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Strategic cruiser balance pass

Author
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#221 - 2017-04-22 10:16:29 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
remove ability to fit nullification and cov ops at the same time, remove SP loss on death.


How convenient for PvP players, at the expense of PvE players.

Are the occassional T3C interlopers running content in your space really such an inconvenience for you that you want to kill off nomadic deepspace runners entirely?

So the ability to interdict or engage a fleet of T3Cs before they get to destroying your PVEers is a convenience for PVPers?

I guess if you can only look at one side of an issue it would be. T3Cs are a tool for everyone. Nerfs or buffs would affect everyone too.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Salvos Rhoska
#222 - 2017-04-22 10:22:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
remove ability to fit nullification and cov ops at the same time, remove SP loss on death.


How convenient for PvP players, at the expense of PvE players.

Are the occassional T3C interlopers running content in your space really such an inconvenience for you that you want to kill off nomadic deepspace runners entirely?

So the ability to interdict or engage a fleet of T3Cs before they get to destroying your PVEers is a convenience for PVPers?

I guess if you can only look at one side of an issue it would be. T3Cs are a tool for everyone. Nerfs or buffs would affect everyone too.


Nomadic deepspace runners dont have fleets, nor do they benefit from the protection of locals.

There is no need to remove SP loss, nor cloak/null which are core mechanics of T3Cs.

You can engage the T3Cs once they refit to run content.

If someone wants to run T3C fleets, go ahead.
Removing SP loss just reduces risk and makes such fleets even more likely.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#223 - 2017-04-22 10:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Gimme Sake
This thread has turned into "ccplease dun nurf my pve pwnmobile" and Baltec's Megathron vs everyone solo forum peeveepee.

Meanwhile, on Reddit....

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

Salvos Rhoska
#224 - 2017-04-22 10:29:12 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
This thread has turned into "ccplease dun nurf my pve pwnmobile" and Baltec's Megathron vs everyone solo forum peeveepee.

Meanwhile, on Reddit....

Yup, looks like a Reddit post to me.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#225 - 2017-04-22 10:32:01 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
remove ability to fit nullification and cov ops at the same time, remove SP loss on death.


How convenient for PvP players, at the expense of PvE players.

Are the occassional T3C interlopers running content in your space really such an inconvenience for you that you want to kill off nomadic deepspace runners entirely?

So the ability to interdict or engage a fleet of T3Cs before they get to destroying your PVEers is a convenience for PVPers?

I guess if you can only look at one side of an issue it would be. T3Cs are a tool for everyone. Nerfs or buffs would affect everyone too.


Nomadic deepspace runners dont have fleets, nor do they benefit from the protection of locals.

There is no need to remove SP loss, nor cloak/null which are core mechanics of T3Cs.

You can engage the T3Cs once they refit to run content.

If someone wants to run T3C fleets, go ahead.
Removing SP loss just reduces risk and makes such fleets even more likely.


What risk? On average you have one big battle a week which is more than enough time to get that skill back. Any cov ops ship can be nomadic, what you want is the ability to bypass defences with no effort on your part while being able to do high end content at the same time. This all boils down to you not wanting to give up you low risk, overpowered money maker.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#226 - 2017-04-22 10:58:16 UTC
As I see it, SP loss was there to prevent only t3 usage. It has become obsolete and pointless.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#227 - 2017-04-22 11:08:34 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
As I see it, SP loss was there to prevent only t3 usage. It has become obsolete and pointless.

Exactly, we have SP injectors now. If they will be nerfed to the level of other cruisers the argument of being OP will be invalid.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#228 - 2017-04-22 11:32:26 UTC
Gimme Sake wrote:
As I see it, SP loss was there to prevent only t3 usage. It has become obsolete and pointless.

Not that pointless. When the skill injectors dropped, T3C got their gold duct tape.

A signature :o

Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#229 - 2017-04-22 12:09:57 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

oh you took BS to lowsec, wormholes. Sweet. Try that with M-OEE8 gates. We have T3Cs because taking something bigger into null is suicide most of the time.


Oh I agree. Most of the time, anything I take even into lowsec (even a noobship) is sheer suicide. Most of the time there's a gate camp, a bubble camp, whatever. I've lost so much just going into lowsec, much less nullsec, that I couldn't possibly even count it all. But guess what? I was under the impression that nobody cared.

I can hear it now - "HTFU," "wow your tears taste great man," "so much salt," etc. If I don't like gate camps, "take it out" people would no doubt say. And if I lacked the firepower? They'd tell me to hire someone to take it out for me. And if I lacked the ISK to do that? They'd tell me to go off and drill 'roids for a month to earn the ISK. Or they'd tell me to find some friends to help me do it.

But one thing I could never imagine is people telling me I'm entitled to have some super ship that could cruise right on through gate camps like nobody's business, then run a bunch of sites that would normally take high-end battleships to run, and then do anything else I could imagine to my heart's content.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#230 - 2017-04-22 12:23:08 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

oh you took BS to lowsec, wormholes. Sweet. Try that with M-OEE8 gates. We have T3Cs because taking something bigger into null is suicide most of the time.


Oh I agree. Most of the time, anything I take even into lowsec (even a noobship) is sheer suicide. Most of the time there's a gate camp, a bubble camp, whatever. I've lost so much just going into lowsec, much less nullsec, that I couldn't possibly even count it all. But guess what? I was under the impression that nobody cared.

I can hear it now - "HTFU," "wow your tears taste great man," "so much salt," etc. If I don't like gate camps, "take it out" people would no doubt say. And if I lacked the firepower? They'd tell me to hire someone to take it out for me. And if I lacked the ISK to do that? They'd tell me to go off and drill 'roids for a month to earn the ISK. Or they'd tell me to find some friends to help me do it.

But one thing I could never imagine is people telling me I'm entitled to have some super ship that could cruise right on through gate camps like nobody's business, then run a bunch of sites that would normally take high-end battleships to run, and then do anything else I could imagine to my heart's content.



It is high end content for people who have taken the time to train those ships and who have the attitude to do the nomad life, also as other people have pointed out kill it when it is refit and running the sites. Oh gate camps are easy... and require no hunting skills, seriously mate, this game is supposed to be hard...

Gate camps used to be all over the place, but reduced in number due to interceptors being nullified, and that is a good thing for this game.

CCP needs to look at the hit points of the BS class if they want to see them used in PvP fleet warfare, it is in my opinion the missing part of their fleet combat changes and is the reason why so many people run around in T3C's in doctrine fleets. But of course lets just destroy a unique and interesting ship type that enables a different style of play due to the fleet doctrines, makes sense to people like baltec1 and others, but not to people who do or have done the nomadic life in Eve.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#231 - 2017-04-22 13:45:32 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
remove ability to fit nullification and cov ops at the same time, remove SP loss on death.


How convenient for PvP players, at the expense of PvE players.

Are the occassional T3C interlopers running content in your space really such an inconvenience for you that you want to kill off nomadic deepspace runners entirely?

So the ability to interdict or engage a fleet of T3Cs before they get to destroying your PVEers is a convenience for PVPers?

I guess if you can only look at one side of an issue it would be. T3Cs are a tool for everyone. Nerfs or buffs would affect everyone too.


Nomadic deepspace runners dont have fleets, nor do they benefit from the protection of locals.

There is no need to remove SP loss, nor cloak/null which are core mechanics of T3Cs.

You can engage the T3Cs once they refit to run content.

If someone wants to run T3C fleets, go ahead.
Removing SP loss just reduces risk and makes such fleets even more likely.

I don't know what dumb **** you are babbling on about this time. Nowhere did I mention removing skillpoint loss, etc.

Just that the narrow focus of 'this hurts PVEers' and benefits PVPers is stupid. It affects all people, including those that would use T3Cs in fleets. That's the main motivation for the rebalance - the perception that T3Cs are too good for PVP.

As usual though, reality flies over your head.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#232 - 2017-04-22 15:44:17 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:



seriously mate, this game is supposed to be hard...


Yet here you are supporting a system that allows you to pass by the defenses of anyone simply by clicking warp to next gate.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#233 - 2017-04-22 18:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:



seriously mate, this game is supposed to be hard...


Yet here you are supporting a system that allows you to pass by the defenses of anyone simply by clicking warp to next gate.


You should have to hunt them when they run stuff rather than easy certain death gate camps in choke points, is hunting too hard for you? I guess it is...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#234 - 2017-04-22 23:27:44 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
You should have to hunt them when they run stuff rather than easy certain death gate camps in choke points, is hunting too hard for you? I guess it is...

Why should any pilot only be vulnerable when running sites, and if and only if they don't pay attention to local and d-scan?

It's not that I'm unsympathetic to your point, Drac. I feel that both sides have legitimate cause for grievance here. But in most other cases, CCP has very deliberately kept cloaking ability and nullification separate. And that seems like good game balance. The only time they intersect other than T3C, that I can recall, is a one-time issued yacht.

Think about it - every time people ask for both advantages on one hull (namely things like Blockade Runners), the idea get swiftly smacked down as being overpowered. And that's just moving a small amount of freight around. Being able to freely move combat capable vessels seems way over the line, comparatively speaking. The only ship that can imitate (but not replicate) this level of movement safety is the interceptor - and only because it can get align times down to a point where the lack of cloak doesn't matter. But they were already nerfed in that such a fitting severely gimps their combat potential, and alone they don't have that much to start with. Plus you can still smartbomb them.

Nomadic life will adjust, I have no doubt. They will either make more use of other tools at their disposal to avoid gatecamps like most others have to, or they will use the cloak and play the tense game of trying to evade the ships at the gatecamp. I feel this game is way too complex, and the options available are way too vast, to have such a lifestyle completely and utterly contingent upon this specific set of ships having these very specific set of otherwise game-breaking abilities. The rest of EvE shouldn't have to suffer for nomads to be able to keep their toys. Needs of the many, and all that.
Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#235 - 2017-04-23 02:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Beast of Revelations
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Yet here you are supporting a system that allows you to pass by the defenses of anyone simply by clicking warp to next gate.


You should have to hunt them when they run stuff rather than easy certain death gate camps in choke points, is hunting too hard for you? I guess it is...


I don't know why people who have declared that they "live the nomadic lifestyle" should have special protections and special toys that allow them to avoid what the rest of us have to deal with on a daily basis. I don't know what makes you and others think "nomads" are privileged.

Why shouldn't your "hunting" argument work for everyone else? "You should have to hunt freighters, not easy certain death at gate camps" etc.

Look, I despise gate camps as much if not more than anyone else. I find them extremely lazy, uncreative, obnoxious, asinine, annoying, etc. But I have to deal with them, and so does everyone else. Why shouldn't you?
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2017-04-23 03:07:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:



seriously mate, this game is supposed to be hard...


Yet here you are supporting a system that allows you to pass by the defenses of anyone simply by clicking warp to next gate.


You can put an armed dock on your camp. Its not like the whole camp concept hasn't been so stoutly upgraded that it doesn't need a counter for individuals, especially when passing through the camp typically has to be done twice and when the changes to the sov system has repopulated each null system with someone on your intel channel (including putting in carrots like sanctum/haven in bad truesec systems), so that even if your camp system is inconveniently large and you can't figure which gate I left by, the guy in the next system over will tell them.

Lastly, we are only of 2 types, the ones looking for sigs, and the ones running an escalation, and the ones looking for sigs will eventually warp to a location that you can have scanned down in advance, and since most sov null systems have a person in it these days, the expectation these days is higher that explorers will run a signature with someone in local.

If you can't keep coverage up, then well you are probably holding more space than you need and should expect people to get away with taking your precious signatures.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#237 - 2017-04-23 03:43:25 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:



seriously mate, this game is supposed to be hard...


Yet here you are supporting a system that allows you to pass by the defenses of anyone simply by clicking warp to next gate.


You should have to hunt them when they run stuff rather than easy certain death gate camps in choke points, is hunting too hard for you? I guess it is...


No its very easy

Because we use the T3C to get past any defenses the enemy has with zero effort on our part.
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2017-04-23 04:22:33 UTC
If you're going out to null to just explore, there's already the wormhole express.

Escalation chasing is another story. That one says "go to X system within 24 hours." I've never chased a null escalation because the only realistic way to pass those null gatecamps with enough firepower to run the escalation is usually... cloaky nullified T3C, or maybe dotlan to find a wormhole within 10 jumps of the target system and hope you don't hit one on the way there.
Or take an interceptor out and try to sell the escalation to someone just passing through. The last time I tried to sell an escalation, the locals thought I was trying to set them up to get hotdropped. Hmm...

A signature :o

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#239 - 2017-04-23 05:02:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Merin Ryskin
baltec1 wrote:
What risk? On average you have one big battle a week which is more than enough time to get that skill back.


Sorry, but this is nonsense. You might have time to replace the SP loss between battles, but it means you're spending your time keeping your ability to fly a T3 ship instead of training new skills. Over time the player who doesn't touch a T3 ship will have a significant SP advantage. And god help you if you decide to fly a T3 for more than the occasional once-per-week major fleet battle.

Quote:
Any cov ops ship can be nomadic, what you want is the ability to bypass defences with no effort on your part while being able to do high end content at the same time. This all boils down to you not wanting to give up you low risk, overpowered money maker.


Of the covops ships available only the Stratios has the ability to be nomadic in any meaningful way, none of the others have the ability to even attempt anything like endgame content. It still has zero chance of doing the true high-end stuff, especially if you want to finish it in anything close to a reasonable amount of time. And its ability to be nomadic is severely hindered by how easy it is to instantly lose one with little or no chance of survival if you happen to jump into a bubble camp.

The simple fact here is that T3s, using cloak + nullifier for travel, are the only viable option for high-end PvE content if you aren't a member of an alliance that owns space to PvE in. The only option that even comes close to being an alternative is a black ops with a cheap covops frigate alt, and paying a billion ISK per month for an alt means having to invest a lot of effort carebearing just to break even over staying docked for a month.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#240 - 2017-04-23 05:03:11 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
If you're going out to null to just explore, there's already the wormhole express.

Escalation chasing is another story. That one says "go to X system within 24 hours." I've never chased a null escalation because the only realistic way to pass those null gatecamps with enough firepower to run the escalation is usually... cloaky nullified T3C, or maybe dotlan to find a wormhole within 10 jumps of the target system and hope you don't hit one on the way there.
Or take an interceptor out and try to sell the escalation to someone just passing through. The last time I tried to sell an escalation, the locals thought I was trying to set them up to get hotdropped. Hmm...


Its a false argument anyway, escalations are generally run by the people that own the space, the very same people who generally have the gatecamps and bubbled gates too.