These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Let strategic cruisers refit in space without a mobile depot

Author
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#1 - 2017-04-18 10:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhyme Bittern
The point of t3 strategic cruisers is not power, but versatility. As noted by devs, they should not be better than dedicated ships, but they should be able to fill many of their various roles.

In the coming t3 balance, many of the current abilities and stats of t3 crusers will be nerfed, and rightfully so. However, their ability to fill multiple roles should be emphasised. One of the ways to do this should be to let strategic cruisers refit in space directly from their cargo bays, without having to use a mobile depot and the such. This will help the lone wolves using them immensely, because without a mobile depot their cargo bays will become free to carry alternative fits. Timers can be utilised to make sure this is not exploited.

What say you?
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#2 - 2017-04-18 11:04:39 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
The point of t3 strategic cruisers is not power, but versatility. As noted by devs, they should not be better than dedicated ships, but they should be able to fill many of their various roles.

In the coming t3 balance, many of the current abilities and stats of t3 crusers will be nerfed, and rightfully so. However, their ability to fill multiple roles should be emphasised. One of the ways to do this should be to let strategic cruisers refit in space directly from their cargo bays, without having to use a mobile depot and the such. This will help the lone wolves using them immensely, because without a mobile depot their cargo bays will become free to carry alternative fits. Timers can be utilised to make sure this is not exploited.

What say you?


The limitation on the refits is there for a reason. It would be horribly overpowered otherwise and would be abused to hell by large fleets.

Wormholer for life.

Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#3 - 2017-04-18 11:12:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhyme Bittern
Wander Prian wrote:

The limitation on the refits is there for a reason. It would be horribly overpowered otherwise and would be abused to hell by large fleets.

As noted in the OP, timers can be used to prevent this (allowing for only one refit per several minutes, for example - maybe triggered by accessing a specialised refitting bay).
The only benefit this should bring to a pilot is ease of use, plus some extra cargo space.
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#4 - 2017-04-18 13:27:03 UTC
I actually think mobile depots should be put on a list of things to consider removing from the game tbh.

Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#5 - 2017-04-18 13:34:11 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:

The limitation on the refits is there for a reason. It would be horribly overpowered otherwise and would be abused to hell by large fleets.

As noted in the OP, timers can be used to prevent this (allowing for only one refit per several minutes, for example - maybe triggered by accessing a specialised refitting bay).
The only benefit this should bring to a pilot is ease of use, plus some extra cargo space.


Refitting is limited to certain structures and ships already. There is no point in adding a exception just to save you 50m3 of space. Refitting your ship is a service that requires certain things. Either a station, a POS, a upwell-structure or a ship with a ship maintenance bay. A mobile depot is a way you pay for that ability.

Be happy you can refit your tech 3 -cruiser in space at all. For many years you couldn't switch subsystems in space at all. It made living in wormhole-space quite interesting.

Wormholer for life.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#6 - 2017-04-18 13:49:21 UTC
Just from the practical point of view. Refitting a module (module being a plug and play ship component) is one thing, but changing out subsystems changes the ships configuration completely. Just look at what changing modules does to the visual model of the ship - it's completely different. I'm not a big lore or realism gal, but come on, swapping subs on the fly is a bit much.

Is it OK to change out subs via mobile depot? I would say sure, but only if you are the only ship on grid. Changing the configuration of the ship should take time and prevent you from doing anything but refitting subs. I'd say if you are pointed or in a warp disruption bubble - no swappy.

What you suggest - changing subs on the fly on a whim would be way OP. The other part of it would be that changing subs quite often changes the slot layout of a ship. How would that work? The final part - the abuse part - every pvp t3 would have an interdiction sub and some wcs on standby as a get out of jail free card for most smaller pvp situations.

That's a big NOPE from where I sit.
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#7 - 2017-04-18 13:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhyme Bittern
Wander Prian, basically, what you are saying is "this is the way it currently is, so this is the way it should be in the future". But why exactly? I would like to understand why you think the current state of affairs is superior to my suggestion.

I think that giving t3 cruisers the ability to refit in space a little bit more comfortably than other ships will make them feel unique without changing the balance of the game.
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#8 - 2017-04-18 13:59:55 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Is it OK to change out subs via mobile depot? I would say sure, but only if you are the only ship on grid. Changing the configuration of the ship should take time and prevent you from doing anything but refitting subs. I'd say if you are pointed or in a warp disruption bubble - no swappy.


This sounds like a reasonable mechanism to minimise abuse. It can be applied to refitting without a depot as well.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#9 - 2017-04-18 14:00:42 UTC
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
I actually think mobile depots should be put on a list of things to consider removing from the game tbh.




No.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#10 - 2017-04-18 14:04:20 UTC
For this to be reasonable the hull configuration would need to be fixed to however many highs/meds/lows/drone bay and the subsystems give % boosts to dps, reps etc alongside other effects such as drone bay, nullification etc.

On top of this the maximum dps, reps, tank etc would need to be pretty much limited to the best in class tech II hull for each. In this case you could have the dps of a deimos, but also the drawbacks, but also could reconfigure to the eWar capabilities of a lachesis etc.

To do this would need to mean carrying the modules in hold and therefore meaning a tech III carrying enough modules for say 3 configs should be putting 3 x the ISK in space whilst only having the utility of 1/3 of that ISK available.

This could be achieved by making the subsystems behave as scripted modules. The 'scripts' would be created from tech III goods and would basically be data chips that can be loaded to reconfigure the focus of the subsystem. So the Drone Focus Chip would boost drone power on a proteus much like the Guristas bonus. Switch to the Hybrids Focus Chip then you get dps boost on hybrids with a corresponding decrease in speed/resists/whatever.

The Focus Chips should be about as expensive as the current subsystems to keep the Tech III market relatively stable.

This should give greater flexibility in the hulls but without the currently OP nature they have in certain configs
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#11 - 2017-04-18 14:10:31 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Is it OK to change out subs via mobile depot? I would say sure, but only if you are the only ship on grid. Changing the configuration of the ship should take time and prevent you from doing anything but refitting subs. I'd say if you are pointed or in a warp disruption bubble - no swappy.


This sounds like a reasonable mechanism to minimise abuse. It can be applied to refitting without a depot as well.







How would you address that my subsystem swap took away 2 high slots and gave me +1 mid and +1 low slots??


How do you prevent me (read as everyone in small gang pvp) from throwing on my cloaky and nullifier subs, adding a few wcs and leaving any fight that isn't going my way?


Agreeing with my opinion is always great for my e-ego, but you need to address the real problems I presented.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#12 - 2017-04-18 14:16:01 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
For this to be reasonable the hull configuration would need to be fixed to however many highs/meds/lows/drone bay and the subsystems give % boosts to dps, reps etc alongside other effects such as drone bay, nullification etc.

On top of this the maximum dps, reps, tank etc would need to be pretty much limited to the best in class tech II hull for each. In this case you could have the dps of a deimos, but also the drawbacks, but also could reconfigure to the eWar capabilities of a lachesis etc.

To do this would need to mean carrying the modules in hold and therefore meaning a tech III carrying enough modules for say 3 configs should be putting 3 x the ISK in space whilst only having the utility of 1/3 of that ISK available.

This could be achieved by making the subsystems behave as scripted modules. The 'scripts' would be created from tech III goods and would basically be data chips that can be loaded to reconfigure the focus of the subsystem. So the Drone Focus Chip would boost drone power on a proteus much like the Guristas bonus. Switch to the Hybrids Focus Chip then you get dps boost on hybrids with a corresponding decrease in speed/resists/whatever.

The Focus Chips should be about as expensive as the current subsystems to keep the Tech III market relatively stable.

This should give greater flexibility in the hulls but without the currently OP nature they have in certain configs



CCP can't seem to put an AB bonus on my enyo during the AF balance pass and you want all this to happen? What you speak of is a complete rework of T3, not a balance pass. It's too complex. I would prefer that CCP pulls off a reasonable balancing act and not redesign T3 into a whole new set of problems.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#13 - 2017-04-18 14:22:16 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
blurb waffle etc...



CCP can't seem to put an AB bonus on my enyo during the AF balance pass and you want all this to happen? What you speak of is a complete rework of T3, not a balance pass. It's too complex. I would prefer that CCP pulls off a reasonable balancing act and not redesign T3 into a whole new set of problems.


Ahh I didn't say I wanted it, just suggested it as a way it could work. Best bet IMO is to simplify the current tech II system. Fixing the slot layout per hull and using scripted subs to achieve the same effects would do this. e.g. if a proteus has 5 high slots then a scripted offensive sub purely for hybrids would add say 20-30% dps, but drop max velocity (or whatever) due to rerouted power.

Modelling the changes as scripts allows for easier switching out in code terms (reload times), and also allows for easier balancing by simply modifying the script % bonus.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#14 - 2017-04-18 14:33:39 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

Is it OK to change out subs via mobile depot? I would say sure, but only if you are the only ship on grid. Changing the configuration of the ship should take time and prevent you from doing anything but refitting subs. I'd say if you are pointed or in a warp disruption bubble - no swappy.


This sounds like a reasonable mechanism to minimise abuse. It can be applied to refitting without a depot as well.







How would you address that my subsystem swap took away 2 high slots and gave me +1 mid and +1 low slots??


How do you prevent me (read as everyone in small gang pvp) from throwing on my cloaky and nullifier subs, adding a few wcs and leaving any fight that isn't going my way?


Agreeing with my opinion is always great for my e-ego, but you need to address the real problems I presented.


I think this was addressed... it shouldn't be allowed if any other pilot is on grid. Or did I read that wrong.
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#15 - 2017-04-18 14:39:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhyme Bittern
Serendipity Lost wrote:


How would you address that my subsystem swap took away 2 high slots and gave me +1 mid and +1 low slots??

How do you prevent me (read as everyone in small gang pvp) from throwing on my cloaky and nullifier subs, adding a few wcs and leaving any fight that isn't going my way?



The exact same way it is done today with mobile depots:

1. Moving the extra high slot modules to your cargo, or ejecting them if your cargo is full.
2. Using a timer (if I'm not mistaken), preventing you from refitting for several minutes after you were involved in combat in any way.

Perhaps you think that some extra measures should be taken, and this may be correct. But it has nothing to do with my suggestion, because the problems you describe are related to refitting in space in general, not to refitting in space without a mobile depot specifically.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2017-04-18 15:00:43 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
The point of t3 strategic cruisers is not power, but versatility. As noted by devs, they should not be better than dedicated ships, but they should be able to fill many of their various roles.

In the coming t3 balance, many of the current abilities and stats of t3 crusers will be nerfed, and rightfully so. However, their ability to fill multiple roles should be emphasised. One of the ways to do this should be to let strategic cruisers refit in space directly from their cargo bays, without having to use a mobile depot and the such. This will help the lone wolves using them immensely, because without a mobile depot their cargo bays will become free to carry alternative fits. Timers can be utilised to make sure this is not exploited.

What say you?


What nerf do you think CCP should apply to the entire ship to counter for such a buff since they are already perceived as overpowered without being able to freely refit without a fitting service?
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2017-04-18 15:16:25 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
I actually think mobile depots should be put on a list of things to consider removing from the game tbh.




No.

Yes.

~~

Regarding the OP, only if they nerfed each subsystem into the ground. Which they should be doing regardless.
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#18 - 2017-04-18 15:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhyme Bittern
Frostys Virpio wrote:

What nerf do you think CCP should apply to the entire ship to counter for such a buff since they are already perceived as overpowered without being able to freely refit without a fitting service?

I think that they should make t3 ships slightly inferior to dedicated t2 ships - a bit less dps than hacs, a bit less scan strength than covops, and so on. I think that this is already being worked on in the coming rebalance that CCP mentioned in fanfest. My suggestion is not making t3 cruisers that much stronger, just easier to work with as multi-role ships, so I do not think a special extra nerf is necessary.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2017-04-18 15:20:35 UTC
Rhyme Bittern wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

What nerf do you think CCP should apply to the entire ship to counter for such a buff since they are already perceived as overpowered without being able to freely refit without a fitting service?

I think that they should make t3 ship slightly inferior to dedicated t2 ships - a bit less dps than hacs, a bit less scan strength than covops, and so on. I think that this is already being worked on in the coming rebalance that ccp mentioned in fanfest. My suggestion is not making t3 cruisers that much stronger, just easier to work with as a multi-role ships, so I do not think a special extra nerf is necessary.


They are alraedy supposed to be below T2 in their dedicated roles so that state will already balanced if we ever reach it. What you propose a a blatan buff to the ship so it should be countered by a nerf unless your goat is a thinly veiled "Make sure my ship is still OP after the long needed re-balance" request.
Rhyme Bittern
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#20 - 2017-04-18 15:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhyme Bittern
Frostys Virpio wrote:


They are alraedy supposed to be below T2 in their dedicated roles so that state will already balanced if we ever reach it. What you propose a a blatan buff to the ship so it should be countered by a nerf unless your goat is a thinly veiled "Make sure my ship is still OP after the long needed re-balance" request.


As far as I know, this is not currently the case. Tengus, for example, seem to out-perform almost all other subcaps on many pve situations, the Proteus' dps matches that of several battleships, and so on. My personal goal, if you ask, is to have a lovely Legion that can go from highsec to null, do some pve signature sites there and come back - something I can't currently do because with the necessary modules, subsystems and mobile depot I have no cargo space left for loot. I assume that after the coming rebalance it will not perform as well as it does now, and I find it understandable.
123Next pageLast page