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Strategic cruiser balance pass
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Cade Windstalker
#321 - 2017-04-23 21:42:01 UTC
Coralas wrote:
You introduced a word I didn't type and then hung your argument on it, there isn't any amount of hairsplitting that is going to salvage that.


Um, what? You literally wrote "using my multipurpose exploration ship" like four pages ago???

Coralas wrote:
They introduced the whole probing system everywhere at the same time, and they didn't make wormhole space self sufficient (no pos fuel), ie they plainly expected the T3s to be traded to k-space for k-space use. As I recall they didn't even expect people to live in wormholes as much as they did and do. They always knew they were producing a powerful ship, its right there in the names T3, strategic.

Yet I have both ishtar and proteus, and both have guns, and I don't need all the grid on the proteus, that grid is there to run the fits I'm not using, you know, the ones I've advocating people focus on nerfing.


CCP have flatly said they can't possibly check the impact of every ship in the game when they're released, and they're always re-evaluating whether the current state of the game is good or not. T3Cs are OP, this has been known for a long time, if CCP decide that the site running aspects should be preserved they'll change the sites, if not then they won't. Claiming that CCP specifically intended the current state of site running and T3Cs is a bit ridiculous, considering CCP have talked about what they intended for T3Cs and very little of it matches up with how they're currently used.

If you're not using the extra fitting space on the Proteus but somehow have room for a full set of full sized guns on the Isthar then I'm really not sure if your Isthar fit is bad or your Proteus fit. In either case as I've said before CCP should not balance things for whatever arbitrary things individuals decide to do with a ship.

CCP have to balance for how the ships are actually being used. They can't just go around and get all the players to pinky-promise not to abuse what they're given.

As has been said repeatedly, the tank and the DPS is what makes the T3Cs OP. If your fit relies on the high DPS and tank of the ship there is no good way to nerf these other fits and preserve yours.

Coralas wrote:
I've explained exactly what i'd prefer. I'd prefer the overpowered fit to be nerfed. That is not difficult to understand. In the case of the tengu, that may be the 850 dps pve fit, in the case of the proteus that may be buffer fits. Even as it stands, I'm still shipping my ishtar to my current ratting location because its faster at anomolies.


That is incredibly vague and not an argument. There is no single fit that's OP for the T3Cs, there are a very very small number of fits that maybe aren't entirely OP but those are the exception not the rule. This persistent belief of yours that there are only a few problem fits does not align with reality.

Coralas wrote:
Except that isn't how the T3Ds work. They are vastly more powerful than the t1 variants. The only thing that the T1 can compete on is raw dps, and only in suicide mode - as soon as you put a damage control on a hecate, it still matches the cat for damage, and as soon as you put a damage control on a cat, the hecate is just more of everything and with a neut AND its uncatchable in lowsec. Ring any bells ?

I'm sure that if I make a suicide mode vexor i'd get the exact same relationship right now with the drone proteus.


Again, the comparison here is not between raw T1 and T3. T3s are supposed to be better than raw T1, it's in the charge. Was it really that hard to read or something?

T1 is base, Navy is above that, T3 is roughly equal with Navy but less specialized than Navy or T2, T2 is above that but more specialized, and then Pirate is above everything but on the same axis as T1.

Coralas wrote:
Aye, in the 1 in 30 case or whatever that any site decides to roll 30 second aggro. All the advantages remain, like better dps in the midfield than rails, ammo conservation, you know all the things you skipped over in your reply.

Several structures and tanks in exploration require ~600 dps to break. its make or break number. Not only that, 600 dps is on the edge of making some encounters interminably long as it is (and I bet a great number of tengu pilots will complain bitterly if their pve ship is nerfed to 600 dps, let alone below), and the 250mm railgun vigilant with a proper tank fitted, has a lot more dps than that, ie it is not pirate ship performance.

nerf the fits that are broken.


Okay, then I'm really failing to understand why you were talking earlier about how using a drone boat is a disadvantage to you. Maybe you were unclear.

It seems rather unlikely that the Proteus will deal less than 600 DPS post-changes, considering the VNI deals 675 with Ogre 2s and only two T2 DDAs.

Again, as has been explained like a dozen times in this thread, the fits that are broken *dramatically* outnumber the fits that aren't. There are not individual broken fits, there are broken ships. Four of them to be specific, and they're getting nerfed.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#322 - 2017-04-23 23:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Shallanna Yassavi
Question:

If T3C get nerfed to between navy and HAC, will they get let into more exploration sites outside of WH space, like 4/10, or (edit: cruiser) burner missions?

A signature :o
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2017-04-24 02:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Coralas
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Coralas wrote:
You introduced a word I didn't type and then hung your argument on it, there isn't any amount of hairsplitting that is going to salvage that.


Um, what? You literally wrote "using my multipurpose exploration ship" like four pages ago???



I did, and you rewrote multipurpose as dedicated.

Quote:


CCP have flatly said they can't possibly check the impact of every ship in the game when they're released, and they're always re-evaluating whether the current state of the game is good or not. T3Cs are OP, this has been known for a long time, if CCP decide that the site running aspects should be preserved they'll change the sites, if not then they won't. Claiming that CCP specifically intended the current state of site running and T3Cs is a bit ridiculous, considering CCP have talked about what they intended for T3Cs and very little of it matches up with how they're currently used.

If you're not using the extra fitting space on the Proteus but somehow have room for a full set of full sized guns on the Isthar then I'm really not sure if your Isthar fit is bad or your Proteus fit. In either case as I've said before CCP should not balance things for whatever arbitrary things individuals decide to do with a ship.



Well this is the point where they do need to consider what ships can or can't do what content, ie design their game.

I'd be perfectly ok if they designed the game so that 10/10s can't be done with T3s, but I'd hate them to just flop out a random nerf purely to satisfy OCD about ship classes that meant that 1 T3 could do 10/10s and the rest couldn't.

Another solution i'd be happy about would be that racial 10/10s work with the racial cruiser or larger ships, but serpentis/gurista resist profile similarity makes that non trivial, likewise I'd be happy if they moved the maze and any other easy 10/10s to 9/10 (which don't exist), changed the loot table to a-type from x-type and added new 10/10s to hand out x-types that were appropriately difficult for the source of what is basically super/titan loot.

That would also help drain out the way overfarmed pith x-type loot table loot excess from the market.

Quote:



CCP have to balance for how the ships are actually being used. They can't just go around and get all the players to pinky-promise not to abuse what they're given.

As has been said repeatedly, the tank and the DPS is what makes the T3Cs OP. If your fit relies on the high DPS and tank of the ship there is no good way to nerf these other fits and preserve yours.



You keep saying tank, without acknowledging the two types of tank. I think a pair of 1600mm plates is overpowered for a cruiser. But active pve fits don't use plates. ie this is very much related to the class of buffer fits and casual perusal of proteus losses show that active rep fits die all the time since its likely a solo fitting and solo in this game is an inevitable lossmail.

Quote:


That is incredibly vague and not an argument. There is no single fit that's OP for the T3Cs, there are a very very small number of fits that maybe aren't entirely OP but those are the exception not the rule. This persistent belief of yours that there are only a few problem fits does not align with reality.

Again, the comparison here is not between raw T1 and T3. T3s are supposed to be better than raw T1, it's in the charge. Was it really that hard to read or something?



This is where everyones lack of specificity on what constitutes overpowered does in fact matter. All you are doing is repeating an overpowered mantra without explaining what it is.

Example of overpowered - cruiser with active rep bonus running 2 reps, all other grid consuming things like mwd, battery full gunrack with no grid rig. Solution tighten the grid until a rig is needed and thus the rep bonuses from rigs or extended cap life is dropped.

Example of overpowered - cruiser with cap injector, mwd, full gun rack and 2x 1600mm plates with 3 trimarks and thus no grid rig. Solution : tighten grid till the rig is needed and the EHP drops by a trimark.

ie I fundamentally reject the notion you can claim overpoweredness without specifying what it is.

Also the t3 destroyers are fundamental evidence that CCP and boxes on a very vague graph are not very accurate, since they wrote the box graph picture and then stomped all over that with the t3ds, and they've still only internally balanced the class, ie if they were to release pirate or navy destroyers they'd have to nerf t3ds first.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#324 - 2017-04-24 03:28:32 UTC
T3's are not overpowered apart from the ability to fit battleship sized modules but that applies to all cruisers. Even with that odd ability the Tengu is the only one that gets a crazy tank but then you can similiarly fit an Onyx, Eagle and they also get crazy tank. I've tanked 20 man fleets in an Onyx and Eagle.

Baltec is yet to show evidence of a T3 that is overpowered. He will generally say oh Proteus gets 150k ehp therefore its overpowered and like a battleship but he fails to acknowledge such a Proteus is about as useful as floating asteroid when it comes to fighting, tackling or keeping its cap up.

Smoke and Mirrors as usual.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Cade Windstalker
#325 - 2017-04-24 04:12:35 UTC
Coralas wrote:
I did, and you rewrote multipurpose as dedicated.


Yes, because that was me re-stating your words how I interpreted them, and I just explained why I interpreted them as I did...

Coralas wrote:
Well this is the point where they do need to consider what ships can or can't do what content, ie design their game.

I'd be perfectly ok if they designed the game so that 10/10s can't be done with T3s, but I'd hate them to just flop out a random nerf purely to satisfy OCD about ship classes that meant that 1 T3 could do 10/10s and the rest couldn't.

Another solution i'd be happy about would be that racial 10/10s work with the racial cruiser or larger ships, but serpentis/gurista resist profile similarity makes that non trivial, likewise I'd be happy if they moved the maze and any other easy 10/10s to 9/10 (which don't exist), changed the loot table to a-type from x-type and added new 10/10s to hand out x-types that were appropriately difficult for the source of what is basically super/titan loot.

That would also help drain out the way overfarmed pith x-type loot table loot excess from the market.


I'm really not sure if you're fine with 1 out of 4 T3Cs being able to do sites or not, but I can tell you right now CCP don't care particularly whether they can all do them or not. CCP make content and ships and then see what they players do with them, and then evaluate based on what they want the risk and reward curves to look like (at least for PvE) and other factors. If only one T3C can do the content then they'll probably be fine with that, as long as they're fine with the time and risk associated with that.

That's not the problem with the X-type loot tables, and it's highly unlikely CCP are going to spend dev time right now making more PvE sites when they're working on stuff that they hope will become the new top-tier of Null PvE.

Coralas wrote:
You keep saying tank, without acknowledging the two types of tank. I think a pair of 1600mm plates is overpowered for a cruiser. But active pve fits don't use plates. ie this is very much related to the class of buffer fits and casual perusal of proteus losses show that active rep fits die all the time since its likely a solo fitting and solo in this game is an inevitable lossmail.


That's because both types of tank on T3Cs are OP? T3Cs can buffer tank better than any other Cruiser and almost any BC, and they can active tank better than any sub-cap in the game. When you factor speed based mitigation into things I've seen a Tengu fit that can tank 6,000 DPS.

There's no need to distinguish between types of tank because the T3Cs tank better in every way than any other comparable hull.

Coralas wrote:
This is where everyones lack of specificity on what constitutes overpowered does in fact matter. All you are doing is repeating an overpowered mantra without explaining what it is.

Example of overpowered - cruiser with active rep bonus running 2 reps, all other grid consuming things like mwd, battery full gunrack with no grid rig. Solution tighten the grid until a rig is needed and thus the rep bonuses from rigs or extended cap life is dropped.

Example of overpowered - cruiser with cap injector, mwd, full gun rack and 2x 1600mm plates with 3 trimarks and thus no grid rig. Solution : tighten grid till the rig is needed and the EHP drops by a trimark.

ie I fundamentally reject the notion you can claim overpoweredness without specifying what it is.

Also the t3 destroyers are fundamental evidence that CCP and boxes on a very vague graph are not very accurate, since they wrote the box graph picture and then stomped all over that with the t3ds, and they've still only internally balanced the class, ie if they were to release pirate or navy destroyers they'd have to nerf t3ds first.


That's kinda because it's assumed that anyone participating in the discussion has bothered to educate themselves to a minimum level on the topic of T3Cs and their general uses, maybe a few popular fits, ect.

In general terms then the problem with T3Cs is that they tank far far better than any comparably sized or priced hull, and that's just on base stats. When you throw their ability to speed tank on top of that they can mitigate absolutely absurd amounts of damage whether they're active tanked or buffer fit.

That is why specific fits like X plates and Y guns and no PG rig aren't useful to this discussion, the problem is an extremely general one not a case of "oh this specific fit".

As to the Pirate and Navy destroyers thing, I don't think that's accurate. The T3Ds are performing a little above AFs and Navy Frigates in most cases, which puts them about where a Navy Destroyer would likely land. The problem is this puts them in a position where they eclipse most of the ships they're actually competing with.

On top of that the T3Ds have been nerfed, repeatedly, and there's little evidence CCP are entirely happy with them right now. We'll just have to wait and see whether they go for another pass on them or tweak some of the frigates instead.
Cade Windstalker
#326 - 2017-04-24 04:25:02 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
T3's are not overpowered apart from the ability to fit battleship sized modules but that applies to all cruisers. Even with that odd ability the Tengu is the only one that gets a crazy tank but then you can similiarly fit an Onyx, Eagle and they also get crazy tank. I've tanked 20 man fleets in an Onyx and Eagle.

Baltec is yet to show evidence of a T3 that is overpowered. He will generally say oh Proteus gets 150k ehp therefore its overpowered and like a battleship but he fails to acknowledge such a Proteus is about as useful as floating asteroid when it comes to fighting, tackling or keeping its cap up.

Smoke and Mirrors as usual.


CCP have repeatedly stated that ships are meant to be able to fit different sizes of modules and they're not meant to be hard size restricted. That Cruisers can fit Large modules is not a balance problem, it just tweaks some people's OCD and they claim that it's a balance problem because they don't like it.

Also no, a 150k EHP fleet Proteus will probably only burn cap firing its guns and running a prop mod, will likely be outside neut range of most ships, has better cap stability than most comparable ships, and will deal as much DPS as a HAC with one third the tank.

Case and point, Proteus and Legion fit pulled from a recent PL/CVA fight:

Quote:
[Proteus, Proteus - DNA Imported]

Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Corpus X-Type Armor EM Hardener
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates

Small Capacitor Booster II
Warp Disruptor II
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Offensive - Dissonic Encoding Platform


Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x228


Quote:
[Legion, Legion - DNA Imported]

Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
'Bailey' 1600mm Steel Plates
Corpum A-Type Energized EM Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Thermal Membrane

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
J5 Enduring Warp Disruptor
Warp Scrambler II
Small Capacitor Booster II

Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier


Imperial Navy Multifrequency M x6


The Proteus there has 163k EHP before boosts and does 550 DPS with the ammo fitted. The Legion has 137k EHP and does 500 DPS. Cap lasts just under 8 minutes on the Legion and 9 Minutes on the Proteus before cap boosters are applied (the fits had 400s in the cargo). The Proteus does 510m/s and the Legion 612. The Proteus is 642m estimated fit cost, the Legion is 577m.

So yeah, pretty sure baltec1 knows what he's talking about here.

CCP have already flat out said they believe T3Cs are OP. If you want to try to somehow convince them otherwise you're going to need more than vague insinuations about why they're not and insults against the point pointing out that they are.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#327 - 2017-04-24 07:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Cade Windstalker wrote:


CCP have repeatedly stated that ships are meant to be able to fit different sizes of modules and they're not meant to be hard size restricted. That Cruisers can fit Large modules is not a balance problem, it just tweaks some people's OCD and they claim that it's a balance problem because they don't like it.

Also no, a 150k EHP fleet Proteus will probably only burn cap firing its guns and running a prop mod, will likely be outside neut range of most ships, has better cap stability than most comparable ships, and will deal as much DPS as a HAC with one third the tank.

Case and point, Proteus and Legion fit pulled from a recent PL/CVA fight:

Quote:
[Proteus, Proteus - DNA Imported]

Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Corpus X-Type Armor EM Hardener
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates

Small Capacitor Booster II
Warp Disruptor II
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Offensive - Dissonic Encoding Platform


Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x228


Quote:
[Legion, Legion - DNA Imported]

Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
'Bailey' 1600mm Steel Plates
Corpum A-Type Energized EM Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Thermal Membrane

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
J5 Enduring Warp Disruptor
Warp Scrambler II
Small Capacitor Booster II

Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier


Imperial Navy Multifrequency M x6


The Proteus there has 163k EHP before boosts and does 550 DPS with the ammo fitted. The Legion has 137k EHP and does 500 DPS. Cap lasts just under 8 minutes on the Legion and 9 Minutes on the Proteus before cap boosters are applied (the fits had 400s in the cargo). The Proteus does 510m/s and the Legion 612. The Proteus is 642m estimated fit cost, the Legion is 577m.

So yeah, pretty sure baltec1 knows what he's talking about here.

CCP have already flat out said they believe T3Cs are OP. If you want to try to somehow convince them otherwise you're going to need more than vague insinuations about why they're not and insults against the point pointing out that they are.



OK then we look at a certain faction BS which is used by certain people for fleet fights, 266,244 EHP and 1110 DPS, that is what the BS class should be at so that carriers don't become the new BS, the BS need love, it is not so much that the T3C's are over powered but that BS are under tanked in the main with the exception of the one I just detailed. FC's prefer to use the mobility of the T3C's which is a simple enough thing to understand with command destroyers able to jump ships way to be killed piece meal.

So just doing a simplistic this is the ship it is over powered because of raw stats, means what?

The thing is that certain alliances are investing heavily in Carriers as their new doctrine and they would like to have T3C's to have a weaker tank so they can kill them easier with their swarms of fighters.

Anyway, yes, as always baltec1 is pushing what favours him and his alliances setup, who would have thought that...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#328 - 2017-04-24 07:19:15 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
OK then we look at a certain faction BS which is used by certain people for fleet fights, 266,244 EHP and 1110 DPS, ...

Nerf that too.

T3Cs are the most OP class of ships in the game. Nerfing them will make a lot of other options more viable than the uber tanked T3C fleets we currently see.

The soon the T3C fleets go the way of the Dodo, the better.

It would be great if CCP could find a way to nerf them in a fleet capacity, while still maintaining their strengths for solo play, but I just don't know how that is possible without totally new mechanics/restrictions being introduced just for them, which wouldn't be ideal.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Salvos Rhoska
#329 - 2017-04-24 07:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Dracvlad wrote:
The thing is that certain alliances are investing heavily in Carriers as their new doctrine and they would like to have T3C's to have a weaker tank so they can kill them easier with their swarms of fighters.

Anyway, yes, as always baltec1 is pushing what favours him and his alliances setup, who would have thought that...


Actually he said this:
baltec1 wrote:
7. Let me be clear in this. After this change we will have absolutely no use for these ships in our fleets. We will go back to using the T2 specialists. We gain nothing from this change a lose a lot of ships from our current fleets.


Not even baltec1s alliance will have use for T3Cs after the nerf he proposes.

So not only will T3Cs be undesirable for pvp fleets, they will commensurately, if nerfed as he proposes, also be largely useless for running anything except a HS 5/10 escalation.

Prepare your butts for massive player rage, T3C/material market collapse, and extractors skyrocketing as those that choose to stay drop their T3C skills as useless.

All this so NS fleets can STOP fielding T3Cs.
"Nerf this so we can stop using it, and the rest of you be damned"

Funny how that goes, isnt it.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#330 - 2017-04-24 07:32:27 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

[Proteus, Proteus - DNA Imported]

Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Corpus X-Type Armor EM Hardener
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates

Small Capacitor Booster II
Warp Disruptor II
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Offensive - Dissonic Encoding Platform


Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x228


Quote:
[Legion, Legion - DNA Imported]

Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
'Bailey' 1600mm Steel Plates
Corpum A-Type Energized EM Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Thermal Membrane

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
J5 Enduring Warp Disruptor
Warp Scrambler II
Small Capacitor Booster II

Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier


Imperial Navy Multifrequency M x6

The Proteus there has 163k EHP before boosts and does 550 DPS with the ammo fitted. The Legion has 137k EHP and does 500 DPS. Cap lasts just under 8 minutes on the Legion and 9 Minutes on the Proteus before cap boosters are applied (the fits had 400s in the cargo). The Proteus does 510m/s and the Legion 612. The Proteus is 642m estimated fit cost, the Legion is 577m.

So yeah, pretty sure baltec1 knows what he's talking about here.

CCP have already flat out said they believe T3Cs are OP. If you want to try to somehow convince them otherwise you're going to need more than vague insinuations about why they're not and insults against the point pointing out that they are.



T1 Faction Cruiser - 140k ehp (more than Legion), 400 dps (bit less than Legion), 666m/s (Faster than Legion), Stable 87% (Better than Legion) - can hit anything from interceptor to titan (Better than Legion)

[Gila, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
10MN Afterburner II

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Medium Knave Scoped Energy Nosferatu

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Hobgoblin II x4



T2 Heavy Assault Cruiser - 155k EHP (Much more than Legion, Slightly Less than Proteus), 450 DPS (50 Less than Legion) but can hit everything from interceptor to Titan (Better than Prot and Legion), Cap Stable 87%, 487 (Less than Prot and Legion).

[Sacrilege, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Syndicate 1600mm Steel Plates
Syndicate 1600mm Steel Plates
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

Small Cap Battery II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Light Missile
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Hammerhead II x5


CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#331 - 2017-04-24 07:34:27 UTC
T2 Interdiction Cruiser - 166k EHP (more than Prot and way more than Legion), 457 dps (Not much less than Legion, a bit less than Prot), Cap Stable 60% with MWD and Med Nos running (wat better than Prot and Legion), 1600m/s (hugely faster than Prot and Legion).


[Broadsword, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Ghoul Compact Energy Nosferatu

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II


T2 Heavy Assault Cruiser - 146 EHP (better than Legion, less than Prot), 400dps (less than both Prot and Legion), Cap Stable (better than Prot and Legion), 637 m/s (Faster than Prot and Legion)


[Eagle, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter C






CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#332 - 2017-04-24 07:36:47 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
OK then we look at a certain faction BS which is used by certain people for fleet fights, 266,244 EHP and 1110 DPS, ...

Nerf that too.

T3Cs are the most OP class of ships in the game. Nerfing them will make a lot of other options more viable than the uber tanked T3C fleets we currently see.

The soon the T3C fleets go the way of the Dodo, the better.

It would be great if CCP could find a way to nerf them in a fleet capacity, while still maintaining their strengths for solo play, but I just don't know how that is possible without totally new mechanics/restrictions being introduced just for them, which wouldn't be ideal.

Mechanic already kind of exists on other hulls: they can be made to receive less remote assistance (fleet boosts and logi). The only thing wrong with *just* doing that is they can still facetank a polarized nightmare.

A signature :o
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#333 - 2017-04-24 07:50:10 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Mechanic already kind of exists on other hulls: they can be made to receive less remote assistance (fleet boosts and logi). The only thing wrong with *just* doing that is they can still facetank a polarized nightmare.

Yeah I'd thought about that already. It kind of works, but not completely.

The other thing would be to make them like the T3D, with mode switch, so they can facetank a nightmare, but have crap DPS, or have good DPS and a glass tank, or speed with neither good DPS or tank.

That would reward the players that can use them well, and require everyone in fleet to be good with their use (which won't happen), so that would be a sort of nerf to fleets while still maintaining versatility for solo play.

When CCP introduced the T3D, they used the mode switching mechanic as a test for future T3C balancing, so who knows, maybe CCP will go that way. Just not sure how that will work, while still maintaining subsystems.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#334 - 2017-04-24 08:07:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The thing is that certain alliances are investing heavily in Carriers as their new doctrine and they would like to have T3C's to have a weaker tank so they can kill them easier with their swarms of fighters.

Anyway, yes, as always baltec1 is pushing what favours him and his alliances setup, who would have thought that...


Actually he said this:
baltec1 wrote:
7. Let me be clear in this. After this change we will have absolutely no use for these ships in our fleets. We will go back to using the T2 specialists. We gain nothing from this change a lose a lot of ships from our current fleets.


Not even baltec1s alliance will have use for T3Cs after the nerf he proposes.

So not only will T3Cs be undesirable for pvp fleets, they will commensurately, if nerfed as he proposes, also be largely useless for running anything except a HS 5/10 escalation.

Prepare your butts for massive player rage, T3C/material market collapse, and extractors skyrocketing as those that choose to stay drop their T3C skills as useless.

All this so NS fleets can STOP fielding T3Cs.
"Nerf this so we can stop using it, and the rest of you be damned"

Funny how that goes, isnt it.


It is to his alliances benefit simple as that, they use carrier blobs and they want to escalate, they have an issue with fleets able to move out of bubbles and have a heavy tank and cannot be pinned, it is simple, he is pushing for something that will enable his alliance to win fights easier, which is about par for the course with baltec1.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#335 - 2017-04-24 08:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Coralas
Infinity Ziona wrote:
T3's are not overpowered apart from the ability to fit battleship sized modules but that applies to all cruisers. Even with that odd ability the Tengu is the only one that gets a crazy tank but then you can similiarly fit an Onyx, Eagle and they also get crazy tank. I've tanked 20 man fleets in an Onyx and Eagle.

Baltec is yet to show evidence of a T3 that is overpowered. He will generally say oh Proteus gets 150k ehp therefore its overpowered and like a battleship but he fails to acknowledge such a Proteus is about as useful as floating asteroid when it comes to fighting, tackling or keeping its cap up.

Smoke and Mirrors as usual.


afaik deimos is 1700msec / 55k ehp / 500 dps from guns, it can't fit full 250mm gun rack, 1600mm plate, mwd, 2x trimarks. I presume the extra mid will mean that it is out tracking the proteus or out damaging it at longer ranges. Drone damage is also larger, but med drones in hacs, think that could be some wasted attribute really.

Active tanked, both it and the proteus have t2 resists and a rep amount bonus. ie buffer on the active proteus is not that important, and I only run 1 rep for pve. The adaptive augmenter has a second tanking bonus but thats at the cost of a slot, so I don't use it.

If they were to change the actual tank bonus to be 7.5% instead of 10% so it was like the deimos, I wouldn't care, and likewise my fit has less than 1200 grid, so if the selection of subs I'm using was brought down from 1350 or so that it is now down to 1200 I probably wouldn't care either.

ie I can't see that the active tank is really _that_ much out of scale compared to the deimos.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#336 - 2017-04-24 08:57:03 UTC
Coralas wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
T3's are not overpowered apart from the ability to fit battleship sized modules but that applies to all cruisers. Even with that odd ability the Tengu is the only one that gets a crazy tank but then you can similiarly fit an Onyx, Eagle and they also get crazy tank. I've tanked 20 man fleets in an Onyx and Eagle.

Baltec is yet to show evidence of a T3 that is overpowered. He will generally say oh Proteus gets 150k ehp therefore its overpowered and like a battleship but he fails to acknowledge such a Proteus is about as useful as floating asteroid when it comes to fighting, tackling or keeping its cap up.

Smoke and Mirrors as usual.


afaik deimos is 1700msec / 55k ehp / 500 dps from guns, it can't fit full 250mm gun rack, 1600mm plate, mwd, 2x trimarks. I presume the extra mid will mean that it is out tracking the proteus or out damaging it at longer ranges. Drone damage is also larger, but med drones in hacs, think that could be some wasted attribute really.

Active tanked, both it and the proteus have t2 resists and a rep amount bonus. ie buffer on the active proteus is not that important, and I only run 1 rep for pve. The adaptive augmenter has a second tanking bonus but thats at the cost of a slot, so I don't use it.

If they were to change the actual tank bonus to be 7.5% instead of 10% so it was like the deimos, I wouldn't care, and likewise my fit has less than 1200 grid, so if the selection of subs I'm using was brought down from 1350 or so that it is now down to 1200 I probably wouldn't care either.

ie I can't see that the active tank is really _that_ much out of scale compared to the deimos.

Yeah, when the T3's came out I don't think you could get that sort of EHP on the other ships but now you can do it quite easily. Never used active tanking so not sure what its like. Always buffer armored and active shield tanked mostly.

I flew the Proteus almost exclusively for years and I don't think Baltec realises just how vulnerable it is with only 3 or 4 mids. Cap injector or web / scram, without the injector your dead against a neut, it can't run for crap, it can be kited really easily or with injector its very difficult to keep in range without the web.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#337 - 2017-04-24 10:15:30 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I flew the Proteus almost exclusively for years and I don't think Baltec realises just how vulnerable it is with only 3 or 4 mids. Cap injector or web / scram, without the injector your dead against a neut, it can't run for crap, it can be kited really easily or with injector its very difficult to keep in range without the web.

I think baltec1 is speaking from the huge fleet perspective, I was able to force proteus off the grid while in pve Gila (it was four man gang actually).

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#338 - 2017-04-24 10:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
And the EFT shitfits start.

I wonder how many will notice you called the first one a t1 cruise when it is in fact a pirate cruiser and has hard to source mods fitted. None of the ships you cooked up can do the job of our proteus or legion.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#339 - 2017-04-24 10:25:17 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I flew the Proteus almost exclusively for years and I don't think Baltec realises just how vulnerable it is with only 3 or 4 mids. Cap injector or web / scram, without the injector your dead against a neut, it can't run for crap, it can be kited really easily or with injector its very difficult to keep in range without the web.

I think baltec1 is speaking from the huge fleet perspective, I was able to force proteus off the grid while in pve Gila (it was four man gang actually).



My good man, the whole scope of T3 rebalancing IS exactly large fleet combat not pve. Bear

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#340 - 2017-04-24 10:34:03 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Gimme Sake wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I flew the Proteus almost exclusively for years and I don't think Baltec realises just how vulnerable it is with only 3 or 4 mids. Cap injector or web / scram, without the injector your dead against a neut, it can't run for crap, it can be kited really easily or with injector its very difficult to keep in range without the web.

I think baltec1 is speaking from the huge fleet perspective, I was able to force proteus off the grid while in pve Gila (it was four man gang actually).



My good man, the whole scope of T3 rebalancing IS exactly large fleet combat not pve. Bear



Also small scale. A cloaky loki can get 400-500 dps, bonuses webs, nullification and fit a XL booster. Try to get a rapier close to that.