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The CSM – Council of Sov. Management.

First post
Author
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2017-04-21 17:08:07 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:

Still comes down to playstyles that innately revolve around organizing mass numbers disenfranchising playstyles that do not. It's not really a question of non-voters vs voters, many people do vote for the candidates they think will best represent them, but due to the size of those niches, or the lack of centralization in those niches, the candidates have less chance of actually getting elected, as the vote for that niche ends up spread. Considering the CFC (Imperium) is more than twice the size by player number of the next biggest null bloc, it should come as no surprise they can stack the panel, versus what is probably a very flat distribution of lots of mom and pop, smaller corps which may vote for their 'local' candidate, thus ensuring their defeat.


hi

i'm going to suggest that when trying to whine about losing a csm election, you figure out how the voting process works. in fact, ccp explained it fairly simply, and the fact that you didn't understand it and also didn't research it does not speak highly of your abilities were you to make it onto the csm

it was very obvious you had no clue how it worked given your graphs on the first page, but let's educate you and potentially the readers of this thread

single transferable vote, STV, specifically solves these organizational problems with more diffuse representation. unlike first past the post, you do not vote for a single candidate, you vote for a ranked list of candidates.

let us say you are Johnny WantstobeaBot. you just love highsec missioning. there are 8 different highsec candidates competing for your vote. but you don't know how popular any are! who do you vote for! you don't want to waste your vote!

you vote for all of them. Your ballot, 1-8, has each of these bot-aspirant wannabe csmers, in the order you personally prefer them. now, it turns out that 1-6 are utterly unlikable, even for highseccers. is your vote wasted? no! as each of them is eliminated from the pool, your vote transfers according to your list. once unlikable highseccer #1 is eliminated, your vote transfers to unlikable highseccer #2. and through this process, those highsec votes all finally consolidate on one guy that they all like enough to get elected.

now, if there are lots of highsec votes, the excess are not wasted either! imagine a world where there are many Johnny WantstobeaBots. they all love unlikable highseccer #1. there are twice as many Johnny Wantstobeabots as needed to elect unlikable highseccer #1. what happens? why, half those votes them fall down to unlikable highseccer #2, and he too gets elected.

that is why the highly organized Goonswarm Federation, The Only People Who Bother To Look At How This Works, Apparently, all vote aryth #1, yet Innominate, who got fewer #1 votes than many illiterate vanity candidates, easily claimed a seat as well: our excess #1 votes flow down to Innominate.

and this is why we know there are not a lot of Johnny Wantstobeabots flying around: because if they were, even though they all hate each other and don't work together, the magic of STV would do their organizing for them and get them representatives anyway

i hope this has been edifying and that next time you try to run in an election you will take the thirty seconds to look up how the election even works
Goonswarm Federation
#142 - 2017-04-21 17:09:04 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
What does it say about the voting system when the top player representative calls most of the voters 'pubbies' and terrible ones at that?


Have you considered that the people he's calling "terrible pubbies" are not the majority? That they are, in fact, the minority? The vote totals and consistent domination of the CSM by our candidates points to a world where we are the majority, not you and yours.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Goonswarm Federation
#143 - 2017-04-21 17:13:07 UTC
Buoytender Bob wrote:
I wouldn't care who ran and won if they had the best interests of EVE and the community as a whole as their main focus. Throw in genial participation with the other Council members and a good work ethic and I could accept just about anyone in the role, no matter how different their EVE life is from mine. What I find disheartening is that we re-elect someone with a 15% attendance for meetings, people with open hostility and disdain for other types of gameplay/areas, and a general attitude that as long as my group of people in my alliance get what they want, everything is fair and balanced. Yes, we do have some good people on the new CSM, but we could have elected a better representing CSM.


If you'd listened to any CSM member, past or present, including ones that are diametrically opposed to the existence of Goonswarm Federation, you'd know that the regular meetings are fairly unimportant. I'd find some new pearls to clutch.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Goonswarm Federation
#144 - 2017-04-21 17:13:42 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
When I was in charge I took the opposite approach. The event is going to be Wednesday at 7pm, and I don't care who is there. You have 3 days to get your **** together and free your schedule for it, and you choose your level of involvement.

We were able to plan more events, and had stronger member showings at each event because only the people that wanted to be there would show up. No more dragging horses to water, just to watch them not drink.


Taking this comparison back to eve in my view; your system would in fact be more like regular player surveys of the entire playerbase, where each player can choose the level of representation he gets, in the responses to the questions. Instead of the once a year scheduled CSM elections which involve research outside of simply playing the game.

no actually, that is exactly the opposite of what he said

you can choose to be part of the csm election or not, but stop whining if you choose not
#145 - 2017-04-21 17:27:15 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Aryth probably got the highest number of votes. What does it say about the voting system when the top player representative calls most of the voters 'pubbies' and terrible ones at that? Clearly Aryth can afford to be completely realistic and cynical and the same time. I mean that's some bravado, but at the same time that should hint at how broken the system really is.

it says that the system works, because it allows groups to elect representatives without needing broad approval, so similarly highsec pubbies can elect someone without needing to kiss the ring of the mighty goonswarm empire. you've just proven the complete opposite of the point you claim to be making. you did, of course, prove what your actual complaint is: you are very mad that better-respected people got elected and you didn't

also are you ever going to explain what you think your idiot graph in the first post means


Why do people play in HiSec? LowSec? NPC Null?

There are many reasons why. For some, a large alliance, for which Sov-null is tailored to support, is not where they find the most fun and enjoyment in the game. They would rather play in a smaller, more personal setting that has smaller social structures. There are many flavors of this, across the spectrum of security status. The mistake you are making is that you are treating HiSec like one huge monolithic entity, which is a silly assumption, whereas, considering the scope and size of the Imperium, it is not as much of a stretch to say sov-null is largely defined by the Imperium. Sov-Null builds large monolithic blocs, other areas, not so much. It's not high vs null here, it's about the size of the social structures they produce, and only the largest social structures tend to win voices. This is counter to the stated aims of the CSM - to voice for the community, not a subset of a few communities.

Retar Aveymone wrote:

i hope this has been edifying and that next time you try to run in an election you will take the thirty seconds to look up how the election even works


I understand how it works. If you really want to dissect the votes even more, funny things happen as you can reconstruct parts of the goon ballot based on how votes trickle down after the top candidate has taken a seat. The visuals and the Gini index both are there simply to show how strongly certain blocs can vote, and how uneven the votes are. I am fully aware of how the system works, but initial vote does act as an indicator of bloc clout. Sov-null clearly can polarize around one chosen candidate easier than other areas.

The stated goal of the CSM is to voice for the community. When the community at large is composed of many smaller groups, and a few very large groups, the current system does a very good job of depriving all the smaller groups of a voice, thus failing to accomplish the original goals - voice the community. I am not faulting the SVT system for being SVT, that's fine, I am saying SVT may not be the best choice here, as clearly the end result of each election is very skewed representation.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Goonswarm Federation
#146 - 2017-04-21 17:37:34 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
When the community at large is composed of many smaller groups

Have you considered that this isn't true?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Goonswarm Federation
#147 - 2017-04-21 17:47:37 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:

The stated goal of the CSM is to voice for the community. When the community at large is composed of many smaller groups, and a few very large groups, the current system does a very good job of depriving all the smaller groups of a voice, thus failing to accomplish the original goals - voice the community. I am not faulting the SVT system for being SVT, that's fine, I am saying SVT may not be the best choice here, as clearly the end result of each election is very skewed representation.

it's STV, not SVT

and this is, at its core, the WAHH I DIDNT GET ELECTED THIS MEANS THE VOTING SYSTEM IS BAD

the waterfall of the votes are there for the past two elections. if your point had any validity, you'd be making it by reference to those waterfalls. it doesn't. its a dumb point you came up with because you don't understand the voting system and wanted to blame someone else for losing.

the voting system doesn't skew representation. the representation reflects the electorate. you just don't want to believe that.
#148 - 2017-04-21 17:48:40 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:

The CSM process offers the strongest incentive to have all alts self-identify what playstyle they most favor. It is blatantly obvious in a game such as EVE that the location of the character is significantly less predictive. Certainly there are ways that the census properties of the CSM could be improved - but it is far and away better than any other metric. It is widely advertised and CCP seeks to get as many people as possible to participate. It has a tangible incentive not to lie: your responses are private and anonymized but have actual effects. And it goes to the person behind the character, so it avoids the trap mechanical measurements of where characters are, what their skills are, and what their frequent activities are where they miss the underlying reality.


Except, CCP already has numbers on how many alts people have and the majority of players only have one character.

On top of that the "survey" of the CSM uses a self selected sample of the playerbase, and we have no data on how many people don't respond. We can look at past player numbers though and conclude that the total response rate is somewhere under 10% of all accounts.

On top of that the CSM isn't actually asking any questions about where you live, it's asking who you vote for. Maybe for you the two are synonymous, but not for everyone, and assuming that they are for the majority is a completely unfounded and spurious assumption to make.

And um, yeah there very much is a Silent Majority in this or any other game. It's just not as homogeneous as most people think it is, because no majority of players in this game do the same things.

There are lots of people in HIgh Sec, but they're all doing different things so none of them represents a majority. There are a lot of people in Null but not enough for a majority, there's a small but very active group in W-Space, and something similar in Low Sec. All of these groups have sub-groups and sub-sub-groups.

Of these we have plenty of evidence that the vast majority of players, let alone accounts, rarely if ever touch the forums or care much about the wider game outside of their little niche. These sorts of players are very unlikely to vote in the CSM, so any extrapolation is going to completely miss those players.

I don't have any significantly better stats on player distribution, though there are some conclusions we can draw from player populations and the little bits of data on alts released by CCP, but trying to do this from the CSM data is ridiculous. You'd get a better estimate throwing darts at a board and at least then you'd *know* you're probably wrong.
#149 - 2017-04-21 18:04:04 UTC
Querns wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
When the community at large is composed of many smaller groups

Have you considered that this isn't true?


So, at least from the initial votes, there's a fairly huge tail of candidates that all get some votes, and a small group which gets a significantly larger share. The spread of the initial votes shows that these smaller communities exist, and that they do have representatives, and that together they represent a good deal of the community, simply that they aren't unified enough to vote as one homogeneous entity, because they aren't - that's not the EvE they play. Does that mean they aren't part of the community?

Certainly when 'pubbies' aren't thought of part of the community, well, that pretty much speaks for itself.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Goonswarm Federation
#150 - 2017-04-21 18:09:07 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Querns wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
When the community at large is composed of many smaller groups

Have you considered that this isn't true?


So, at least from the initial votes, there's a fairly huge tail of candidates that all get some votes, and a small group which gets a significantly larger share. The spread of the initial votes shows that these smaller communities exist, and that they do have representatives, and that together they represent a good deal of the community, simply that they aren't unified enough to vote as one homogeneous entity, because they aren't - that's not the EvE they play. Does that mean they aren't part of the community?

Certainly when 'pubbies' aren't thought of part of the community, well, that pretty much speaks for itself.


the spread of initial votes is fairly meaningless, man who has no idea how the system he is complaining about works
Goonswarm Federation
#151 - 2017-04-21 18:17:25 UTC
Came to watch some pubbie getting rekt. Was not disappointed.

You are indeed terrible.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Pandemic Horde
#152 - 2017-04-21 18:44:54 UTC
What is with this condescending behavior calling people illiterate? What's with people in this game using their intellect as a weapon, jabbing it like a knife in someone's back to berate them? Are we below you? Seriously some of you act incredibly childish for such an intelligent person I don't get it. If the point is to have an open conversation, then why are many doing their best to pretty much tell others to be quiet.

It's sad to see adults arguing back and forth like children.
Goonswarm Federation
#153 - 2017-04-21 18:56:27 UTC
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:
What is with this condescending behavior calling people illiterate? What's with people in this game using their intellect as a weapon, jabbing it like a knife in someone's back to berate them? Are we below you? Seriously some of you act incredibly childish for such an intelligent person I don't get it. If the point is to have an open conversation, then why are many doing their best to pretty much tell others to be quiet.

It's sad to see adults arguing back and forth like children.


Eve's primary redeeming feature is hatred as a gameplay mechanic.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Pandemic Horde
#154 - 2017-04-21 19:07:30 UTC
Querns wrote:
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:
What is with this condescending behavior calling people illiterate? What's with people in this game using their intellect as a weapon, jabbing it like a knife in someone's back to berate them? Are we below you? Seriously some of you act incredibly childish for such an intelligent person I don't get it. If the point is to have an open conversation, then why are many doing their best to pretty much tell others to be quiet.

It's sad to see adults arguing back and forth like children.


Eve's primary redeeming feature is hatred as a gameplay mechanic.


Maybe it's just me, but that seems to speak volumes about the discussion here.
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2017-04-21 19:17:28 UTC
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:
Querns wrote:
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:
What is with this condescending behavior calling people illiterate? What's with people in this game using their intellect as a weapon, jabbing it like a knife in someone's back to berate them? Are we below you? Seriously some of you act incredibly childish for such an intelligent person I don't get it. If the point is to have an open conversation, then why are many doing their best to pretty much tell others to be quiet.

It's sad to see adults arguing back and forth like children.


Eve's primary redeeming feature is hatred as a gameplay mechanic.


Maybe it's just me, but that seems to speak volumes about the discussion here.


If you're only now coming around to the primary defining feature of our organization, then you must be quite new to the game.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Pandemic Horde
#156 - 2017-04-21 19:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Chewytowel Haklar
So you hate everyone else in the game, or the way they play it, and want to ruin their game (obviously DJ's slogan), and yet are still hilariously debated with and even elected into CSM. I have to hand it to you guys your devious nature has superceded others common sense or rational behavior in decision making. To argue with any of you is rather pointless then. You are what you are and that will never change, good to know.
Goonswarm Federation
#157 - 2017-04-21 19:25:27 UTC
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:
So you hate everyone else in the game, or the way they play it, and want to ruin their game (obviously DJ's slogan), and yet are still hilariously debated with and even elected into CSM. I have to hand it to you guys you're devious nature has superceded others common sense or rational behavior. To argue with any of you is rather pointless then. You are what you are and that will never change, good to know.


Arguing was never necessary. We were objectively correct from the beginning.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

#158 - 2017-04-21 19:28:59 UTC
why goons are busy writing stupid things on the forum instead of ratting in delve?
:thinking: Question
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2017-04-21 19:31:25 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:
why goons are busy writing stupid things on the forum instead of ratting in delve?
:thinking: Question


Ratting is for plebians. The patrician krab activity ("krabtivity"?) is rorqual mining. This allows plenty of free time to fulfill the goon prime directive to Never Not Post.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

#160 - 2017-04-21 19:35:08 UTC
oh i see! Roll

until PL Dread bomb 200 rorquals at a time, AMIRITE?
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