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Strategic cruiser balance pass

Author
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#341 - 2017-04-24 10:39:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I flew the Proteus almost exclusively for years and I don't think Baltec realises just how vulnerable it is with only 3 or 4 mids. Cap injector or web / scram, without the injector your dead against a neut, it can't run for crap, it can be kited really easily or with injector its very difficult to keep in range without the web.

I think baltec1 is speaking from the huge fleet perspective, I was able to force proteus off the grid while in pve Gila (it was four man gang actually).



My good man, the whole scope of T3 rebalancing IS exactly large fleet combat not pve. Bear



Also small scale. A cloaky legion can get 400-500 dps, bonuses webs, nullification and fit a XL booster. Try to get a rapier close to that.



A ship can only fit what pg/cpu allows it to fit. That's their only issue. CCP tried some timid nerfing last year but... without any conviction.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#342 - 2017-04-24 10:40:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
baltec1 wrote:
And the EFT shitfits start.

I wonder how many will notice you called the first one a t1 cruise when it is in fact a pirate cruiser and has hard to source mods fitted. None of the ships you cooked up can do the job of our proteus or legion.

Lol. Shitfits my arse, hard to source mods my arse :). They're more capable than your 160k EHP Proteus brick with the speed of a snail.

Heres another one:

More EHP than a Proteus, more dps than a Proteus, better range than a Proteus, cap stable unlike a Proteus. You're obsessed with how overpowered the Proteus is yet I've posted 5 different hulls that are equal or better than your Proteus. You should give up.

180k ehp, 600 dps at 50k, 1k m/s, cap stable. According to you this is like better than a Battleship since Prot can get 160k ehp and 600 dps and you consider that a battleship :)

[Nighthawk, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
50MN Microwarpdrive II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Medium Energy Nosferatu II
Medium Energy Nosferatu II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Warrior II x5



Gimme Sake wrote:

A ship can only fit what pg/cpu allows it to fit. That's their only issue. CCP tried some timid nerfing last year but... without any conviction.

Not to mention a Rapier is a completely different super specialized ship that's not supposed to be anything like a T3C.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#343 - 2017-04-24 10:44:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme Sake
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
And the EFT shitfits start.

I wonder how many will notice you called the first one a t1 cruise when it is in fact a pirate cruiser and has hard to source mods fitted. None of the ships you cooked up can do the job of our proteus or legion.

Lol. Shitfits my arse, hard to source mods my arse :). They're more capable than your 160k EHP Proteus brick with the speed of a snail.

Heres another one:

More EHP than a Proteus, more dps than a Proteus, better range than a Proteus, cap stable unlike a Proteus. You're obsessed with how overpowered the Proteus is yet I've posted 5 different hulls that are equal or better than your Proteus. You should give up.

[Nighthawk, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
50MN Microwarpdrive II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Medium Energy Nosferatu II
Medium Energy Nosferatu II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Warrior II x5



You're not really going to compare heavy missile range and dps with hybrids are you?

2x pithum c invulns ha ha
that alone is the cost of another t2 fit nighthawk

Now the practical part in pvp, where are the command boosting links at least, if it has no tackling mods?

Try to fit a command bc for pvp and you'll see you don't have enough pg/cpu to make a decent fit that will fill its command ship role and still do good dps. All your lows will be filled with cpu/pg mods.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#344 - 2017-04-24 10:48:54 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
And the EFT shitfits start.

I wonder how many will notice you called the first one a t1 cruise when it is in fact a pirate cruiser and has hard to source mods fitted. None of the ships you cooked up can do the job of our proteus or legion.

Lol. Shitfits my arse, hard to source mods my arse :). They're more capable than your 160k EHP Proteus brick with the speed of a snail.

Heres another one:

More EHP than a Proteus, more dps than a Proteus, better range than a Proteus, cap stable unlike a Proteus. You're obsessed with how overpowered the Proteus is yet I've posted 5 different hulls that are equal or better than your Proteus. You should give up.

[Nighthawk, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
50MN Microwarpdrive II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Medium Energy Nosferatu II
Medium Energy Nosferatu II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Warrior II x5



You're not really going to compare heavy missile range and dps with hybrids are you?

2x pithum c invulns ha ha
that alone is the cost of another t2 fit nighthawk


Well given their example T3C's fit med afterburners I don't think it matters about range. As for the invuls theyre C-Types, who cares, you can be poor and fit Gist and you'll still get 165k EHP.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#345 - 2017-04-24 10:49:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I flew the Proteus almost exclusively for years and I don't think Baltec realises just how vulnerable it is with only 3 or 4 mids. Cap injector or web / scram, without the injector your dead against a neut, it can't run for crap, it can be kited really easily or with injector its very difficult to keep in range without the web.

I think baltec1 is speaking from the huge fleet perspective, I was able to force proteus off the grid while in pve Gila (it was four man gang actually).



My good man, the whole scope of T3 rebalancing IS exactly large fleet combat not pve. Bear



Also small scale. A cloaky legion can get 400-500 dps, bonuses webs, nullification and fit a XL booster. Try to get a rapier close to that.


To my knowledge a legion does not have a bonus to webs in any of the subsystems.

Wormholer for life.

Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#346 - 2017-04-24 10:51:39 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I flew the Proteus almost exclusively for years and I don't think Baltec realises just how vulnerable it is with only 3 or 4 mids. Cap injector or web / scram, without the injector your dead against a neut, it can't run for crap, it can be kited really easily or with injector its very difficult to keep in range without the web.

I think baltec1 is speaking from the huge fleet perspective, I was able to force proteus off the grid while in pve Gila (it was four man gang actually).



My good man, the whole scope of T3 rebalancing IS exactly large fleet combat not pve. Bear



Also small scale. A cloaky legion can get 400-500 dps, bonuses webs, nullification and fit a XL booster. Try to get a rapier close to that.


To my knowledge a legion does not have a bonus to webs in any of the subsystems.



I think he meant Loki.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#347 - 2017-04-24 10:53:20 UTC
I did
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#348 - 2017-04-24 11:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
And the EFT shitfits start.

I wonder how many will notice you called the first one a t1 cruise when it is in fact a pirate cruiser and has hard to source mods fitted. None of the ships you cooked up can do the job of our proteus or legion.

Lol. Shitfits my arse, hard to source mods my arse :). They're more capable than your 160k EHP Proteus brick with the speed of a snail.

Heres another one:

More EHP than a Proteus, more dps than a Proteus, better range than a Proteus, cap stable unlike a Proteus. You're obsessed with how overpowered the Proteus is yet I've posted 5 different hulls that are equal or better than your Proteus. You should give up.

180k ehp, 600 dps at 50k, 1k m/s, cap stable. According to you this is like better than a Battleship since Prot can get 160k ehp and 600 dps and you consider that a battleship :)

[Nighthawk, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
50MN Microwarpdrive II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Medium Energy Nosferatu II
Medium Energy Nosferatu II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Warrior II x5



Gimme Sake wrote:

A ship can only fit what pg/cpu allows it to fit. That's their only issue. CCP tried some timid nerfing last year but... without any conviction.

Not to mention a Rapier is a completely different super specialized ship that's not supposed to be anything like a T3C.


Heavy missiles apply **** all damage and their flight time means whatever you are targeting gets a long time to call for reps. You also have a massively larger sig and are far more vulnerable to bombs. You try this every time and never learn that spitting out EFT theory fits just results in you getting laughed at.

The rapier comment shows you simply do not understand the issue. The rapier is entirely invalidated as a solo/small gang and fleet ship because the loki does its job so much better.
Salvos Rhoska
#349 - 2017-04-24 11:02:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Link the Loki fit please.

Also, Medium ACs application....
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#350 - 2017-04-24 11:10:06 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
[quote=baltec1]And the EFT shitfits start.

I wonder how many will notice you called the first one a t1 cruise when it is in fact a pirate cruiser and has hard to source mods fitted. None of the ships you cooked up can do the job of our proteus or legion.

Lol. Shitfits my arse, hard to source mods my arse :). They're more capable than your 160k EHP Proteus brick with the speed of a snail.

Heres another one:

More EHP than a Proteus, more dps than a Proteus, better range than a Proteus, cap stable unlike a Proteus. You're obsessed with how overpowered the Proteus is yet I've posted 5 different hulls that are equal or better than your Proteus. You should give up.

[Nighthawk, New Setup 1]

snip

You're not really going to compare heavy missile range and dps with hybrids are you?

2x pithum c invulns ha ha
that alone is the cost of another t2 fit nighthawk


Well given their example T3C's fit med afterburners I don't think it matters about range. As for the invuls theyre C-Types, who cares, you can be poor and fit Gist and you'll still get 165k EHP.



My point is you can't compare a pve fit with a pvp fit. Compare a pvp fit Nighthawk with a pvp fit Proteus and then we'll talk.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#351 - 2017-04-24 11:11:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
And the EFT shitfits start.

I wonder how many will notice you called the first one a t1 cruise when it is in fact a pirate cruiser and has hard to source mods fitted. None of the ships you cooked up can do the job of our proteus or legion.

Lol. Shitfits my arse, hard to source mods my arse :). They're more capable than your 160k EHP Proteus brick with the speed of a snail.

Heres another one:

More EHP than a Proteus, more dps than a Proteus, better range than a Proteus, cap stable unlike a Proteus. You're obsessed with how overpowered the Proteus is yet I've posted 5 different hulls that are equal or better than your Proteus. You should give up.

180k ehp, 600 dps at 50k, 1k m/s, cap stable. According to you this is like better than a Battleship since Prot can get 160k ehp and 600 dps and you consider that a battleship :)

[Nighthawk, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
50MN Microwarpdrive II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Medium Energy Nosferatu II
Medium Energy Nosferatu II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Warrior II x5



Gimme Sake wrote:

A ship can only fit what pg/cpu allows it to fit. That's their only issue. CCP tried some timid nerfing last year but... without any conviction.

Not to mention a Rapier is a completely different super specialized ship that's not supposed to be anything like a T3C.


Heavy missiles apply **** all damage and their flight time means whatever you are targeting gets a long time to call for reps. You also have a massively larger sig and are far more vulnerable to bombs. You try this every time and never learn that spitting out EFT theory fits just results in you getting laughed at.

The rapier comment shows you simply do not understand the issue. The rapier is entirely invalidated as a solo/small gang and fleet ship because the loki does its job so much better.

Depends on range, speed, tackle and target. A brick tanked rail prot with an med afterburner is not the king of dictating range. You could just as easily fit rlml or ham. A battleship is just as susceptible to bombs, so what?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#352 - 2017-04-24 11:11:12 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
My good man, the whole scope of T3 rebalancing IS exactly large fleet combat not pve.

I'm no saying we have to balance hull via pve, but my pve fitted gila was able to chase off the field proteus that was in 4-man gang. Propablly fail fit.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#353 - 2017-04-24 11:14:58 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
My good man, the whole scope of T3 rebalancing IS exactly large fleet combat not pve.

I'm no saying we have to balance hull via pve, but my pve fitted gila was able to chase off the field proteus that was in 4-man gang. Propablly fail fit.



Prob fit for something else, smart bombing for example.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#354 - 2017-04-24 11:16:31 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Gimme Sake wrote:
My good man, the whole scope of T3 rebalancing IS exactly large fleet combat not pve.

I'm no saying we have to balance hull via pve, but my pve fitted gila was able to chase off the field proteus that was in 4-man gang. Propablly fail fit.


Incompetent pilots does not mean the ship isn't overpowered.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#355 - 2017-04-24 11:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Infinity wrote:

Depends on range, speed, tackle and target. A brick tanked rail prot with an med afterburner is not the king of dictating range. You could just as easily fit rlml or ham. A battleship is just as susceptible to bombs, so what?


And we see again that you have zero understanding of fleet combat or ships in general.

"Heavy missiles work if the enemy sit still and don't call for reps until damage starts to land!"

"PL HAC fleet relies entirely on the afterburner for their in battle mobility"

"I'm sure glad my tank that requires cap can't get turned off via being void bombed"

"Shield tank battlecruisers have roughly the same sig as armour tanked cruisers"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#356 - 2017-04-24 11:27:52 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Link the Loki fit please.

Also, Medium ACs application....


Don't have it on the phone so I'll have to post it later. I can answer the second part though. Bonused webs.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#357 - 2017-04-24 11:49:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity wrote:

Depends on range, speed, tackle and target. A brick tanked rail prot with an med afterburner is not the king of dictating range. You could just as easily fit rlml or ham. A battleship is just as susceptible to bombs, so what?


And we see again that you have zero understanding of fleet combat or ships in general.

"Heavy missiles work if the enemy sit still and don't call for reps until damage starts to land!"

"PL HAC fleet relies entirely on the afterburner for their in battle mobility"

"I'm sure glad my tank that requires cap can't get turned off via being void bombed"

"Shield tank battlecruisers have roughly the same sig as armour tanked cruisers"

Sounds to me like you're simply making excuses Baltec.

Baltec> T3 are OP because they get 150k EHP and do 600 DPS! Nerf them!!!1
Me> Here are 5 different class non T3C that can get that easily too or even more
Baltec> Goes on a ramble about bombs and PL tactics.

The fact is your reasons for wanting a Nerf for T3 don't add up, almost all the high end cruisers and BC with resist bonuses can match or beat T3Cs. Reason? They can fit battleship sized mods too.

Nerf those oversized fittings or shutup.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#358 - 2017-04-24 12:03:06 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity wrote:

Depends on range, speed, tackle and target. A brick tanked rail prot with an med afterburner is not the king of dictating range. You could just as easily fit rlml or ham. A battleship is just as susceptible to bombs, so what?


And we see again that you have zero understanding of fleet combat or ships in general.

"Heavy missiles work if the enemy sit still and don't call for reps until damage starts to land!"

"PL HAC fleet relies entirely on the afterburner for their in battle mobility"

"I'm sure glad my tank that requires cap can't get turned off via being void bombed"

"Shield tank battlecruisers have roughly the same sig as armour tanked cruisers"

Sounds to me like you're simply making excuses Baltec.

Baltec> T3 are OP because they get 150k EHP and do 600 DPS! Nerf them!!!1
Me> Here are 5 different class non T3C that can get that easily too or even more
Baltec> Goes on a ramble about bombs and PL tactics.

The fact is your reasons for wanting a Nerf for T3 don't add up, almost all the high end cruisers and BC with resist bonuses can match or beat T3Cs. Reason? They can fit battleship sized mods too.

Nerf those oversized fittings or shutup.


If by excuses you mean pointing out colossal flaws in your argument. Every single one of your ideas are terrible and would get wiped out by the very ships you are trying to beat. I mean seriously, rapid lights? Heavy missiles? 425 autos against a fleet with rails and beams? All you are looking at is DPS and tank with no thought about anything else.

Oversized mods are not the reason for T3C being overpowered. It's the 8 bonuses that average out at 10% each, it's the huge power grid that dwarfs every other cruiser and battlecruisers, it's the ease to get T3C to be cap stable, it's the abnormally high base EHP.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#359 - 2017-04-24 12:09:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity wrote:

Depends on range, speed, tackle and target. A brick tanked rail prot with an med afterburner is not the king of dictating range. You could just as easily fit rlml or ham. A battleship is just as susceptible to bombs, so what?


And we see again that you have zero understanding of fleet combat or ships in general.

"Heavy missiles work if the enemy sit still and don't call for reps until damage starts to land!"

"PL HAC fleet relies entirely on the afterburner for their in battle mobility"

"I'm sure glad my tank that requires cap can't get turned off via being void bombed"

"Shield tank battlecruisers have roughly the same sig as armour tanked cruisers"

Sounds to me like you're simply making excuses Baltec.

Baltec> T3 are OP because they get 150k EHP and do 600 DPS! Nerf them!!!1
Me> Here are 5 different class non T3C that can get that easily too or even more
Baltec> Goes on a ramble about bombs and PL tactics.

The fact is your reasons for wanting a Nerf for T3 don't add up, almost all the high end cruisers and BC with resist bonuses can match or beat T3Cs. Reason? They can fit battleship sized mods too.

Nerf those oversized fittings or shutup.


If by excuses you mean pointing out colossal flaws in your argument. Every single one of your ideas are terrible and would get wiped out by the very ships you are trying to beat. I mean seriously, rapid lights? Heavy missiles? 425 autos against a fleet with rails and beams? All you are looking at is DPS and tank with no thought about anything else.

Oversized mods are not the reason for T3C being overpowered. It's the 8 bonuses that average out at 10% each, it's the huge power grid that dwarfs every other cruiser and battlecruisers, it's the ease to get T3C to be cap stable, it's the abnormally high base EHP.

The weapons systems are unimportant since they can easily be switched out. Your argument was the T3s are overpowered because EHP / DPS. I clearly showed the other cruisers and BCs can do likewise. They were all cap stable, none had fitting problems, implants, or fitting only mods or rigs.

You are wrong. Admit and move on.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#360 - 2017-04-24 12:16:35 UTC
Why are you people arguing with Infinity or anyone else about this? CCP is finally going to change these overpowered monstrosities that puts such a damper on everything else, so who cares what the people who have abused them for years have to think?

Just sit back and enjoy their anger and discomfort, it's more enjoyable than wasting time trying to convince the perpetually unconvinced.