I will repeat it in short: In all Wars there is an RoE of some sort, follow them and you will be mostly fine.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#17 - 2017-04-28 09:18:44 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
There's nothing criminal about it. It isn't highsec and the same mechanics and player attitudes don't exist.

Shooting someone in low sec still makes you a criminal because low sec is still considered empire controlled space.
Source: EvE Criminal timers.

No it doesn't.

If you're going to be a pendant, then at least be correct when doing so.

Aggressing a pod you have no limited engagement with, of a player that isn't an outlaw, gives you a criminal flag.

Shooting someone other then that one specific case, does not make you a criminal in lowsec. It gives you a suspect flag, or only a limited engagement depending on their security status. Nothing at all like highsec.

The mechanics aren't all that hard to understand.

I was talking figuratively. Lowsec is not highsec. Aggression is what people go to lowsec for.



do not think we are discussing actual suspect/criminal flags here when some of us say "makes you a criminal"

We are discussing Loss of Sec Status, get with the program dude.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#18 - 2017-04-28 21:30:52 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
There's nothing criminal about it. It isn't highsec and the same mechanics and player attitudes don't exist.

Shooting someone in low sec still makes you a criminal because low sec is still considered empire controlled space.
Source: EvE Criminal timers.

No it doesn't.

If you're going to be a pendant, then at least be correct when doing so.

Aggressing a pod you have no limited engagement with, of a player that isn't an outlaw, gives you a criminal flag.

Shooting someone other then that one specific case, does not make you a criminal in lowsec. It gives you a suspect flag, or only a limited engagement depending on their security status. Nothing at all like highsec.

The mechanics aren't all that hard to understand.

I was talking figuratively. Lowsec is not highsec. Aggression is what people go to lowsec for.



do not think we are discussing actual suspect/criminal flags here when some of us say "makes you a criminal"

We are discussing Loss of Sec Status, get with the program dude.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what Donnachadh was discussing ma'am.

I was perfectly fine with it being more general, but such is life.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#19 - 2017-04-28 21:40:57 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:

Unfortunately, that's exactly what Donnachadh was discussing ma'am.

I was perfectly fine with it being more general, but such is life.


LOL, even as a ma'am you are acknowledging that I am higher ranking in society than you.

So ok , dufus....your first comment he responded to was in quoting me and your comments were directly about the criminal watch system and the Flagging.

However that is not what the discussion was even about, and even he rightly commented the actions are criminal, as in Military Crime's, etc etc, not following the ROE.

So really get a clue, get with the program, or stfu.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#20 - 2017-04-29 01:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Max Deveron wrote:

So really get a clue, get with the program, or stfu.

Oh **** hippy. That sure told me.

Go learn about lowsec and maybe your posts won't be so full of rubbish.