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Quafe Convoy Destroyed By Caldari Forces On Caldari-Gallente Border

Author
#401 - 2017-04-21 01:14:42 UTC
Arrendis wrote:


The only testimony we have to say that they were breaking up... was the guys who shot them. And Pilot Alpha doesn't tell us about any attempt at contacting the freighter crews to see if they have the time to render humanitarian assistance to unarmed ships. We're told this was done because of the imminent danger the debris posed to a station with functioning shielding. This station, which would completely ignore capital-class artillery fire, is somehow damaged by debris. Seriously?


In case you have forgotten, we Caldari had a very serious problem with Gallente ships on a collision course towards a station. We lost a steemed CEO and many good lives that could be prevented if the Navy was ready to act like they did in this case.

This event actually pushed foward the Factional Warfare currently fighting for the low-sec zones.

I´m not saying they did right or wrong, but as the news reported, it was a first hearing.

Wait for the trial and proper evidence to be reviewd by all parts before jumping to conclusion. It would be quite unusual for the navy to waste seven minutes of ammo for nothing.

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#402 - 2017-04-21 01:55:23 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
A huge amount of evidence which there has been no attempt to conceal.
So you know, that no information has been concealed? That no attempt was made to do so, even considering the time between event and admission? Now I am trying to keep my suspicions of the States motivations in check. But that is a strong statement, Pieter. Are you that sure?

I will admit that I find myself hoping that you are correct, eager to hear that there was some mitigating factor or credible cause. Because if there wasn’t and this is, what it looks like, then all my supposed biases… well. Let’s see how ‘they’ proceed.
Arataka Research Consortium
#403 - 2017-04-21 02:55:53 UTC
I'm not saying that there has been nothing concealed, James. I'm saying that none of the evidence that Arrendis mentioned was concealed - or that a spirited attempt seemed to have been made to so conceal it.

I'm also not leaping around and pointing fingers - I honestly can't work out any motive for scuttling seven freighters full of empty soft drink bottles...

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Goonswarm Federation
#404 - 2017-04-21 03:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Frankly, Pieter, I don't know what the motivation would be for the State or for the Customs Service in general. I don't think the State or the larger Customs Service would have a motive for this. It's just not the thing higher-level corporate officers would bother with.

But low-level customs officials, feeling their oats and wanting to get their swagger on? Say, the senior officers of a single border system?

Generally speaking, Pieter, any border enforcement service has a tendency toward institutional bias. It's not because they're bad people, either. It's because their job is to be suspicious of 'outsiders'. And years of being professionally wary and suspicious tends to create a self-sustaining cycle where slowly but surely, you see more and more of the bad in the people you're being wary of, and less of the good.

It happens with Law Enforcement, too: the longer they're on the job, the harder it is to avoid seeing people as perpetrators, to not feel like there's an 'us vs them' mentality toward the very population they're supposed to be protecting. And for the record, this tendency is accelerated and made more pronounced, the more strongly militarized the Law Enforcement or Border Guard environment is. So, flying around in battleships the way Caldari Customs does in places? Let's just say that's not helping.

In both cases, it's the kind of thing that gets reinforced over time, as new recruits come in and get told over and over again by the old, embittered, borderline paranoids above them just how bad 'those people' are. And it can easily be exacerbated by general tensions—a rise in crime, a terrorist attack, a sudden closure of the border accompanied by aggressive and belligerent rhetoric.

All this would've taken is a knot of Customs officers at or near the top of the food chain for Kassagainen to decide 'hey, we've got this flight plan here, let's hassle these guys'. And then one Customs ship captain gets twitchy, one guy—because as Morgana there points out, you guys are paranoid about this kind of thing—decides he can't tell the difference between a freighter full of empty bottles and a supercarrier stuffed with jump fuel and munitions* (and let's not be stupid here, we all know ship scanning is pretty much automatic at gates) and suddenly it's an incident.

And let's face it, Pieter, you don't have to "get the entire crews of the entire Customs squadron on board", either. It's a tense situation. It's always going to be. That one twitchy captain? He just has to rationalize the order after the fact to his bridge crew. Most of the crew of that vessel doesn't have any reason at all to even expect to know what's going on, their manning their posts and keeping an eye on the systems they're responsible for. And the crews of the other vessels? Same thing, only more removed, because their captains get tactical reporting weapons' fire, and they're giving the order to fire because something must be up, or why would that first ship start firing? No time to waste, save the facility! And the same goes for the crew of that facility, too.

But they're all involved in the 'yeah, let's pull these guys over and give them a hard time' nonsense, and none of them want to have to answer for that crap, especially when it's costing peoples' lives now. Besides, if one of those guys rats out our one twitchy ship captain, how can any of theo thers trust them? And who's going to sell out their brothers-in-uniform, the guys who go out there and risk their lives for one another every day, over some damned Gallente?

And now you've got a cover-up. No massive conspiracy by the State, no motive needed for the Custom Service itself. Just a bunch of local border cops who got too full of themselves and decided to throw their weight around, and then had to scramble to cover a mistake.

Am I saying that's totally definitely what happened? Of course not. But don't go playing the 'the State has no motive here' card. The State doesn't need a motive. Only the guys who decided to divert that convoy do, and conveniently, they're the only ones alive to tell us how they totally didn't do anything wrong.


* - And hey, just in case someone here can't tell the difference: 940,000,000kg at 136m/s (with 3 overdrives) vs 1,600,000,000kg at 211m/s. For the record, that's four times the impact energy of the freighter without the munitions. Sure, you say, but there were seven freighters! Doesn't matter. The Nyx's flattened cross-section means it's the difference between a blade, and being hit with seven punches. Each of the punches has 1/4 the impact energy of the blade, but the blade's imparting that energy into a much more focused strike zone. I can punch you in the same spot seven times, I'm not going to have nearly the same chances of shattering bones and ripping through vital organs as that blade. It's all about the energy in a single strike, and how tightly-focused the impact of that energy is.
Arataka Research Consortium
#405 - 2017-04-21 03:26:04 UTC
Let's entertain their notions for a moment, Tuulinen-haan.

Let's say that, yes, the Caldari customs officials were angry Provist types who were just itching for an excuse to gun down Quafe freighters.

If Kim's any example, do you think they could possibly have kept quiet about it? Would they even bother with a cover up for a crime that couldn't possibly help but be traced to them?

The Provists were never exactly known for their subtlety or ability to keep quiet.

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Goonswarm Federation
#406 - 2017-04-21 03:47:48 UTC
First, let's keep in mind that Kim is an example only of her own insecurities and overcompensation, and maybe a FIO infiltration and propaganda operation.

Next: you are vastly oversimplifying this by labeling them 'Provists'. They're human beings who are, every day, called upon to be both suspicious of outsiders, and authoritarian. That's their job, to be the guys 'in charge' of situations. If a situation gets out of their control, that's bad. That's what causes and feeds the authoritarian complex. Most LEOs are aware of this, and they try to work to counter its influence, but it's not an easy thing to do, especially when it's reinforced by being in command of a ship's crew.

So to lump them all in as Provists, instead of fallible human beings doing a difficult and usually thankless job isn't just incredibly dismissive and facile, it's also pretty insulting, both toward them, and toward the intelligence of everyone reading this.

I know this is hard for you to believe, Makoto, but it is possible to approve of the job groups like the Customs Service do and still demand transparency and accountability, even to question the credibility of claims like all seven flight recorders being damaged beyond recovery in the initial destruction of the ships, rather than intentionally disabled afterwards.

In fact, anyone who does value the dedication and service of various law enforcement organizations should be demanding that kind of transparency. If you support the work of the Customs Service in general, how the hel can you rationalize not wanting to make sure that malignant actos are rooted out, to ensure the public trust is properly served?
Arataka Research Consortium
#407 - 2017-04-21 04:26:50 UTC
Arrendis, ARC overwhelmingly voted in favor of transparency and information-sharing on day three of the Inquest.

So decisively that even the Society staff overseeing the vote couldn't contain themselves.

So, yes, as a Caldari Liberal, I personally believe that free sharing of information is better for stakeholders and for the market at large.

However, as a person who still finds the situation suspect, I'm very curious what more will come to light over the following weeks of the hearing on the Quafe freighter downing, and find the whole situation phenomenally strange, at a time when evidently multiple conspiracies were unfolding, including at least one unknown intelligence agency attempting to acquire a sample of Kyonoke pursuant to a weaponization study.

So, yes, I want transparency. And I'm waiting with bated breath for more.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Goonswarm Federation
#408 - 2017-04-21 05:11:15 UTC
Then why the dismissive tone? Pieter said he couldn't imagine a motive. I provided a speculative, but plausible scenario that provides a motive. Why meet that with what amounts to 'let's indulge this nonsense to say that if that were feasible, the perpetrators would be too stupid to avoid drowning in the shower'? And why bring Kim into it at all?
Caldari State
#409 - 2017-04-21 06:21:12 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Let's entertain their notions for a moment, Tuulinen-haan.

Let's say that, yes, the Caldari customs officials were angry Provist types who were just itching for an excuse to gun down Quafe freighters.

If Kim's any example, do you think they could possibly have kept quiet about it? Would they even bother with a cover up for a crime that couldn't possibly help but be traced to them?

The Provists were never exactly known for their subtlety or ability to keep quiet.

Ladies and gentlemen.

Provists weren't "those angry types", they were examples of ideal citizens. Of course if we don't take into account those guristas, who claimed to be "Provists" while stealing Navy ships.

Makoto, on other hand, is exactly one of the "angry types", you all can see how she spews her hatred and lies about Provists. While being Provist is a great honor, this annoying creature just loves to use Provists as "insult", throwing these ridiculous accusations around and looking as stupid as those gurista, who put this label on themselves. She even tried to call me a Provist, who, whether would be greatly honored to be one, never actually had the chance.

Ladies and gentlemen. Makoto is just a lier and slanderer, who tries to damage reputation of Caldari people: Caldari customs, Provists, or Caldari capsuleer officers (like yours truly). When she started doing it about me, I confronted her lies in open. She was unable to stand for her lies. You can read it here, if you need more details, when I gave her chance for a peaceful solution: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381560

This vile woman doesn't seem to want to live with Caldari in peace.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

#410 - 2017-04-21 10:47:24 UTC
Arrendis wrote:

* - And hey, just in case someone here can't tell the difference: 940,000,000kg at 136m/s (with 3 overdrives) vs 1,600,000,000kg at 211m/s. For the record, that's four times the impact energy of the freighter without the munitions. Sure, you say, but there were seven freighters! Doesn't matter. The Nyx's flattened cross-section means it's the difference between a blade, and being hit with seven punches. Each of the punches has 1/4 the impact energy of the blade, but the blade's imparting that energy into a much more focused strike zone. I can punch you in the same spot seven times, I'm not going to have nearly the same chances of shattering bones and ripping through vital organs as that blade. It's all about the energy in a single strike, and how tightly-focused the impact of that energy is.



Exactly the kind of thinking that a regular non-capsuleer non-implanted person on a stressful job will have on this kind of situation. Roll

I take pride on our educational system and on the quality of our officers, but i don´t think that everyone knows the exact stats of ships, stations and do on the fly calculations like the one you´re making on the confort of wherever you are.

(By the way, where is this location, so we can grab a drink the two of us later? Blink)

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Pandemic Legion
#411 - 2017-04-21 10:53:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Lina Ambre wrote:
the convoy of seven Obelisk class freighters was lost after being diverted to an off-grid customs holding facility several AU away from the Stargate that connects the Caldari system of Kassigainen with the Federal border system of Algogille.
They diverted themselves for no reason and then broke up exiting warp, something that never happens just by chance happened seven times all to the same convoy at the same time.
Lina Ambre wrote:
Voice recordings from the last moments of the convoy were played during the initial hearing, and appear to confirm pilots and engineering staff exchanging words regarding hull breaches, missile fire and explosions shortly after arriving in close proximity to the facility.
Their ships were breaking up but they were talking about missile fire and hull breaches. Either those ships retain amazing control while breaking up or It must happen to them all the time.

But of course all it takes is a Caldari court to make all evidence from the victims inadmissible and a hastily constructed-weeks later lie to convince every Caldari in New Eden to march in lock step and stop thinking.

As much as I love your appealing to agreeing with an 'enemy' as a debate tactic Arrendis, you are wasting your time. The people you are arguing with will make any effort to see the State as anything but mother and father.

A Caldari court is investigating a Caldari crime, expect no justice or honesty.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

#412 - 2017-04-21 11:15:55 UTC
- Order is given by Caldari prohibiting Federation ships from crossing borders.
- Federation vessels try to cross border anyway (Mistake nº1)
- Federation vessels are escorted away from the gate for inspection
- ???? (Several Mistakes were made)
- Federation vessels blow up under Caldari responsability
- Investigation ongoing with DED oversight

Stop holding so many grudges against the Caldari, things are being investigated and with proper transparency and supervision from the cluster.

It´s a strange situation? Yes.

But we just got out of a universal threat situation sorrounded by questions and shadow conspiracies involving intelligence agencies building bio-weapon, miraculous readily available antidotes, manipulation of key personel, killing of scientists, clonejacking of a VIP from one of the most respected institutions on the cluster, and you all start pointing fingers on the faction that is actually investigating the matters and suffered the heaviest casualties so far?

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#413 - 2017-04-21 12:28:33 UTC
I see the Mental Gymnastics Championships of YC 119 started early this year.
Goonswarm Federation
#414 - 2017-04-21 12:38:43 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
Exactly the kind of thinking that a regular non-capsuleer non-implanted person on a stressful job will have on this kind of situation. Roll

I take pride on our educational system and on the quality of our officers, but i don´t think that everyone knows the exact stats of ships, stations and do on the fly calculations like the one you´re making on the confort of wherever you are.

(By the way, where is this location, so we can grab a drink the two of us later? Blink)


A)Delve. Feel free to bop on down to 1dq. Fly something shiny to impress the locals.

B)Yes, exactly the kind of thinking that a combat vessel's captain should know, automatically: "a Nyx is a giant blade with a prop mod, an Obelisk is a beach-ball."

Seriously, at some point in your contortions, you might look around and see how badly you're insulting your own military academies. Yes, this is precisely the kind of information it is their job to know: threat assessment, characteristics and capabilities of different hulls, how to tell the difference between a 1-kilometer freighter and a 3-kilometer supercarrier...

Yeah. I expect a professional, career officer who's managed to rise to the rank of ship's captain in command of a ship firing cruise missiles and/or torpedoes to know these things. Maybe not the exact numbers, mind you, but yes, they should know the general range of those numbers. Exactly numbers were provided here because if I hadn't, you'd have falled back on the 'but there were seven of them nonsense that I pre-emptively took away from you.

I expect them to know that. Why don't you? Why do you expect the State to be putting people in command of battleships without making sure they're intelligent, competent, and knowledgeable? If I were one of the ship captains involved in this, guilty or innocent, I swear, other than Pieter, I'd be begging all of you to stop helping. Because you're not. Ever hear the expression 'with friends like these...'?
Goonswarm Federation
#415 - 2017-04-21 12:48:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
you all start pointing fingers on the faction that is actually investigating the matters and suffered the heaviest casualties so far?


Do you mean the faction whose citizens were responsible for the outbreaks in the first place? Or do you mean the faction whose citizens—including at least one active-duty military officer—were involved in an active plot secure and use the deadliest plague in history? Or maybe you mean the faction the larger extremist group, whose members are not all known to be either dead or apprehended, is claimed to support?

I mean, take your pick, it's all the same one.

Look, I don't actually hold the State responsible for the actions of the Kasaras and their ilk. I think it would be foolish to do so. But it does seem to me that trying to deflect criticism away from the State by saying 'we're the ones who suffered the most from what a bunch of Caldari did!' is uhm...

... yeah. Gonna say it again: Stop helping. Cuz you ain't.
Goonswarm Federation
#416 - 2017-04-21 13:02:41 UTC
I've been considering carefully how to respond to Post #409. There's a lot that could be said, but it's a honeypot for further diversion and nonsense. Ironically, I suspect that's exactly what the intention was in provoking it. And so...

Look at what you did, Makoto. You woke That Which Must Destroy The Federation. I hope you're proud of yourself.
#417 - 2017-04-21 13:18:49 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
you all start pointing fingers on the faction that is actually investigating the matters and suffered the heaviest casualties so far?


Do you mean the faction whose citizens were responsible for the outbreaks in the first place? Or do you mean the faction whose citizens—including at least one active-duty military officer—were involved in an active plot secure and use the deadliest plague in history? Or maybe you mean the faction the larger extremist group, whose members are not all known to be either dead or apprehended, is claimed to support?

I mean, take your pick, it's all the same one.

Look, I don't actually hold the State responsible for the actions of the Kasaras and their ilk. I think it would be foolish to do so. But it does seem to me that trying to deflect criticism away from the State by saying 'we're the ones who suffered the most from what a bunch of Caldari did!' is uhm...

... yeah. Gonna say it again: Stop helping. Cuz you ain't.



You have the evidence showing that Rook and Vulture manipulated the Caldari Officer and that his sister went along to stop the operation.

No one is denying that State members were involved, at least not me. But the evidence available points toward a grand orchestration, of external intelligence agencies trying to adquire a sample of Kyonoke from the Caldari and manipulating Caldari agents to do it. The magically Gallente and Minmatar pharma corps show up with a precise and efficient antidote out of the blue?

Yeah, right.

As to the border patrol, i´m not questioning they habilities, just saying that their line of work involve a lot more tension and shooting than other areas. And if the freighters represented any risk to Caldari ships and stations, the neutralization was a quite protocolar response.

1dq you say. Sure, where can we have a drink there? As for the locals joining in, i was thinking of some alone time with you, but give me a few drinks and sure, we can have company if you´re into it.

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Goonswarm Federation
#418 - 2017-04-21 14:09:42 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:

You have the evidence showing that Rook and Vulture manipulated the Caldari Officer and that his sister went along to stop the operation.

No one is denying that State members were involved, at least not me. But the evidence available points toward a grand orchestration, of external intelligence agencies trying to adquire a sample of Kyonoke from the Caldari and manipulating Caldari agents to do it. The magically Gallente and Minmatar pharma corps show up with a precise and efficient antidote out of the blue?

Yeah, right.


And no-one has proven that Vulture and Rook weren't working for Caldari Intelligence. Is it unlikely? Sure. But it hasn't been ruled out. And Akira Kasaras was convinced to assist against the initial extremist group, yes—but we have no indications of how she was convinced, whether she was originally a member, as were others in her family, or if she supported those aims and was simply acting under duress when working against them.

As for the Federation and Republic scientists... if data on something exists in the cluster, there will be those willing to pay to get it, however classified that data might be. Your supposition indicates a belief that Vulture and Rook were not Caldari agents, and strongly implies that they were working with Federal and/or Republic intelligence and R&D. But here's the thing: if the pharmacorps in question already had this cure... they wouldn't have needed the outbreak. There would have been no reason to redirect Akira Kasaras, no reason to breach the Pit. I certainly won't say it's impossible that a group with a reputation for illegal activity, like Eifyr, couldn't have made a bio-weapon, but if they had... is it reasonable to imagine the initial test would be on a Federal facility? That is, after all, where Vulture and Rook targeted their activities.

Let's face it, they'd have dropped this on Amarr Prime.

Quote:

As to the border patrol, i´m not questioning they habilities, just saying that their line of work involve a lot more tension and shooting than other areas. And if the freighters represented any risk to Caldari ships and stations, the neutralization was a quite protocolar response.


Yes, their jobs do require more tension and shooting. That's why they're trained in threat assesment, and things like, you know, knowing that freighters bounce off the Jita 4-4 undock all the damned time when they don't accelerate into warp quickly enough. Without, you know, decimating the station. Again: you're not helping, either their case, or yours.

Quote:

1dq you say. Sure, where can we have a drink there? As for the locals joining in, i was thinking of some alone time with you, but give me a few drinks and sure, we can have company if you´re into it.


Just hang out on the Keepstar, I'm sure someone will get you all taken care of. I'll be in my hangar.
Arataka Research Consortium
#419 - 2017-04-21 14:30:17 UTC
Well, if it was a rogue fleet we'll soon know. They haven't covered their tracks and the CBT is on the case. Anyone who wants to make this go away is going to have to posit and then support a rational explanation for what happened that isn't "That fleet shot everyone".

If it was a gung-ho bunch of crate peekers acting out, then I'd imagine the beatings will flow thick and fast.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

#420 - 2017-04-21 18:29:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Claudia Osyn
Diana Kim wrote:
when I gave her chance for a peaceful solution: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381560

This vile woman doesn't seem to want to live with Caldari in peace.

The fact that you consider suicide and combat a peaceful thing does not help your case....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

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